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Periodization vs. the Complex System

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Author	Topic: Periodization vs. the Complex System
TheNeedToRun Cool Runner	posted Jan-25-2006 08:32 AM Hi, Grateful for opinion & personal experiences from marathoners in this forum whether you are in favour of: 1) Periodization aka the Lydiard, Daniels, or Pfitzinger way peaking 1-2 times a year. or 2) The Complex System aka the Australian way (Clohessy, Wardlaw, Moneghetti) whereby you do the same training structure all year around. Typical week consists of 2h:30m weekend run, 1h:45m midweek run, Mona or Deek fartlek, hill fartlek, & morning runs in varying terrains. Which method works for you best and why? Thanks in advance for sharing. IP: Logged
AndyHass Cool Runner	posted Jan-25-2006 11:07 AM Neither. Doing the same thing year round is a great way to get into a rut. Straight periodization (aka Lydiard), IMO, requires specializing too much in one type of training for too long to the exclusion of others. I periodize somewhat, but still mix all types of runs into all periods. The emphasis just changes. IP: Logged
fredurie Cool Runner	posted Jan-25-2006 12:51 PM Ask Denton about Clohessy type training. Or Mopak. [This message has been edited by fredurie (edited Jan-25-2006).] IP: Logged
runfastcoach Cool Runner	posted Jan-25-2006 02:07 PM Both have value. If you race fairly often, then the complex system of Clohessy, adopted by others like Wardlaw, works very well. Additionally, you are patient and ride it out, it can be perfect for long-term development, too. The periodization model, labled as such by Soviet researcher Mateyev, has merit, particularly if you wish to reach peak form for a paticular race. The Soviets tried various models and concluded that two peaks per years was the best approach. Tinman IP: Logged
joplus Cool Runner	posted Jan-25-2006 02:29 PM quote: Originally posted by fredurie: Ask Denton about Clohessy type training. Or Mopak. I tried, but I just got his voicemail. IP: Logged
McNamee Cool Runner	posted Jan-25-2006 06:28 PM Great thread. I'm working on periodization. Right now in base phase of 100+ mile weeks. VERY tough seeing my teammates running 2:00 800's and sub 4:30 miles. Not that I could but...(these are the same guys I'll be running Boston with.) In addition, While I was racing 5k's at close to 5:30 pace last October, I can barely break 7:00's at the moment. All LSD on the base stuff. THAT said, I did the same approach last year prepping for Boston. My 1st "real" race, the New Bedford 1/2 in March yielded me 5 (FIVE) Pr's in 1(one) race. Hoping for the same this year. Final point: I need mental down time. I find that periodization gives me a mental break from racing, lets me regroup and look forward to the next year/season. My .02 ------------------ My Profile IP: Logged
denton Cool Runner	posted Jan-25-2006 07:19 PM ....IMHO i would say that u can't go wrong with the complex system......but having said tha it is also periodized just that certain parts (ie the odd long time trials or racing) fits into race preparation. At the very least i would say that the complex system is excellent as a base phase......just enough to keep u interested and sharp, but not enough to hurt your nervous system and aerobic base. I've always followed a complex style buildup (ie fartleks and tempos with weekend long and mid week run) and then gone into a more tradtitonal multi based pre comp and racing phase (ie repeat miles, 400's etc....). Understand though that even in the complex system they buildup to the larger weeks and back off for racing.....I've always argued that many dist runners aren't doing anything wrong with the traditonal interval work, etc.....in their pre comp and comp phase...my argument has always been in doing those things in the buildup phase, hence why i support complex training concepts so strongly....the other advanatge is heir is no question ina cmplex training planning...same thing week after week...no thinking, just doing........ IP: Logged
runfastcoach Cool Runner	posted Jan-25-2006 09:01 PM I have promoted the notion that base training need not be strictly LSD. IN fact nearly all the great coaches have said the same. Lydiard, Van Aaken, on an on never said do just LSD. None of them! I concluded long ago that injury rates are higher for runners who do strictly LSD in base training - not so much during the base but in the early comp phase when the transition is rather difficult. Even using aerobic fartlek and modest tempo running in the base makes a big difference. Tinman IP: Logged
