| Author |
Topic: Solid vs Killer workouts? |
WI MTP
Cool Runner |
 posted Apr-24-2007 11:56 AM
  
My mentality has always been tear yourself down as far as possible to build you back up in the area of quality workouts.So a 5-4-3-2-1 @ T was better than 4-3-2-1 was better than 5x2 was better than 4 miles @ T. I was never a billboard for promoting running as I waddled around the office - Sore most of the day after doing the toughest quality workout I could stand to do. Now I am rethinking - Maybe a killer T-Paced or I-Paced workout once a month is fine, but I recover so much better and feel so much stronger for the next quality workout with just "Solid" workouts. What are your thoughts?
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mainers
Cool Runner |
posted Apr-24-2007 12:09 PM
i'm similar to youyou used to have to scrape me off the track i hammered my workouts so hard. that on top of my low mileage was a recipe for disaster. however i never got injured too much and my fastest times in races seem to have occurred around then last couple of years i found this approach was beginning to break me down and my race times were not getting any faster so i'm adopting a more cautious approach now, hitting the workouts 'solid' and always having in mind what I am trying to achieve with the workout. hopefully this will soon show itself in my race performances but it's not at the moment! as you say though, i still think a 'killer' workout is necessary every so often, just not every week! ------------------
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fredurie
Cool Runner |
posted Apr-24-2007 12:14 PM
Bob Kennedy was running 4 laps-3 laps-2 laps-1 lap all out with Komen and
other Kenyans.It worked for them.However, most coaches like to run workouts at specific speeds, and never
all out.
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AndyHass
Cool Runner |
posted Apr-24-2007 12:35 PM
It depends on the purpose of the workout, and where you are in your training cycle.It should be pretty clear that if you leave it all on the track every time you do a workout, you're asking to fry yourself. You just can't do it forever. I typically focus increasingly on harder workouts as I approach key races (for 10K and under, there is absolutely no reason to kill yourself in marathon workouts, at least with respect to anaerobic intervals). Easier workouts earlier in the plan condition you to handle increasingly hard workouts, while being easy enough to recover quickly and keep your volume up. As you run harder workouts, your volume will necessarily fall to get more recovery. In the month or weeks right before a target 5K/10K, your interval workouts might be very hard but you'll need that experience for those relatively short races. Marathon workouts are a whole other issue. Now we're talking a different type of fatigue. I've experimented some with long, hard workouts for the marathon, like 15-mile MP runs, finishing the last half of a 20-miler at MP, etc. What I have found is that a very large amount of caution needs to be applied when dealing with the type of fatigue these workouts produce. Unlike track intervals, where you will always recover in a couple days (unless you are running way too hard), the ramifications of these workouts could linger for a week. Last fall I made the mistake of running such workouts on consecutive weekends, and I got burned by it even though I'd felt fine going into the second one. When I'm in shape, a track workout for the 10K may be hard the last couple repeats but I never take it to the point where I'm leaving lunch on the track or limping around afterwards. One way I avoid this is short recoveries; this assures I'm never running intervals fast enough to do this. It's been awhile since I did long recoveries and ran intervals sub-3K race pace.
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megapronator
Cool Runner |
posted Apr-24-2007 02:04 PM
A couple years ago I was sitting around with a group of top runners and each person was sharing what their best training tip was. Ryan Hall said he had learned to always finish a workout feeling like he could to a little more. The rest of the group agreed. Obviously it is working for Ryan...I myself was always one to go to the wall on the hard days in the past, but I have learned I get no additional physical benefit from that last 5%, and once my form starts breaking down the workout becomes counterproductive. That advice should be tempered a little with a few points: (1) As long as you are making sure you are recovered between killer workouts, they really aren't that bad, and the risk is fairly low. I think at 95% workout is better than a 100% workout, but not by much. Some runners thrive off killer workouts and it doesn't seem to cause a problem. (2) Doing killer workouts in training does have a psychological benefit. Especially if you don't race often, they can be very helpful for simulating a race which I think is valuable. (3) How hard is "killer" is a subjective thing. When an elite runner finishes a workout saying he felt controlled and like he could have done more, he still might have running far harder than what a typical runner would describe as very hard. ------------------
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laker
Cool Runner |
posted Apr-24-2007 02:55 PM
Pretty much agree with what everyone has said so far, especially Andy. I've learned the hard way not to leave my best workouts on the track/road. All my pr's were set when I was 29-30 off of low mileage/high intensity, but I think it fried me prematurely. I am a much better runner now for my age, I believe because of much more consistent controlled speedwork, with alot higher volumn.
