| Author |
Topic: The Kenyan Way |
DanMoriarity
Cool Runner |
 posted Jan-22-2004 01:39 PM
   
I just bought a copy of " Train Hard Win Easy : the Kenyan Way " by Toby Tanser. It's an extremely informative book containing biographies and training info on dozens of Kenyan runners who specialize in distances of 800m to the marathon, as well as advice from the top Kenyan coaches and insight into the lifestyle and philosophies of many of the various training camps. I highly recommend this book to anyone who is serious about getting the best out of themselves as a runner. Having read their training programs, it's not the least surprising that Western runners can't match their racing success. If I had to sum up the book in one quote, it would be Paul Koech's statement that " the only secret to my training is the effort I put in. And that effort is tough! "
IP: Logged |
fredurie
Cool Runner |
posted Jan-22-2004 02:23 PM
Canova:"Runners with more Fast Fibers with Oxydative attitudes can
reach a higher level of lactate, as their engine works like a
"turbo", using again a good percentage of the producted
lactate as energy" " Paul Tergat (but also Paula Radcliffe..................cannot
run many marathons in one season, as their engine is able
to develop more power, but the capacity of searching fuel
eating their muscles (so, they are "self-cannibals), if allows
top results, is also damageous for thir body"
IP: Logged |
AndyHass
Cool Runner |
posted Jan-22-2004 02:30 PM
quote:
Originally posted by DanMoriarity:
IHaving read their training programs, it's not the least surprising that Western runners can't match their racing success. If I had to sum up the book in one quote, it would be Paul Koech's statement that " the only secret to my training is the effort I put in. And that effort is tough! "
While I have no doubt they give 110%, to credit their success simply to the fact that they work harder than anyone else seems ridiculous. I don't see how they can honestly feel that they, as a nation, work harder than everyone else on the globe and that is 100% responsible for their success. There are plenty of Western running working their tails off who will never be close enough to the Kenyans to grab their shirttails. There are proven biological differences.
IP: Logged |
8ball
Cool Runner |
posted Jan-22-2004 02:54 PM
Kenyans.....They were shut out of the 10000M in Paris men and ladies. Kiplagat (Kenyan lady) ~30:16 a PR in the race doesn't even make the podium- very passe. IAAF 1/2 Tanzania wins, Kenya 2nd. Start of the x-country season- It looks like Eth. is going to clean their clocks- men and ladies. I use to cheer for any other nation than Kenya, too much dominace. Now, I'll start cheering again- they are the underdogs now.
IP: Logged |
DanMoriarity
Cool Runner |
posted Jan-22-2004 03:56 PM
AndyHass : I disagree with you about Kenyans having genetic advantages. If you take a typical American training schedule, lets say Pfitzinger's ( I only pick this schedule because I have the book and am familiar with it ). He has really only one hard run per week ( a vo2 or tempo run usually ) and everything at a comfortable pace. A typical Kenyan schedule has at least a small amount of race pace running every day. Some of them train 3 times a day. Some of the workouts mentioned for 5-10km were like 20x800m with a minute rest, or 22km uphill tempo run. A lot of the athletes train in camps for long periods where they pretty much just eat sleep and run. I think they do train harder and are more focussed than many others. Of course there are exceptions to every rule, but I think it's a disservice to them to chalk their success up to a genetic advantage rather than giving due credit to their training methods.
IP: Logged |
fredurie
Cool Runner |
posted Jan-22-2004 04:10 PM
There is a mindset of entertaining difficult training workouts.
If you look at Malmo's posted workouts on letsrun you see
volume and intensity, and 10 to 12 mile tempo runs at 4:50
to 5:10.I doubt that an American would entertain a fast progression
run at 10k in 28 minutes, but I may be wrong. I think the world class times nowadays require very fast
training workouts.
IP: Logged |
dtoce
Cool Runner |
posted Jan-22-2004 05:27 PM
I think you're right that it does take ever faster workouts to compete at the highest level. It is that reason, that the athlete needs to come so close to the breakdown point, without going over it, to achieve and surpass the excellence that is now 'standard' world class.
IP: Logged |
fredurie
Cool Runner |
posted Jan-22-2004 05:42 PM
Another way of putting it, is that if world class runners or
the best in the world are running Lactate Threshold at 4:30
a mile, then finding a way to get to sub-max speed at 4:30
a mile is the only real way up.I'm sure Jtupper, Vigil or even Alberto would have a gameplan. [This message has been edited by fredurie (edited Jan-22-2004).]