GoDawgGo Cool Runner	posted Jan-26-2006 10:28 AM Could anybody post a link or cite some references with regards to "Clohessy Type Training" as I am unfamiliar with the methodology. Thanks. IP: Logged
fredurie Cool Runner	posted Jan-26-2006 11:29 AM quote: Originally posted by GoDawgGo: Could anybody post a link or cite some references with regards to "Clohessy Type Training" as I am unfamiliar with the methodology. Thanks. http://www.coolrunning.com/forums/Forum9/HTML/001251.shtml IP: Logged
megapronator Cool Runner	posted Jan-26-2006 02:01 PM Tinman - I have a fairly prominent coach who has me doing a very much Lydiard type schedule. It has very sharp transitions, which as I understand it is typical of Lydiard. I've read one of Lydiard's books, and my coach got much of this schedule directly from Lydiard and Nobby themselves. Basically, every 4 weeks once a purely base training period is over, the schedule changes into something completely different. It is true that base training isn't strictly LSD as most people think of it, as I'm doing a fair amount of training along the lines of "best aerobic effort" which is ending up something faster than just easy, but still well short of LT pace. I do find the transitions are very rough, and likely contributed to my injury problems last fall. Other athletes of his have had more clear cut injury issues due the the harsh transitions in training. Personally, for myself and the runners I coach, I like mixing in a little of everything year round, and the periodization come from gradual and relatively subtle changes in the mixture of training. While this might lessen the peak just a bit, it decreases the odds of mistiming the peak, decreases injury problems as Tinman said, and allows for better and less damaging racing in the off-peak times. For now, however, I'm giving my coach's approach a chance to see if that can take me to the next level when properly directed. ------------------ About Me IP: Logged
DanMoriarity Cool Runner	posted Jan-26-2006 03:48 PM My coach follows the Portuguese methodology which is fairly similar to the Australian model. Basically it involves 2 faster workouts a week, one of short reps or hills at faster than goal race pace and one of longer reps at race pace. The rest is all steady mileage, with some faster finishes or strides thrown in at the end of some of the runs. The basic pattern remains pretty much the same throughout the year, although there is some cycling up and down of mileage totals depending on the season, and there is a definite progression in the number of interval reps and intensity. One thing that's a bit different, and frankly I'm not sure I agree with, is that he doesn't believe long runs of more than 90 minutes are necessary or desireable unless you're in a specific marathon buildup. It seems to work, though, as the Portuguese have produced more than their fair share of great distance runners over the years. IP: Logged
RTCRUNR Cool Runner	posted Jan-26-2006 05:10 PM I'm on a multi-pace/complex system. Depending on goal races coming up, there's times when I'm doing more mileage and longer intervals and others when I'm doing the opposite, but I like to work a variety of systems throughout the year and I like to be somewhat ready to race throughout the year, so that's what works best for me. When I've tried to do more of a straight base then onto other phases, I haven't been as successful. IP: Logged
denton Cool Runner	posted Jan-26-2006 06:47 PM Dan, i know what u mena. The most influential book/coach i have ever followed and reflects my overall idals to training is Hary Wilson. The only thing i really disagree with him was in his long runs...he advocated only 10-12 milers for 5-10km runners.....I have always had problems with that as i found that the 2 hr run was quite important... IP: Logged
DanMoriarity Cool Runner	posted Jan-26-2006 10:26 PM quote: Originally posted by denton: Dan, i know what u mena. The most influential book/coach i have ever followed and reflects my overall idals to training is Hary Wilson. The only thing i really disagree with him was in his long runs...he advocated only 10-12 milers for 5-10km runners.....I have always had problems with that as i found that the 2 hr run was quite important... Yeah, if I was training on my own I'd be doing 2 hr long runs every week. But on the other hand, my coach sent me the day by day training schedule of Alberto Chaica ( 2:09 PR and 8th in the Athens Olympic marathon ahead of Tergat ) for the 4 months before the Olympics and he only did 4 runs of 2 hours or more in the entire 4 months. He did run up to 169 miles per week with several weeks over 150 so I guess if you're doing that much mileage maybe you don't need so many long runs. I can email you the schedule if you like. IP: Logged
