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1500 splits


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Professor
Cool Runner
posted May-03-2004 08:24 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Professor     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
i am currently running around 5:04 - 5:09 in the 1500m and want to go sub 5 by the end of the season. i was just wondering what you ppl think the splits should be. my lap times for my best were 77, 82, 84, 61 (for the last 300). if i want to cut 4+ seconds off is there a specific lap/laps i should work on? or should i just try to cut a second off each lap? thanks for any help...

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Richard21142
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posted May-03-2004 05:00 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Richard21142     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
You are not running negative splits. Your first 400 is too fast; although this probably happens in the first 100 to 200 meters.
Based on your second lap, you are probably going through the 200 in 35-37 seconds. Slow that first 100 down just a bit and your second lap will get faster. You also have to work on your last 300 meters. Better splits would be 79 (39/40), 81, 82, 58. That would give you 5:00. With these splits, you would be "on the edge" for the first 3 laps. Finishing in 58 shouldn't be that hard, as you can go anaerobic and it isn't that much faster than the 3rd lap. Good luck

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alexanderthegr8
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posted May-03-2004 07:22 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for alexanderthegr8   Click Here to Email alexanderthegr8     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I disagree. I think that starting with the 77 is perfect to run a 5:00 1500. It's near impossible (in a race) to run perfect splits to hit the time you want If you concern yourself with that the race will leave you behind which makes it more difficult to pick it up and run the time you want.
I think you should try a little harder to hold on for the second lap and run about 79. Do what ever you can to stay with the guy in front of you for lap 3 even running 82-83 is alright. And then start kicking around 300 *Don't wait for 200 when most people kick* Try and follow this race plan and I bet you will run around 4:50.

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Richard21142
Cool Runner
posted May-04-2004 08:32 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Richard21142     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by alexanderthegr8:
I disagree. I think that starting with the 77 is perfect to run a 5:00 1500. It's near impossible (in a race) to run perfect splits to hit the time you want .

Your plan is to have Professor run 77, 79, 83 and 51 for a 4:50. Her current splits are 79, 82,84 and 61 (note that 61 is 81 second 400 meter pace). After a 79 first lap, she is in oxygen debt and is in survival mode as she is slowing down and her kick is not very strong. How is she going to go through the first 400 meters 2 seconds faster, follow that with the second quarter 3 seconds faster and kick in the last 300 meters 10 sesconds faster? If it was that easy to improve everyone would be breaking 4 minutes. Also, if you have the discipline, it is very easy to hit your appropriate splits. But, hitting your appropriate splits requries a realistic evaluation of your ability. If Professor is to run faster without getting fitter or sharper, she has to hit perfect splits and she is not too far from doing that.

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CJ-BLDR
Cool Runner
posted May-04-2004 02:12 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for CJ-BLDR   Click Here to Email CJ-BLDR     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by alexanderthegr8:
I disagree. I think that starting with the 77 is perfect to run a 5:00 1500.

BS! It is the usual HS/inexperienced recipe for disaster. The mile/1500 is 3 even paced 400s followed by a kick with whatever you have left. Everybody and there brother/sister can run too fast on the first lap, die in the middle and mount a feeble "kick" in the last 200m.

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cougarcanyon runner
Cool Runner
posted May-04-2004 05:55 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for cougarcanyon runner     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Professor- Run your first lap a little slower-starting out too fast just spells disaster. Your much more likely to run 5:00
if you go the fist 3 laps even pace and then kick the last 300-400 meters. I found that I had the greatest success going sub 4 for 1500m running even pace for the first 2 laps and picking it up the last 700km. Every race is going to be different- try running your own race and see if you can get that 5:00 1500m . CJ and Richard are right starting out to fast just doesn't work. As you get older and more experienced at racing then you can start a little quicker. I've run many track
1500's and mile races over the years. I also found that if I really wanted to run a good 1500/mile races 800m was a good
distance to race at. Run a good 800 and you can also run a good 1500m. All the best to you. Good luck with your running.
Cheers

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CJ-BLDR
Cool Runner
posted May-04-2004 07:13 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for CJ-BLDR   Click Here to Email CJ-BLDR     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
CCR has great advice and presents it much better than I do.