IP: Logged |
JimUB
Cool Runner |
posted Jan-22-2004 06:47 PM
quote:
Originally posted by DanMoriarity:
AndyHass : I disagree with you about Kenyans having genetic advantages. If you take a typical American training schedule, lets say Pfitzinger's ( I only pick this schedule because I have the book and am familiar with it ). He has really only one hard run per week ( a vo2 or tempo run usually ) and everything at a comfortable pace. A typical Kenyan schedule has at least a small amount of race pace running every day. Some of them train 3 times a day. Some of the workouts mentioned for 5-10km were like 20x800m with a minute rest, or 22km uphill tempo run. A lot of the athletes train in camps for long periods where they pretty much just eat sleep and run. I think they do train harder and are more focussed than many others. Of course there are exceptions to every rule, but I think it's a disservice to them to chalk their success up to a genetic advantage rather than giving due credit to their training methods.
Well, here's a story from my experience.
I'm a HS XC/track coach, and about 15 years ago, an Ethiopian boy moved into our school in 9th grade. He went out for track and was a good, but not great runner right away, and was 7th man on a state championship cross country team his sophomore year. That winter he moved to a neighboring state and went on to win two state championships there. He ran for a Division I university and was an individual qualifier for the NCAA cross country meet. He also had a younger brother who eventually won a state HS cross country championship, and a sister who was a scoring member of a state championship team. Now this family hadn't lived the active lifestyle in the bush we are led to believe is "the secret" behind so many African runners. They lived in Addis Ababa and weren't any more active than most American kids. In fact, none of them had done anything athletically before moving to the US. We're talking about Ethiopians here, not Kenyans, but the question was one of genetic advantage. Three children from the same family who had never participated in athletics all of a sudden are outstanding distance runners once they have the opportunity to pursue the sport in the USA. I find it difficult if not impossible to believe that there is no genetic factor at work here.
IP: Logged |
dtoce
Cool Runner |
posted Jan-22-2004 07:05 PM
Kemibe-
I don't think MOST of us are in doubt of the genetic attributes allowing for advantages over the Americans, in general. The point I was trying to make is that there appears to be less of a push to the point of max gain/breakdown in American runners compared with others who are more willing (and perhaps a bit more able) to do HARD workouts.
IP: Logged |
DanMoriarity
Cool Runner |
posted Jan-22-2004 11:31 PM
Kemibe ;Your poin tis well taken that the schedules in Advanced Marathoning are designed for American mid-packers, not elite athletes. I assumed ( perhaps incorrectly ) that Pete's training when he was an elite marathoner were along the same lines and I recall he provided an example of two weeks of his marathon training in Road Racing for serious runners which were along the same lines as his Advanced Marathoning schedules but with 2 faster workouts a week instead of one and more mileage. Still, this is nothing close to some of the schedules listed in the Kenyan Way. I'm certainly not trying to dis Pete or anyone else, but I think it's too easy to say the Africans are better because of genetics and that's it.
IP: Logged |
CoachB
Cool Runner |
posted Jan-23-2004 07:40 PM
Kemibe:The African countries may have a smaller population to draw from, but what percentage of talented athletes from those countries acutally ends up running as opposed to participating in one of the myriad other sports offered here in the US or in other western countries. I'm sure you won't see any extreme snow boarders on the slopes of Kilamanjaro, just extreme runners. Lets take an average high school (a situation with which I am very familiar). Lets say you have 1000 kids. Lets say that 100 of them have a "talent" for running. Many of those kids will be drawn off into other, more glamorous, sports. Some won't even go out for sports at all. If you have a good distance program and a good coach, maybe you get 15 of those kids out, if you are lucky. If you don't have a good program, you get less out. If you don't have a good coach, the kids don't succeed, or reach their potential or what have you. I can tell you that at a school of 800, I had 4 boys with a real "talent" for running and 2 girls. Furthermore, we are not some sorry little program. We were league and section champions and 10th in the state (CA). However, I see so many kids running around in PE or sitting the bench in another sport (because they are cut out for distance running and not for defensive backing). I am almost sure that I could have had a team just as good as my boys varsity team this year made up of the "talented" kids that did not come out. The point is here, that while Kenya has only 22 million pop. they have only 2 main sports. Many young Kenyans see uncle Juma winning races in Europe for a couple of years and being able to live well for the rest of his life. Because of this, I would wager that a very high percentage of "talented" Kenyans are drawn to running, while their american counterparts are not.
