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800 & 1500 meter training

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Author Topic:   800 & 1500 meter training
wantnationals
Member
posted Feb-20-2002 06:34 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for wantnationals   Click Here to Email wantnationals     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Hello. I am a 12 year old that wants to win in both the AAU and USA Nationals in the 800 and 1500 meter runs. I have done some research and see that to have a chance at winning both I need to have time of 2:15 in the 800 and 4:40 in the 1500. I have listed below my goal times, times that I have now and a sample of my workouts.

Goal Times: I would like to make these by June of this year if possible.
800 Meters... 2:15
1500 Meters.. 4:40

My best times to date are 2:43 in the 800 and 5:35 in the 1500. Both were in July of last year. I trained 10 weeks for those times and was 11 when I ran them. After summer track I ran with the high school cross country team for their season. I now can run 3 miles in the high 20 minute range.

Since January of this year I have been following the training program listed below.

Monday: 4 X 1,000 meter repeats with 5 minute rest periods
Tuesday: Easy 3 mile run
Wednesday: 8 X 400 meters with 2 minute rest periods (I did my best today running the first 7 in 1.21 and my last was 1.25...I had gassed out)
Thursday: easy 4 mile run
Friday: 3 mile tempo run
Saturday: 5 mile medium/easy run
Sunday: NOTHING

I was thinking of adding a speed day once every 8th day such as 200 meters at 95% of my max...full recovery and then repeat....maybe 4-8 of them????

Please help me with my training program. Maybe complete training program from all of you coaches and athlets out there? After the summer program is over I am taking 5 months off. ( my dad is making me...he says that he does not want me burning myself out)

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swedechick
Cool Runner
posted Feb-20-2002 11:39 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for swedechick   Click Here to Email swedechick     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
for those distances i do alot of 400s and 300s and 200s so try those. also what are ur current prs?

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arthurthiry
Member
posted Feb-21-2002 08:02 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for arthurthiry   Click Here to Email arthurthiry     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
make sure to get some really easy jogs in...at least a half an hour...even though you are young you need to start building base of endurance running...throw in some easy jogs to do "twice a day" a couple of days a week (I mean fun runs, just enjoy the running) ...the speed work should take care of itself. Especially when you start running races...long jogs whenever you can.

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Wile E
Cool Runner
posted Feb-21-2002 08:30 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Wile E   Click Here to Email Wile E     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by wantnationals:
Hello. I am a 12 year old that wants to win in both the AAU and USA Nationals in the 800 and 1500 meter runs. I have done some research and see that to have a chance at winning both I need to have time of 2:15 in the 800 and 4:40 in the 1500. I have listed below my goal times, times that I have now and a sample of my workouts.

Goal Times: I would like to make these by June of this year if possible.
800 Meters... 2:15
1500 Meters.. 4:40

My best times to date are 2:43 in the 800 and 5:35 in the 1500. Both were in July of last year. I trained 10 weeks for those times and was 11 when I ran them. After summer track I ran with the high school cross country team for their season. I now can run 3 miles in the high 20 minute range.

Since January of this year I have been following the training program listed below.

Monday: 4 X 1,000 meter repeats with 5 minute rest periods
Tuesday: Easy 3 mile run
Wednesday: 8 X 400 meters with 2 minute rest periods (I did my best today running the first 7 in 1.21 and my last was 1.25...I had gassed out)
Thursday: easy 4 mile run
Friday: 3 mile tempo run
Saturday: 5 mile medium/easy run
Sunday: NOTHING

I was thinking of adding a speed day once every 8th day such as 200 meters at 95% of my max...full recovery and then repeat....maybe 4-8 of them????

Please help me with my training program. Maybe complete training program from all of you coaches and athlets out there? After the summer program is over I am taking 5 months off. ( my dad is making me...he says that he does not want me burning myself out)


First, I must say, you write very clearly and succinctly for a 12 year old.