One other thing ... it is often the case that "going out too fast" is done in the first 200m. By the time you get to the 400m mark, the damage has already been done. Just listen to some old guys who have run fast ... you can "destroy" your competitors by running even splits ... it is especially apparent on the 3rd lap. It is an incredible confidence booster to pass hordes of people on the 3rd lap, but the issue is that you must have the faith in yourself to let them run away from you on the first lap, knowing that they will come back. Everyone typically dies and/or significantly slows down on the 3rd lap. Unless you are in *really* good shape, you really have only one "move" in the 1500m, so don't waste it on the first 200m-400m.

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Professor
Cool Runner
posted May-05-2004 08:39 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Professor     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Thanks everybody! too bad i didnt read this before i raced yesterday...i went out too fast (i think, my coach didnt give me splits) and ended up getting 5:08.
i am only racing one more 15 before the county meet and it is at a dual meet against the worst team in the league (w/no distance runners under 5:30). maybe i can break 5 then even tho i will be running by myself. if all else fails, counties is the perfect opportunity.

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Richard21142
Cool Runner
posted May-05-2004 06:06 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Richard21142     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Professor:
i am only racing one more 15 before the county meet and it is at a dual meet against the worst team in the league (w/no distance runners under 5:30). maybe i can break 5 then even tho i will be running by myself. if all else fails, counties is the perfect opportunity.

Get some of your friends on the team to give you 100 meter and 200 meter splits in your race. If this is the worst team in the league, you will be running by yourself and this will keep you from going out too fast/slow. You might even want to practice hitting your 100 meter/200 meter splits a few days before the race, to get your timing.

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JJMcCall
Member
posted May-06-2004 03:15 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for JJMcCall     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I assume El Guerrouj knows how to properly pace himself in the 1500. Here's what I found doing a quick search:

1500 meters, world record, 3:26.00, Hicham El Guerrouj, MOR
400m = 55.0
800m = 1:50.9
1100m = 2:32.73
1200m = 2:46.34

The lap times would look like this:

lap 1 - 55.0 (55.0)
lap 2 - 55.9 (1:50.9)
lap 3 - 55.44(2:46.34)
final 300 - 39.66(3:26.00)

The final 300 meters was run at 52.88 400 pace, if my math is right...

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Richard21142
Cool Runner
posted May-06-2004 06:13 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Richard21142     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by JJMcCall:
The final 300 meters was run at 52.88 400 pace, if my math is right...

Your math is correct.

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Professor
Cool Runner
posted May-11-2004 09:09 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Professor     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
ugh i had that last dual meet today...any plans of breaking 5 were shot by a d@#& cold...plus my coach put me in the 3000 and 4x8 as well. i ended up getting 5:11 and, once again, the first lap was way too fast (77, 85, 86, 62). county meet is next mon/wed, and probably my last chance...ill keep you guys posted.

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Richard21142
Cool Runner
posted May-11-2004 10:28 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Richard21142     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
In your league meet, you are going to have to concentrate on going out slower. If you know your competition well, you should know who will go out in 77-79 and you should run behind them for the first lap (if somehow you are behind them and your first lap is still 77, it would probably be 2 even 200s which would be better than what you are doing now). If you happen to run the first lap too slowly, you will be able to run the entire second half hard. You are doing this now, but it is much easier when you are not in oxygen debt. Contrary to what your coach once told you, you will have to do a lot of thinking while you are running. Having said all of this, you should run tactical races to place as highly as you can and let the times happen. My daughter's best time in high school came in an indoor race where she let the front runners go, but still had some contact. She ran relaxed while they were sprinting. Two of them "bought the farm" right after the 400 and were out of contention. She ran a tactical race to win, didn't worry about time and the result was that she destroyed the field house record. Good luck in your league meet.

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Professor
Cool Runner
posted May-18-2004 04:52 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Professor     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
me again. county meet is tomorrow and im really psyched. im in the seeded heat for my division so i will have some good competition. i am going for 77, 82, 83, 59. first lap too fast - i know - but that is how ive been running it all season so i dont want to try something different for the county meet and screw something up. i am also doing the 4x8 which i am excited about too. our goal all season has been to go under 10 and two of our girls have just broken 2:30 so hopefully this will be our chance.