IP: Logged |
AndyHass
Cool Runner |
posted Jan-26-2004 12:04 PM
Ditto what Kemibe said about everything while I was too lax to check back....
As for American schedules, another thing you must remember is that people can only train to the level that their bodies can handle. It would be ludicrous for all but a few of the best AMericans to look at a Kenyan schedule and try to match that. Most runners cannot handle that kind of punishment. I bet though that Alan Culpepper and Meb and such are doing similar intensity.
I would never use a Pfitzinger schedule for anything faster than 2:30-2:40 training. During intense marathon training I run up to 120 mpw, running a long run that usually has some fast work in the end, a long (6-8 mile) tempo session in a 13-14 mile midweek run, a interval session, AND a fartlek-type session. That's about all I can handle, and last fall it ended up being too much for me.
Elite schedules are fun to look at, but if it looks much harder than what you already do you have a LOT of building to do to get anywhere close to that.
IP: Logged |
Miles and Miles
Cool Runner |
posted Jan-26-2004 03:33 PM
Here is the start of a training program I got from Renato. I tried to do it, but being a lazy American I couldn't get it done. This should tell you a little bit about what they do. This was the first week and a half that he gave me (so it was startup level).Wed, 22 : a) 1 hr moderate (6' per mile) b) 50' easy + 15 times 100m sprint climbing Thu, 23 : a) 1 hr 20 min progressive (from 6'30" to 5'20" per mile) b) 50' easy Fri, 24 : 25' warm-up + 5 x 3000m in 9'50" rec. 1000m in 3'50" (19 km in 63'30") Sat, 25 : a) 45' b) 45' Sun, 26 : 2 hr at personal sensation Mon, 27 : a) 45' b) 45' Tue, 28 (special block) : a) 40' moderate + 10 km in 33' b) 40' moderate + 10 x 1000m in 3'12" rec. 1'30" Wed, 29 : a) 1 hr easy b) 1 hr progressive running Thu, 30 : a) 1 hr 15' with short variations of speed (30" / 45" every 2 min ) b) 1 hr easy Fri, 31 : a) 50' easy b) 50' easy Sat 1 : 20' warm-up + 30 km at 3'25" pace (last 5 km at 3'20" if possible) Sun, 2 : 1 hr easy + 20 x 60m sprint climbing It kicked my ass and I couldn't get it done. If you choose to try and do this, don't blame me when you are hurt, ha.
IP: Logged |
Alex Filides
unregistered |
posted Jan-26-2004 09:18 PM
Renato claims that a significant amount of training, can exceed EPO levels in long distance events(i.e marathon) for elite athletes. He also claims that EPO is not available in countries in Africa. He denies any allegations of his athletes doping up. Does anyone think he's covering something up?
IP: Logged |
JereFan26
Cool Runner |
posted Jan-27-2004 02:03 PM
I've only read a little bit of his (Renato's) post but he often claims that Kenyans have below normal Hb and hematocrit levels and also that EPO increases blood viscosity (hematocrit?). I don't understand enough about blood to know what this means; does anyone else know?
IP: Logged |
fredurie
Cool Runner |
posted Jan-27-2004 02:52 PM
Ngong Hills = 5500 to 6500 feet.
Nyahururu (Mt. Kenya) = 8,000 feet.
IP: Logged |
8ball
Cool Runner |
posted Jan-27-2004 03:18 PM
Ditto also on Kemibe's post.It's the same idea as sprinting in the US. The 100-200-400M's are the glamour events in the US. There are more sub 12 and sub 11 second 100M runners walking around in the US than anywhere else and this without having ever trained for track or very little training. I've read recently, that Kenya wants to sharpen up their sprint program to be as dominant as in their distance events. It's all about training (100%). To that I say, good luck to them.
IP: Logged |
CoachB
Cool Runner |
posted Jan-27-2004 03:29 PM
Miles:This 'beginner" program that was sent to you was probably aimed at someone who is a full time runner. I seem to remember a post of yours where you describe training early in the morning and then again after work. Your scenario is probably way different than a Kenyan at one of the high altitude camps.