If the nationals are in July, then you have time to build yet. I wouldn't fret about specific speed workouts yet, but would be focusing on building a good base, doing hills, tempos and lotsa strides. Your schedule looks OK; maybe add a bit more mileage and again strides after easy runs and hill sessions. Also, do some upper body stuff like push ups, pull ups, dips, as well as ab work like crunches. Good Luck!

[This message has been edited by Wile E (edited 02-21-2002).]

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wantnationals
Member
posted Feb-21-2002 11:16 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for wantnationals   Click Here to Email wantnationals     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Thank you Wile E for the compliment on my writing skills. I was in the top 1% last year of Texas in writing in my age group. My parents demand straight A's or I can't join sports.

I have no hills in my area at all so I can't do those. Exactly what do you mean by strides?

The times I listed might sound crazy but when I checked out the national winners of the past that is what I am going to HAVE to make to "guarantee" myself the wins.

Could you please post an exact weekly or bi-monthly workout that you could recommend to get me to those times?

Thanks.
Matthew Bain
Rockport, TX

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wantnationals
Member
posted Feb-21-2002 11:17 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for wantnationals   Click Here to Email wantnationals     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by swedechick:
for those distances i do alot of 400s and 300s and 200s so try those. also what are ur current prs?

My best times to date are 2:43 in the 800 and 5:35 in the 1500. Both were in July of last year

What are your rest periods with the workouts that you do?

Could you please post your exact workout?

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isaiah4031
Cool Runner
posted Feb-21-2002 11:34 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for isaiah4031   Click Here to Email isaiah4031     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Matthew,

Congratulations on your motivation and self-discipline! You already possess some of the main strengths necessary to succeed.

Your estimation of the times required to win those competitions is fairly accurate. Somewhere around 2:12 - 2:15 will put you in good shape to compete for first in the 800m and 4:35 - 4:40 for the 1500m would be hard to beat. That assumes you will compete in the 11-12 age group (you can't turn 13 before the end of 2002).

I coach a runner that has finished in the top 3 in the 800m and 1500m at 3 different USATF National Jr. Olympics. He posts on this forum regularly. He is 14 so I'll see if he can respond with some specific workouts he has used over the past 2 or 3 years.

Good luck!

------------------
But they that wait upon the LORD shall renew their strength; they shall mount up with wings as eagles; they shall run, and not be weary; and they shall walk, and not faint.

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prefontaine
Cool Runner
posted Feb-21-2002 01:17 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for prefontaine   Click Here to Email prefontaine     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Matthew, I'm the runner that Isaiah mentioned...I've been to three different USATF Nationals, and I've placed in the top three in one event each time.

When I was twelve, I placed second in the 1500, and sixth in the 800, running 4:37 and 2:22 respectively.

You're training looks very good...for a 1500-3000 runner. Being a middle distance runner, it seems to me that you should shift the focus a bit more towards speed, especially as the summer season approaches.

Going from your current PR's to being a national champion in two events is a very ambitious and admirable goal, but I think that you should set some intermediate goals to help you along the way. Perhaps set the goal of making the finals at Nationals this year.

For this time of the year, you would do well to follow your current training, but I would begin doing one or two speed workouts every week or ten days.

Here is a couple of sample weeks of what I would have done during the summer season when I was your age:

Mon-1 mile warm up, 12x200 in 33 (goal 800 pace).
Do this workout in sets of 4, walking/jogging back across the field to the starting line for rest between 200's, and 3-5 minutes between sets.


Tue-Soccer practice.


Wed-1 mile warm up, 3x1 mile in 6:00..."comfortably hard". You should be pushing by the last interval. Take 5 minutes rest between. This workout is best done at a park, or somewhere where you can run on grass or dirt.

Thu-Soccer practice.


Fri-If you have a track meet Saturday, rest or do an easy run. If you're not racing on Saturday: 12x200m hill at goal mile race pace. Do this in sets of 4, or 6 if you can. Jog down the hill for recovery between intervals.(Slowly! The downhill running puts extra stress on your legs, so it's best to "shuffle" down the hill) Take 4-5 minutes between sets.