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WyoRacer
Member
posted May-18-2004 09:35 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for WyoRacer   Click Here to Email WyoRacer     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I can understand you not wanting to try anything new this late in the season, but I recommend that soon you try even splits, or even negative splits. It makes racing easier--'too easy', during the first half of a race.

Maybe during a summer road race you could try starting slower than what you normally would. Most likely, you'll be glad you did.

Good luck in your meet; I hope you break 5:00.

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WyoRacer
Member
posted May-18-2004 09:37 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for WyoRacer   Click Here to Email WyoRacer     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I can understand you not wanting to try anything new this late in the season, but I recommend that soon you try even splits, or even negative splits. It makes racing easier--'too easy', during the first half of a race.

Maybe during a summer road race you could try starting slower than what you normally would. Most likely, you'll be glad you did.

Good luck in your meet; I hope you break 5:00.

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Professor
Cool Runner
posted May-19-2004 04:14 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Professor     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
ugh meet got rained out and rescheduled for friday...dont you hate when that happens? and its not even raining that hard! id prbly be checking in right now. oh well, at least i got out of 9th period to go to the meet anyway...(yeah we went all the way there before we found out it was cancelled. we're only 20 min. away from the school it was at so it wasnt that bad.)

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Professor
Cool Runner
posted May-24-2004 08:33 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Professor     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote

i had that county meet on friday...needless to say i didnt break 5. i could whine and complain and give excuses for pages upon pages, but i wont. ill just say that any plans of pacing were ruined upon finding out that i was not 6th or 7th in the seeded heat as my coach told me, but 11th out of 12. unless i wanted to run all by my lonesome in the back, i had to start with the pack and hope the first half or so wasnt too fast. i ended up going out around 10th (with the last 2 grls rite behind me) in 74. i knew it was too fast but...yeah. the 800 split was 2:36. then i promptly began to die a slow and painful death. and when i say slow i mean SLOW. while that first half was at around 4:52 1500 pace, i did the last 700 at around 5:30 1500 pace - the last 700 in the same time as the first 800! how are these for "even splits" - 74, 82, 87, 68. kinda funny actually...i am blaming this on dehydration because it was mid80's that day and humid, and i only drank about half a bottle of water right before i ran - none throughout the day. when i finished i was dizzy and weak and had a horrible headache. i walked over to the side of the track like i was drunk and collapsed on the ground. my time ended up being 5:11. im really upset cuz i prbly wont make it to state quals w/my best this season, 5:04. that was my last chance and i blew it cuz im stupid and didnt drink anything.

geez for someone who wasnt going to complain i sure complained a lot...

on a better note my 4x8 team improved its time by 18 seconds, accomplished its goal of breaking 10 and is almost definately going to state quals.

[This message has been edited by Professor (edited May-24-2004).]

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Richard21142
Cool Runner
posted May-24-2004 06:58 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Richard21142     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Professor:
how are these for "even splits" - 74, 82, 87, 68. kinda funny actuallyThis message has been edited by Professor (edited May-24-2004).]

While the first sign of dehydration is a headache, I would put the blame on your first split. Your race sounds like my daughter's first league meet when she was a sophomore in high school. In the 1500, she refused, for the first 300 meters, to give up the lead to someone who had run a 4:47 mile indoors. Her third lap was predestrian and really hurt her final time. It wasn't until her senior year that she started running smart races.

You have to realize that the race doesn't begin at the starting line, but begins somewhere in the second half of the race. Anyone can be with the leaders at the first split. The idea is to be able to move with the leader in the second half of the race and kick at some point in the last lap. You can't do this if you have incurred a high oxygen debt. If you are not a contender for the win, then you run a race designed to yield your best placing. In college, my daughter had run the 5000 in her league meet. It was about 90 degrees and windy (track was on the bay). She was asked to run the 3000 and grab 6th place otherwise the meet was going to be decided in the relay. She asked me what she should do and I told her to go out in last place and simply not slow down. She went out in last place and was with the leaders at the mile. She wound up 2nd simply because she was too tired to "kick". Had she gone out with the leaders in the first lap, she would had been lucky to have placed 6th. Part of being a successful runner is to understand how each run is run at each level of competition and executing a race plan that fits you. If this was your last race of the season, you should look for some summer meets and experiment with pacing.