IP: Logged |
djc1225
Cool Runner |
posted Jan-28-2004 01:45 AM
The point that people are missing is that a certain body type will give someone a better chance of being successful in a certain sport. Americans, because of the culture is not willing to change their body type to what is needed to become a successful distance runner. From the time the "98 lb weakling got sand in his face", the culture of America does not except skinny people. As kids go through adolescents, the peer pressure to fit in will influence the skinny kids to lift weights to become closer to the norm. Couple this with the increasing obesity in children and we are left with very few that even have the right body type to run distances. I ran a few races this year that kenyans were in attendance. At 5'8" and 138, I looked large compared to most. Why can Eddie H. run so well at 42 yrs old? 115 lbs is a big factor. I couldn't find heights and weights for the kenyan runners, but Augustus Kavutu won the Ogden 20k at 5'3 and 105 lbs. When Pat Porter was winning the national Xcountry race every year, he was 6' 128 lbs with 2% body fat. There are always exceptions but a larger runner has to work a lot harder than a lighter runner to produce the same times. Weight definitely is not what makes a great distance runner, but it can mean the difference between national class and world class.
IP: Logged |
DanMoriarity
Cool Runner |
posted Jan-28-2004 11:58 AM
I agree there aren't many North Americans ( relatively speaking ) who have the body type or desire the body type that is most efficient for marathon running. Frank Horwill has lots to say about height and weight for distance running at www.sepentine.co.uk . The Africans certainly have the advantage of not having fast food restaurants on every corner.
IP: Logged |
DanMoriarity
Cool Runner |
posted Jan-28-2004 12:01 PM
Sorry about the link, I had a bit of a memory lapse, it should be www.serpentine.org.uk .
IP: Logged |
djc1225
Cool Runner |
posted Jan-28-2004 08:04 PM
Horwill is a bit of a nut in some instances while in others he is right on.
IP: Logged |
KudzuRunner
Cool Runner |
posted Feb-02-2004 07:23 PM
I'm sure my numbers are slightly off, but didn't I read somewhere--viz. the African-runners-are-more-genetically-talented debate--that 498 of the fastest all-time distance times (marathon? 10K?) are owned by North and East Africans (Ethiopia, Kenya, Morocco), whereas 498 (or so) of the fastest all-time sprint times (100 M to 400M) are owned by people of West African extraction (i.e., West Africans, African Americans [almost all of whom are descended from West African peoples], Caribbean nationals [ditto])? I may have seen this post on this forum, in fact. The gist of the post was that East Africans cannot run the sprints at an elite level, period, and West African peoples can't marathon at an elite level, period. (Ted Corbitt and all other exceptions admitted.) The further gist of this particular post was that, in the face of such overwhelming statistical evidence....well, kemibe's claims about genetic inheritance within certain populations are hard to dispute. I will grant that the nature/nuture argument--which is what drives these sorts of discussions--is a complex one. I will also grant that racist/racial "science," which has loved, in past centuries, to theorize the configurations and performances (hyperadequacies and inadequacies) of black bodies, hovers over this particular discussion in a way that unnerves me. We'd be wise to be conscious of the history of our own discourses, however much we think we're merely discussing The Kenyans and their extraordinary achievements as elite runners. Still and all: that 498 out of 500 figure, which I'm pretty sure I saw here some months back, is a remarkable thing, and deserves to be meditated on. In the World's Strongest Man competition, of course, you get lots of Poles and Russians and Latvians and Swedes...... Must be something going on there. [This message has been edited by KudzuRunner (edited Feb-02-2004).] [This message has been edited by KudzuRunner (edited Feb-02-2004).] [This message has been edited by KudzuRunner (edited Feb-02-2004).]
IP: Logged |
JereFan26
Cool Runner |
posted Feb-03-2004 02:07 PM
Noakes makes that argument (at least in his 4th edition) and also adds that this theory is not popular in the US because of American racial tension and the racial implications some people make. Noakes elsewhere states that the Kalenjin tribe (Kenyans, about 3million) since 1968 have won 26 olympic medals in distance events (800m-marathon I think) while missing 1980 and 1984. In that same span for these same distances: US, 10; UK, 8. Current population of these 2 nations: 290 and 60 million respectively. It would be hard not to accept that these people of only 3 million have some concentration in their gene pool that is specific for whatever genes make you a better endurance runner. Of course, it would be ignorant and/or stupid not to realize also that to win a major race, ie 2004 Boston, and the purse that comes with it, $80,000, means a lot more to a Kenyan than someone from the US or UK. $80K = 70 years of income for an "average" Kenyan where 50% live below poverty level and there is 40% unemployment. No US or UK athlete has any economic incentive to run when you can, like Dwain Chambers will try, make $250K/yr minimum to be on an NFL practice squad or similar minimums for other professional sports. http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/geos/ke.html
IP: Logged |
 |
