posted Jun-30-2007 05:09 PM               

1 M: 6:16 -> 5:36
2 M: 13:36 -> 12:46
5k: 21:20 -> 20:08
10k: 48:46 -> 42:48
10M: 77:45 -> 69:12
marathon: 4:03 -> 3:11
50M: 10:34 -> 7:53
100M: 18:53 (no time before low HR training to compare to!)

Also, over the past year, I've run 6 sub-3:20 marathons, whereas
in the previous year, I struggled to break 4 hours.

If you're intrigued by this discussion, I'd suggest you read
the FAQ in my signature, along with some of the key links at
the top that I list. One of the more recent
factors that seems to be important in the progress of this
approach is the need to incorporate enough downhill running at
fast pace (keeping heart rate up to the max MAF value - see
FAQ for what that means) for a reasonable percentage of volume.
In other words, make sure there's a little bit of a mix of faster
paced runs in your training, which you can do while staying
within the heart rate bounds by running on some extended downhills.
Simply put, find a hilly course for at least some of your runs. It
doesn't matter how slow you go up the hills (as long as you keep
the HR in check), but make sure you go fast enough on the downs
to keep your HR from getting too low. There's a 90% chance that
if you have a question, it's addressed in the FAQ.

Now, a few things that I should mention that are touched on in the
FAQ, but I'll reiterate here.

1. This is a not a promotion of slow-running. At least not in the
long term. For many that really need this, it will involve slowing
down, possibly a lot at first, in order to get faster for longer distances.

2. There is nothing here that implies that running everything slow
will make you faster and faster, but rather that if you put in the good
time at a low enough heart rate range, you should be able to
extend the speed you currently have to longer distances.

3. We do tend to get in some discussions about physiology because
sometimes it's important to understand certain aspects. However,
I am not a physiologist and I much prefer to keep this thread about
real people, real occurrences, and not about theory and quotations
of famous (or not so famous) coaches and trainers. If you want
quotations from coaches and trainers, then do some research, check
out some books and read up! For the most part, the "example"
athletes discussed by most coaches and trainers are not everyday
runners like you and me.

4. My experience has been with this that the lower heart rate you
use, the better results, but the more painful it will be at first. Many
people will argue against that and try to provide you an excuse to
use a higher target heart rate. I can only say this - if anyone had
that excuse, it was me, and the higher heart rate target was not
successful for me. My max heart rate is at least 210 and my typical
training heart rate is about 139.

5. Nowhere will I tell you that you should always run everything
slow, but many people read a few lines here and there and make
that interpretation. Here are a few facts about this:
a. You probably need to slow down a lot at first if you're going
to use this approach.
b. You shouldn't expect to see much in the way of positive
results over the short term. The results appear over weeks
and months. If you want a quick fix, this is not the approach
for you.
c. After several weeks, things should start to improve. If they
are still getting worse after 4 weeks or so, it's time to step back
and see what's going on.
d. When you are achieving success with this approach, you may
continue to improve greatly, and possibly for a long time, as I
have. My feeling is that while you are still improving, why mess
with it? Transition to more intense training once you have gotten
all of the aerobic toothpaste out of the tube.

6. If your goal is to run the fastest marathon (or other aerobic race)
that you can possibly run, then eventually, you'll have to add more
aggressive training. This approach represents both a phase to
prepare for the next level of training as well as guidance for how to
keep your easy runs truly easy when you are training more aggressively.

7. I mentioned in another recent post in the last version of this thread
that there is a major paradox with aerobic development. Those
who have very poor aerobic conditioning will have a terribly slow
pace at a "deeply aerobic" low heart rate. These people will have to
spend a lot of time at low heart rates to develop their aerobic systems
and it will be painfully slow for a while. Even a very small volume of
higher heart rate activities will tend to interfere with the process. I
was in this category and I experienced this as have many others.
Those who have strong aerobic conditioning can already run a good
pace at a low heart rate. These people can add a significant volume
of higher intensity stuff and can still see further aerobic development.
I am in this category now. It's the ultimate insult to injury.