ljwoodw Cool Runner	posted Jan-26-2006 10:43 PM At this point, periodization seems to have been pretty effective for me. A large part of that, I think, is that I truly believe in it. I do like to soften the edges a little bit, by giving myself a couple flex days each week that gradually become something more intense as the weeks go by. As you've probably seen, they are progression runs and light fartleks at the moment, but down the road, I'll block them out as tough interval workouts. The general idea worked for me last fall, leading to a string of really strong races between 10/9 and 11/7 ------------------ My Profile IP: Logged
denton Cool Runner	posted Jan-27-2006 01:15 AM Dan, thanks...there wasa big thread last yr on 'letsrun' of his training...actually quite a few concepts i liked in his training (ie long fartleks and work off active recoveries ie 8 x 3mins off 2mins med pace which is a fave session i like and 20 x 60-hard-60med and hill work) rather than the canove method things like 4 x 5km.....more in line with my personality..... IP: Logged
TheNeedToRun Cool Runner	posted Jan-27-2006 06:21 AM denton raised an interesting point. The speedwork in Clohessy system consist of short reps. Moneghetti did 15-90 secs hard (10k to tempo pace?) with equal 'float' as recovery. Deek did 8x400m in 64-72secs (5k to MP ?) with 200m float in 48 secs (easy pace?), 14 mins all up for the 5k. Daniels & Tinman are in favour of longer intervals (1000-1600m or at least 4 mins) at VO2max or CV with recovery jogs. Do these workouts serve the same purpose? IP: Logged
denton Cool Runner	posted Jan-27-2006 11:11 PM I would say yes.......if u look at deek's 8 x 400m he was pretty much doing a 5km pace session phsyilogy wise, but he was doing it all at once as opposed to say doing it interval style (ie 4 x mile off 90sec at 5km pace....so the interval style session would be say 21 mins where as deek did his in say 14 mins (i've found a good rule of thumb is that deek's 400's equals what you'll do for 5km....ie what u run for the 4800m is what you'll run for 5km)....not saying that either one is better or lesser, but rather that parts may suit the athlete's physically and mentality.....i know from tiem to time i hate doing true blue reps/intervals becuase of the forced rests..sometimes i find that a deek/moneghetti style session allows one to get into a rythym..... ....then there is the concept of belief in what one is doing.....deek believed that what he was doing was correct...someone else may find that they don't believe in what he did.... "The speedwork in Clohessy system consist of short reps. Moneghetti did 15-90 secs hard (10k to tempo pace?) with equal 'float' as recovery. Deek did 8x400m in 64-72secs (5k to MP ?) with 200m float in 48 secs (easy pace?), 14 mins all up for the 5k. Daniels & Tinman are in favour of longer intervals (1000-1600m or at least 4 mins) at VO2max or CV with recovery jogs. Do these workouts serve the same purpose?" IP: Logged
runfastcoach Cool Runner	posted Jan-28-2006 12:43 AM Years ago I scheduled a workout of 5 x 800m, float 400m every other Wednesday and 5 x 1 mile on the opposite Wed. The results were good - and consistent. In the off-season, the reps were no faster than LT pace. I think a runner doing regular road races would benefit from trying such and approach. I know that a couple 30 minute 10k road racers I coached used those workouts effectively for the year and half I coached each one (not at the same time). One ran under 2:20 in the marathon using this approach, though I think he could have run 2:15 had he done more long tempo running and less racing. He had really good endurance but little speed. Mileage for one runner was about 85 per week and the other was 95-105 per week. One lived in Spain (he was a Canadian teacher of Spanish-English working over there) and the other was from Colorado. I would liked to have worked with them longer to see if they would have had continued progress using a very basic format. I think it is fair to say I was giving them fairly bland workouts (same thing every two week cycle). I'd probably do it differently now, but oh well. Live and learn! Tinman IP: Logged
denton Cool Runner	posted Jan-28-2006 11:56 AM tinman, who was the canadian????? when was this???? You mentioned longer tempo running. I got into thsi over the past summer.....i found i never really adapted to it.....how often for the longer tempo and what distance/pace/effort do expect from such a session??? (ie i used a HR monitor most of the time at around 80-83% MHR). I didn't find the sessions that difficult to do, but did find that i would be 'deadlegged' (ie no zip) to my legs and found that my form/mechanics suffered at times....thoughts????? IP: Logged