Sat-Track meet, or distance run (usually 4-5 miles for me)

Sun-Complete rest.

Mon- 1 mile warm up, 16x100m in 15-15.5 w/walk back recovery. 1/2 mile cool down.

Tue-Soccer practice

Wed-1 mile warm up, 6x300 in 46-47 w/full(7-9 minutes) recovery. 1/2 mile cooldown.

Thu-Soccer practice.

Fri-Rest.

Sat-Track meet. (1 mile warm up, racing any combination, or all of the 400, 800, 1500)

Sun-Off or 4-5 miles steady.

Isaiah might want to make a few corrections to those workouts, as my memory's a bit foggy...


I know that you're probably shaking your head at the idea of taking two days a week completely off from running to play soccer. But, let me assure you, that playing soccer, basketball, or any other such sport has many benefits:

1.Provides a mental and physical break from the repetitive pounding of running...basically protection from "burnout".

2.Develops aerobic ability, as well as speed, coordination, and overall fitness and strength, which prevents running-related injuries.

3.Provides a team atmosphere to balance the solitude of running and racing.

I've done very well in past years off of no base but 10-20 miles a week and soccer two or three times a week throughout the winter.

With the exception of the fast intervals, try and do as much of your running as possible on grass or dirt.

If you can find someone who is of your ability, or slightly faster, to train with, it will help tremendously.

I would also encourage you to keep a detailed log of the work you do...not only can it be used an effective training tool, itís a lot of fun to look back and see what kind of workouts you were doing several years ago. I have a log of every workout I've done (save for a few weeks where I didn't record the info for one reason or another) since May of 2000.

Good luck.

Daniel LaCava


------------------
Gonads and Strife...Weeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee!
"The strong, the quick, the mentally sick. Runners. The fast, the sleek, the thin as a stick. Runners.
The speedy, the odd, the Saucony shod. Runners.
The runners, their peers, they're all snotrockateers. Runners. Runners."

Don't think...just be...be fast!

[This message has been edited by prefontaine (edited 02-21-2002).]

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wantnationals
Member
posted Feb-21-2002 01:54 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for wantnationals   Click Here to Email wantnationals     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by isaiah4031:
Matthew,

Congratulations on your motivation and self-discipline! You already possess some of the main strengths necessary to succeed.

Your estimation of the times required to win those competitions is fairly accurate. Somewhere around 2:12 - 2:15 will put you in good shape to compete for first in the 800m and 4:35 - 4:40 for the 1500m would be hard to beat. That assumes you will compete in the 11-12 age group (you can't turn 13 before the end of 2002).

I coach a runner that has finished in the top 3 in the 800m and 1500m at 3 different USATF National Jr. Olympics. He posts on this forum regularly. He is 14 so I'll see if he can respond with some specific workouts he has used over the past 2 or 3 years.

Good luck!



Thank you. Can you give me some specific workouts that you would recommend also?

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wantnationals
Member
posted Feb-21-2002 01:57 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for wantnationals   Click Here to Email wantnationals     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by prefontaine:
Matthew, I'm the runner that Isaiah mentioned...I've been to three different USATF Nationals, and I've placed in the top three in one event each time.

When I was twelve, I placed second in the 1500, and sixth in the 800, running 4:37 and 2:22 respectively.

You're training looks very good...for a 1500-3000 runner. Being a middle distance runner, it seems to me that you should shift the focus a bit more towards speed, especially as the summer season approaches.

Going from your current PR's to being a national champion in two events is a very ambitious and admirable goal, but I think that you should set some intermediate goals to help you along the way. Perhaps set the goal of making the finals at Nationals this year.

For this time of the year, you would do well to follow your current training, but I would begin doing one or two speed workouts every week or ten days.