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tuscaloosarunner
Cool Runner |
posted Apr-24-2007 03:01 PM
For me, I've come to believe in a few things:1) The nature of progression: we build-up, recover, adapt; add new stress, recover, adapt to new stresses, etc. The goal is to maximize progression w/out breaking the body down completely. 2) Training should reflect the needs of the goal event: aerobic:anaerobic, etc. And also adress over-pace, under-pace, and pace work. 3) Training should address weaknesses of the athlete. So, what does this mean in terms of "killer" workouts. It means, to me, that you need to build up to them per cycle, and what constitutes a killer workout is different depending on goal and phase of training (Andy said this well). I'm training for the 5k right now. I have piss poor speed. Like most periodized runners, I first worked on base, then worked on aerobic capacity, and now I'm about to work on speed before the goal events. However, I still stayed in touch w/ as many paces as possible throughout the training cycle; I simply gave them different emphasis depending on the meso-cycle and/or phase. What's more killer: 6x600m@1500P w/ 200m Jog or 4x1600m@5kP w/ 400m Jog? Both workouts are hard and hurt, but in very different ways. But more importantly, the workouts are worked-up to, felt "easier" (bad word, I know) w/ each subsequent attempt, and had specific time and place. Now, this Fall, I'm going to give the marathon a shot. Not a real need to develop 1500 speed. BUT, there will be time to work in/outs @ 5k/MP--the question is knowing when to do this workout. Have I built up to this workout? Am I ready to handle this workload? My point, I guess, is to think of Quality work in both macro and micro senses. How will it help development of my immediate goal? More importantly, where does it fit in my overall development as a runner?
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laker
Cool Runner |
posted Apr-24-2007 03:45 PM
I predict Tusca will explode from sensory overload before he ever runs a marathon. Too much information to process.
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tuscaloosarunner
Cool Runner |
posted Apr-24-2007 04:02 PM
quote:
Originally posted by laker:
I predict Tusca will explode from sensory overload before he ever runs a marathon. Too much information to process.
You should see my poor students...
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WI MTP
Cool Runner |
posted Apr-24-2007 04:27 PM
A lot of good things for me to ponder - Thank you allTo me Killer is relative to you pace to reach certain intensity levels, the time spend at those intensity levels and amount of recovery A good example where I have missed it in the past - Marathon training 5-4-3-2-1 @ T. I saw this work out in relation to an elite plan - So lets assume T=4:42 (Give or take) 15 miles @ T = 1:10:30
If I my T = 5:42 - I spend 1:25:30 @ T (21% more time) Like all ideas in training - Experiment and see how I respond - I do like the short recovery idea - To recover before the next one (Past failure) - To work on my weakness (Speed)
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AndyHass
Cool Runner |
posted Apr-24-2007 07:55 PM
quote:
Originally posted by WI MTP:
A lot of good things for me to ponder - Thank you allTo me Killer is relative to you pace to reach certain intensity levels, the time spend at those intensity levels and amount of recovery A good example where I have missed it in the past - Marathon training 5-4-3-2-1 @ T. I saw this work out in relation to an elite plan - So lets assume T=4:42 (Give or take) 15 miles @ T = 1:10:30
If I my T = 5:42 - I spend 1:25:30 @ T (21% more time) Like all ideas in training - Experiment and see how I respond - I do like the short recovery idea - To recover before the next one (Past failure) - To work on my weakness (Speed)
I did this workout as part of a 20-miler. It was TOUGH. I think I hit 5:30 on the 5-mile and 5:25s for the others.