nike84 Cool Runner	posted Jan-28-2006 12:38 PM quote: Originally posted by TheNeedToRun: Hi, Grateful for opinion & personal experiences from marathoners in this forum whether you are in favour of: 1) Periodization aka the Lydiard, Daniels, or Pfitzinger way peaking 1-2 times a year. or 2) The Complex System aka the Australian way (Clohessy, Wardlaw, Moneghetti) whereby you do the same training structure all year around. Typical week consists of 2h:30m weekend run, 1h:45m midweek run, Mona or Deek fartlek, hill fartlek, & morning runs in varying terrains. Which method works for you best and why? Thanks in advance for sharing. After running for 35 years and trying many different methods I would probably go with the complex system. A long run of 2 hours, midweek run of 75-90 minutes, some sort of interval, fartlek or tempo run 1-2times per week and days of 2x35-45 min runs was pretty standard for us "old school guys". Most of the time it was done on hilly trails or grass or roads. The mixture of surfaces and terrain helped a lot. Denton if you talk to some of the older guys in your area eg. Robbie, Art or some of the Kajak crew from that time I think you'll find that was the standard at the time though there may have been some variations in the programs. As for the longer tempo runs. BR and some us would do quicker 10 mile runs sometimes around 55-57 minutes. Arthur Taylor used to coach up here and had a good group of runners at one time-some of the sessions included a 5 x 2mile workout or one he called winders that consisted of running 100m on the track and floating the corners. Don B used to help me out and I would do 5 x1 mile on the track or some times 5 x 5 mins in Mission Creek. Lotd of different things you can do in your training to make it interesting. What a great thread. Great to see Tinman on here. IP: Logged
DanMoriarity Cool Runner	posted Jan-28-2006 12:48 PM quote: Originally posted by denton: Dan, thanks...there wasa big thread last yr on 'letsrun' of his training...actually quite a few concepts i liked in his training (ie long fartleks and work off active recoveries ie 8 x 3mins off 2mins med pace which is a fave session i like and 20 x 60-hard-60med and hill work) rather than the canove method things like 4 x 5km.....more in line with my personality..... I remember the thread from letsrun. The info Antonio sent me is the same schedule as he posted in the thread, just in an excel spreadsheet format. I agree with you on prefering the shorter stuff as opposed to 4-5km reps. I'm sure either is helpful, but I've done 4x4km on the track at MP and it wasn't much fun. I'd much prefer to do those fartlek sessions off in the woods somewhere. IP: Logged
runfastcoach Cool Runner	posted Jan-28-2006 06:19 PM I normally don't mention the specific names of runners I have either coached or advised, nor the coaches that I advise, unless I know that they don't mind their names being mentioned. The Candain I coached was 2-3 years ago. He was a very bright guy in his 20s who loved his sport and did a good job in racing on the roads and xcountry. Last I knew, he was still in Spain teaching. About HR for tempo runs, it ranges from 85-92% for fit runners (not novice runners). I don't think that below 85% is sufficiently challenging tempo effort for most serious runners. Remember, use YOUR real max heart rate to determine training heart rates, NOT some mythical 220-your age formula which has a normal error range of plus or minus 15 beats. Tinman IP: Logged
denton Cool Runner	posted Jan-28-2006 07:49 PM KM..... funny how i know of the old kajaks guys ( ie arty, paul, graeme, etc.....doing 10 miler yet i have never seen any of that while i've been affiliated with the club....only heard of it Klassen would mention as a youngster how he used to hang on their heels for it.... tinman...just curious that's all....wasn't sure if it was a few yrs back or many moons ago.....never knew of any canadian 2:20ish guy who was in spain......if he is the age u mention i would 1) know of him or 2) know him...... don't go by the 'mythical' HR nos.......use the tried and true 6 x 30-40 sec hill......on the other side also realized that my 'feel' is almost bang on with the 'mythical' nos as well........ ....almost found that doing 22-25 kms kills me while doing 17-19 does little....one of my fav sessions is 5 x 2kms off 1km cruisy (ie about 20-30 sec slower), but i do it a LT for the 2kms...or 2 x 3km-1km 30 sec slower-2km-1km 30 sec slower and then km at lT and one km 30 sec slower....i actually run closer to about 1-2 km longer in total as i the kms are longer than a km IP: Logged

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