Here is a couple of sample weeks of what I would have done during the summer season when I was your age:

Mon-1 mile warm up, 12x200 in 33 (goal 800 pace).
Do this workout in sets of 4, walking/jogging back across the field to the starting line for rest between 200's, and 3-5 minutes between sets.


Tue-Soccer practice.


Wed-1 mile warm up, 3x1 mile in 6:00..."comfortably hard". You should be pushing by the last interval. Take 5 minutes rest between. This workout is best done at a park, or somewhere where you can run on grass or dirt.

Thu-Soccer practice.


Fri-If you have a track meet Saturday, rest or do an easy run. If you're not racing on Saturday: 12x200m hill at goal mile race pace. Do this in sets of 4, or 6 if you can. Jog down the hill for recovery between intervals.(Slowly! The downhill running puts extra stress on your legs, so it's best to "shuffle" down the hill) Take 4-5 minutes between sets.

Sat-Track meet, or distance run (usually 4-5 miles for me)

Sun-Complete rest.

Mon- 1 mile warm up, 16x100m in 15-15.5 w/walk back recovery. 1/2 mile cool down.

Tue-Soccer practice

Wed-1 mile warm up, 6x300 in 46-47 w/full(7-9 minutes) recovery. 1/2 mile cooldown.

Thu-Soccer practice.

Fri-Rest.

Sat-Track meet. (1 mile warm up, racing any combination, or all of the 400, 800, 1500)

Sun-Off or 4-5 miles steady.

Isaiah might want to make a few corrections to those workouts, as my memory's a bit foggy...


I know that you're probably shaking your head at the idea of taking two days a week completely off from running to play soccer. But, let me assure you, that playing soccer, basketball, or any other such sport has many benefits:

1.Provides a mental and physical break from the repetitive pounding of running...basically protection from "burnout".

2.Develops aerobic ability, as well as speed, coordination, and overall fitness and strength, which prevents running-related injuries.

3.Provides a team atmosphere to balance the solitude of running and racing.

I've done very well in past years off of no base but 10-20 miles a week and soccer two or three times a week throughout the winter.

With the exception of the fast intervals, try and do as much of your running as possible on grass or dirt.

If you can find someone who is of your ability, or slightly faster, to train with, it will help tremendously.

I would also encourage you to keep a detailed log of the work you do...not only can it be used an effective training tool, itís a lot of fun to look back and see what kind of workouts you were doing several years ago. I have a log of every workout I've done (save for a few weeks where I didn't record the info for one reason or another) since May of 2000.

Good luck.

Daniel LaCava


How much rest period is between the 200's?

Would a slow 3 mile run on the grass or a pool workout with the aquajogger be good on the "soccer days"?

My last 400 meter days I did 8 X 400 with 2 minute rest periods. My first seven were in 1.21 and my last in 1.25. Based on those numbers do you think my 1500 meter time is down to about 5.10 or 5.20?


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prefontaine
Cool Runner
posted Feb-21-2002 02:11 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for prefontaine   Click Here to Email prefontaine     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by wantnationals:
How much rest period is between the 200's?

Would a slow 3 mile run on the grass or a pool workout with the aquajogger be good on the "soccer days"?

My last 400 meter days I did 8 X 400 with 2 minute rest periods. My first seven were in 1.21 and my last in 1.25. Based on those numbers do you think my 1500 meter time is down to about 5.10 or 5.20?



The rest between the 200's is however long it takes you to get across the football field and back to the starting line...I would guess that that would take 30-60 seconds.

Yes, if you're not playing any type of sports on those days, then an easy run on grass or some other type of cross-training will work well.

You averaged 5:26 1600m pace for the 400's you did...based on that I'd say that you're in 5:40-5:45 1600 shape, which is the equivelant of about a 5:23-5:24 for a 1500. This is just my opinion, and others might be able to offer a more accurate one.