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mainers
Cool Runner |
posted Apr-24-2007 08:41 PM
Tusca, when's your book coming out?(don't know how to insert those little smiley faces)
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RunForFun
Cool Runner |
posted Apr-25-2007 11:16 AM
tuscaloosarunner - I am very periodized over the year + I am in a 6 year macro-cycle My year consists of - getting fat and out of shape in December and January A period of Higher Mileage and only LAT work February to March- Slight reduction in mileage and adding Vo2 and MP runs April until late spring marathon. Sustain LAT / Vo2 and mileage - End of July Aug - Really crank Mileage, LAT & MP - Dump Vo2 September - Slight cut back in mileage - Add back Vo2 October - Fall Marathon November - Just enjoy running December - Repeat last December One of these years I will build base in December and January and have a break through year instead of small improvements.
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PeytonH
Cool Runner |
posted Apr-25-2007 12:59 PM
I feel the same as most of you--- there is a time for every type of workout, both tremendously difficult and appropriately taxing. For me, I enjoy doing longer track repeats (800m-2K) @ 5K-10K pace and tempo runs most of all, simply because they play to my strenghts as a runner. However, I force myself into the torturous realm of highly anaerobic speedwork at least 2-3 times per month (during my competitive seasons). My most recent workouts that I would consider "Killer" are as follows: 6x800m @ 3200m GP w/ 90sec jog recovery 16x200m @ 30-31sec ("F" pace) w/ a 400m jog 25min Fartlek w/ 15x30-60sec HARD ("T" Pace+5sec Rec.) 4x400m "R", 4x600m "R", 4x200m "F" w/ 1:00 Recovery
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RunForFun
Cool Runner |
posted Apr-25-2007 01:36 PM
Andy - 5-4-3-2-1 @ 4:42 (Elite runner) would really be
23:30 @ T
18:48 @ T
14:06 @ T
9:24 @T
4:42 @ TWhen I think of it in terms of time - It is much less intimidating than 5-4-3-2-1
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laker
Cool Runner |
posted Apr-25-2007 01:52 PM
[QUOTE]Originally posted by RunForFun:
[B]tuscaloosarunner - I am very periodized over the year + I am in a 6 year macro-cycle My wife periodizes about once a month.
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tuscaloosarunner
Cool Runner |
posted Apr-25-2007 01:57 PM
quote:
Originally posted by laker:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by RunForFun:
[B]tuscaloosarunner - I am very periodized over the year + I am in a 6 year macro-cycle My wife periodizes about once a month.
oh come on Laker, that's too easy...
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laker
Cool Runner |
posted Apr-26-2007 11:34 AM
quote:
Originally posted by tuscaloosarunner:
oh come on Laker, that's too easy...
Sorry, I'm a little slow at work right now.
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sue
Cool Runner |
posted Apr-29-2007 08:57 AM
quote:
Originally posted by laker:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by RunForFun:
[B]tuscaloosarunner - I am very periodized over the year + I am in a 6 year macro-cycle My wife periodizes about once a month.
well, that's good news!!
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verses
Member |
posted Apr-29-2007 09:22 AM
There's a thread in the ultra forum presently with pertinent information on recovery from hard workouts (intensity or duration, either.) If you've read Lore of Running or any modern exercise phys texts you will have seen this before.
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verses
Member |
posted Apr-29-2007 09:26 AM
Additionally, when I began running I transferred my soccer and martial arts training background to the new sport, which I believe was a grand mistake. Destroy yourself in every workout is a common M.O. in both realms. I imagine that this is why I was injured so frequently and have had recurrent injuries as a result.
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verses
Member |
posted Apr-29-2007 09:29 AM
And yet another post with the link to the aforementioned thread -- apologies for being scatterbrained  http://www.coolrunning.com/forums/Forum30/HTML/002154.shtml
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