Hydration: It takes about 30 minutes for water to empty from your stomach. So, drink at least 30 minutes before your race.
Also, if it is possible, stay in the shade until race time.

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Professor
Cool Runner
posted May-28-2004 08:21 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Professor     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Richard21142:

You have to realize that the race doesn't begin at the starting line, but begins somewhere in the second half of the race. Anyone can be with the leaders at the first split. The idea is to be able to move with the leader in the second half of the race and kick at some point in the last lap. You can't do this if you have incurred a high oxygen debt. If you are not a contender for the win, then you run a race designed to yield your best placing.



thing is i wasnt trying to go out w/the leaders...that 74 was going out in the back. the leaders had like 71for their 1st 400. would it have been better for me to have taken it at my own pace and been 3 sec. behind the entire race after the 1st lap? i know that would have been better pacing-wise, but it didnt seem like the right thing to do...

it also didnt help that my coach told me beforehand to go out in 72...i knew that that wasnt a good idea but i didnt want to say to her "sorry ive been getting advice from people online and frankly their advice makes tons more sense than yours..." even though that's what i was thinking.

im trying to put it behind me now though cuz i have my 4x8 tomorrow in state quals, we have a chance of getting a good time and placing fairly well...im trying to think about that now.

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Richard21142
Cool Runner
posted May-28-2004 11:03 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Richard21142     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Professor:
would it have been better for me to have taken it at my own pace and been 3 sec. behind the entire race after the 1st lap? i know that would have been better pacing-wise, but it didnt seem like the right thing to do....

There are times when you have to let the pack go in the first lap. Running yourself into oxygen debt and hoping for a miracle doesn't work. What is interesting, is that as you get fitter and more mature, your 1500 time will get faster; but most of the improvement comes in the second half. Had you run the first quarter appropriately, you would have noticed a lot of the runners in front of you slowing down, unless they all ran 4:35 (which would be appropriate for a 72 first lap).
You would have felt pretty awesome as you passed runners in the last 800 and would have placed higher and run a faster time. It takes a lot more confidence, however, to let everyone go in the first lap and run your own race.

At an indoor meet once, I was describing to 5 girls the best way to run the 300 conceptually. All of a sudden one girl said, "I get it, you have to think". All 5 girls set PRs in their race; even though they had run at Yale the week before on a much faster track.

Good luck in your relay.

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dan505
Cool Runner
posted Jun-23-2004 10:06 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for dan505   Click Here to Email dan505     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
My coach always tells me that the third lap is the most important lap in the 1500. Make sure to maintain your speed from the 2nd lap to the 3rd and then leave whatever you have left on the track during the 4th lap. If you fall just short of your goal then another week of training and some good competition can help you acheive your goal.

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alexanderthegr8
Cool Runner
posted Jun-24-2004 07:24 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for alexanderthegr8   Click Here to Email alexanderthegr8     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
A 3 second gap between you and the pack would be huge and quite demoralizing after only 400m when that happens in a race try to sit in the back and let them pull you along to a fast time rather than racing 3 seconds back on your own where you have to do all of the work yourself.

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skiinglowe
Member
posted Jun-29-2004 08:55 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for skiinglowe     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I think you have to go out fast in race. You have to stay ion the race the first lap. If you dont its over. When I wanted to break 4 50 in the 1600 i went out at 68 67. In all the races before I would slow down on the third lap especially the last 600m. When i finally broke 4 50 I went out 66 67 and focused on the third lap and I ran a 4 41. I think if you reall focus and really dig on your hardest laps you will break it easily. Dont build it to much up in your head either. That will work against you.
Good luck

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dan505
Cool Runner
posted Jun-29-2004 09:46 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for dan505   Click Here to Email dan505     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I did the exact same thing as skiinglowe, I went our at 66 on the first lap and finished with a 4:41. I was a little worried at first that I was going to burn out like I had at practice 4 days earlier when i went out that fast in a 1200 time trial, but all went well as I won the race and beat my PR by 6 seconds.

Personally I like to break the race into 2 thinking stages:

my first 800: under 2:20
after 1200: under 3:30

And then after that just leave whatever I have left on the track.

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