DJL

------------------
Gonads and Strife...Weeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee!
"The strong, the quick, the mentally sick. Runners. The fast, the sleek, the thin as a stick. Runners.
The speedy, the odd, the Saucony shod. Runners.
The runners, their peers, they're all snotrockateers. Runners. Runners."

Don't think...just be...be fast!

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CoachB
Moderator of The Track
posted Feb-22-2002 09:40 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for CoachB   Click Here to Email CoachB     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Wile E:
First, I must say, you write very clearly and succinctly for a 12 year old.

[This message has been edited by Wile E (edited 02-21-2002).]



Wile E. The first thing that I thought when I read this post was that it was from an overzealous parent trying to get some insight into coaching his/her kid. (Wantnationals, if this is not the case, I appologize.) In my college prep Anatomy classes, I have few students who write so well. And from my track team, I have only a handfull of athletes willing to go out and research training and try to implement it on their own (although I encourage it).

Wantnationals: You have been given good advice here. You can take pre's stuff to the bank. Especially the stuff about including other sports like soccer. 12 is way to young to focus only on distance running, even if it really is something you want to devote yourself to.

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Wile E
Cool Runner
posted Feb-22-2002 10:25 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Wile E   Click Here to Email Wile E     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by CoachB:

Wile E. The first thing that I thought when I read this post was that it was from an overzealous parent trying to get some insight into coaching his/her kid.

yup ...but look how well pre writes.

wantnational...follow pre and coachB's advice here. You are still very young and should do everything else normal 12 year olds enjoy. Good Luck to you!

Oh...pre..those 46-47 sec. 300m are pretty dang quick for a 2:20 2 lapper? They are faster than your 200's. Maybe 50-51?

[This message has been edited by Wile E (edited 02-22-2002).]

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prefontaine
Cool Runner
posted Feb-22-2002 11:04 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for prefontaine   Click Here to Email prefontaine     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Wile E, that particular 300 workout is used for speed and strength, not really pace work. They're done allout every step of the way, hence the full recovery. They're for developing "intestinal fortitude" as much as anything else. I did the same workout last summer with the 300's in 42.

The 800's in 33 were at goal 800 pace, not pr pace. I was hoping to run under 2:15 that summer, and Isaiah and I felt like I was capable of doing so...I just never had that "perfect" race, like I was able to have in the 1500.

The 2:22 that I ran in the finals at nationals wasn't my PR...I ran 2:18 in the prelims, before having an awful race to finish sixth in the finals.

DJL

------------------
Gonads and Strife...Weeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee!
"The strong, the quick, the mentally sick. Runners. The fast, the sleek, the thin as a stick. Runners.
The speedy, the odd, the Saucony shod. Runners.
The runners, their peers, they're all snotrockateers. Runners. Runners."

Don't think...just be...be fast!

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Wile E
Cool Runner
posted Feb-22-2002 11:25 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Wile E   Click Here to Email Wile E     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by prefontaine:
Wile E, that particular 300 workout is used for speed and strength, not really pace work. They're done allout every step of the way, hence the full recovery. They're for developing "intestinal fortitude" as much as anything else. I did the same workout last summer with the 300's in 42.


Gotcha! Let me ask though, would you consider that one of your toughest workouts?
I went 2:03 last year and would have found that workout to be really testing my fortitude as well. Maybe that's my problem

Regardless, IMO, if you are doing that, its only a matter of time till you pop a big one.

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prefontaine
Cool Runner
posted Feb-22-2002 11:49 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for prefontaine   Click Here to Email prefontaine     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Yeah, that's one of the toughest workouts I do...To borrow a quote from Frank Shorter (I think) If someone put a gun to my head after the last one, and said 'run another', I'd say "Shoot me!".

We felt that I was in 2:03 shape at least last summer...I did the "Kosmin Test" (2x60 seconds all out w/ three minute rest...then use some formula based on how many meters you ran to calculate what you can run an 800 in) and I ran 410m and 401m in the sixty second intervals, which comes out to a 2:01 800. Of course, that's only a test, but we felt that it was pretty accurate in this case.

I think that my main problem was that I didn't run it aggresively enough...perhaps a result of racing only 800/1500, and never the 400 as I've done in the past.

So hopefully I'll be able to break through and run closer to my potential this summer...we'll see.

DJL

------------------
Gonads and Strife...Weeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee!
"The strong, the quick, the mentally sick. Runners. The fast, the sleek, the thin as a stick. Runners.
The speedy, the odd, the Saucony shod. Runners.
The runners, their peers, they're all snotrockateers. Runners. Runners."

Don't think...just be...be fast!

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Wile E
Cool Runner
posted Feb-22-2002 04:07 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Wile E   Click Here to Email Wile E     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
You're there pre. It will come to you. You just have to get in the right race. Once it happens, it will click. You're young and talented and have many years to develop, so don't even get frustrated.

I never did a Kosmin test, though had a pretty good idea what I should have run in college from this workout: 600m all out...rest 20 sec...then 200m all out. I died...and unfortunately, never really hit my potential; likely why I'm still hangin around at my age

Sorry for the hijack national..you are talented as well and I wish you the best of luck. Stay in touch and let us know how you are doing.

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swedechick
Cool Runner
posted Feb-23-2002 10:40 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for swedechick   Click Here to Email swedechick     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
phew! 2:15 for a 12 or 13 year old kid? that is quick! i'm not saying it can't be done. there was a girl over in my neck of the woods who did that in 8th grade but no one that young should be having to particularly focus on something like that. i think kids have all the time in the world to be running fast times like those - like senior year in high school.

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wantnationals
Member
posted Feb-23-2002 11:41 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for wantnationals   Click Here to Email wantnationals     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by swedechick:
phew! 2:15 for a 12 or 13 year old kid? that is quick! i'm not saying it can't be done. there was a girl over in my neck of the woods who did that in 8th grade but no one that young should be having to particularly focus on something like that. i think kids have all the time in the world to be running fast times like those - like senior year in high school.

Those times are for the boys...not the girls. The National AAU record for the 12 year old boys is 2:07. I do not care about that. I just want to freeking win.

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swedechick
Cool Runner
posted Feb-23-2002 12:48 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for swedechick   Click Here to Email swedechick     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
oh, i get it they have a special nationals for younger kids too. i didn't know that. i learned something new today.

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aweeztx
Cool Runner
posted Jul-20-2002 08:50 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for aweeztx     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
jeez thats fast-dont forget about an endurace base

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denton
Member
posted Jul-23-2002 06:59 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for denton     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
..just remember..it ain't what you do now...it's what you do in 10 yrs that matters......

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fred urie
Cool Runner
posted Jul-24-2002 05:56 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for fred urie   Click Here to Email fred urie     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Everthing is a base for what comes next. If you are between
10 and 20 it is difficult to have patience. If you look at your
time and say "that sucked" there are many variables that
may have made it suck.
Have faith in your own ability, and wait for the opportunity
down the road.
Today's racing pace will be tomorrow's training pace.

[This message has been edited by fred urie (edited Jul-24-2002).]

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skylander
Cool Runner
posted Jul-28-2002 11:47 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for skylander     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I am a resident of South Texas myself, it is true that you have zero hills to train on. You are very close to the beach, so maybe you can do some training runs in the sand. I would like to hear from the exercise physiologists about the benefits and shortfalls of it. Will it considerably reduce lower leg stress? Considerably increase speed? Alter form?

Brian, I would work on getting some more mileage in on your easy days. Maybe instead of "taking off" for that 5months you could do more jogging along with playing other sports. It looks like you realize that "burning out" is 99.9999% mental. You aren't going to "peak" anytime soon if you stay excited and keep grinding it out. You are going to be growing considerably in the next few years, getting a head start on "filling out" is very important. Pushups, situps, dips, and basic weightroom exercises are great things to work on in your off-season.

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