8. If you are in your low 20s or below or mid-50s or above, it may
take some real trial and error to find a good "maximum aerobic
function" heart rate. Also, if you have a very low max heart rate,
the same can be said. If you are in either of these situations, I
recommend that you read the Hadd article in the FAQ and follow
his guidance for selecting a basebuilding heart rate.

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[This message has been edited by leitnerj (edited Jul-01-2007).]

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posted Jun-30-2007 05:36 PM            

Last monday, I did 4.1 miles at 10:01 min/mi and 135 bpm average when the temp was 70 and the dew point 69. I went out to the desert in California and on wednesday did 4.5 miles at 9:21 min/mi and 135 bpm average with an avg temp of 67 and dew point of 28(!).

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posted Jun-30-2007 06:10 PM               

quote:

---

Originally posted by gregw:
I can't resist the urge to post in this fresh thread. Here's something semi-relevant to HR training: humidity sucks.

Last monday, I did 4.1 miles at 10:01 min/mi and 135 bpm average when the temp was 70 and the dew point 69. I went out to the desert in California and on wednesday did 4.5 miles at 9:21 min/mi and 135 bpm average with an avg temp of 67 and dew point of 28(!).

---

Indeed, I think dewpoint seems to be a more relevant quantity
than temperature itself, and I'm not sure how much you can
really acclimate to it. Anything over about 65 for dewpoint and
you can start to feel the negative effects.

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posted Jun-30-2007 06:57 PM               

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posted Jun-30-2007 07:10 PM               

quote:

---

Originally posted by monk03:
A question for the LHR guys. I've noticed looking at some ot your logs that you record an "Average HR" for your runs. That being true..do you average your heart rates during a run? For example my 70%HRR is 150. During a run my HR might hit 155 or 160 towards the end of a run. But it will average 150 for the run. Is this the correct way of doing things? Not MAF per say more like Hadd I guess.

---

If you really want to see the best effects, I have found that you
should stay strictly below the MAF value for the entire run. Same
goes even if you use a Hadd approach. Some people easily get away
with letting things float around, some don't.

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posted Jun-30-2007 07:37 PM            

MAF training source:

Training for Endurance by Phil Maffetone

High Performance Heart by Phil Maffetone

Mark Allen On MAF

SLow Burn by Stu Mittleman

--Jimmy

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posted Jun-30-2007 07:41 PM               

quote:

---

Originally posted by jjwaverly42:
For newbies and people first coming in and wondering what the heck is going on with all this fat-burning fiber poo...important pages and books on which this thread is based:

MAF training source:

Training for Endurance by Phil Maffetone

High Performance Heart by Phil Maffetone

Mark Allen On MAF

SLow Burn by Stu Mittleman

--Jimmy

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---

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posted Jun-30-2007 08:26 PM            

I have had lifelong asthma that I got rid of using the Buteyko method and so I always nose breathe when I run.

I also have flat feet and have had some abrasion issues on my second metatarsal. I have been working on form and in that regard, I increased my cadence to 90/side (180 steps per minute) or even faster.

I used to be a very slow runner. I ran some 5K and 10K races last year but was very slow.

But since I upped my cadence, I now run at 9 or 10 minute miles (very fast for me). But I found that my pulse would go to 175 or 180 and I wasn't able to run for prolonged periods without walking. There still remains the probability that I will make some further form changes that will let me run for much longer periods, but since I wasn't making progress I decided to try Maffetone.

I am 46yo so I figured my maximum rate should be 134. I could add or subtract from that but I'll leave it there for the time being unless someone has other input.

So I'm committed to this for the next 3 or 4 months.

Question: I also enjoy weightlifting. And I'm not going to stop. I do a full body workout once per week and an upper body workout once per week, so I think that is ample recovery time. My pulse will go up to 160 or so with deadlifts. Is this going to hurt my progress building an aerobic base?

Thanks!

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posted Jun-30-2007 08:33 PM               

My resting HR (90ish) has no say? Walking around's about 110-115? Normal, genetic. So my magic # would be about 30 bpm higher than normal? Which is possible, just checking.

I have a least one hour and one half hour (at the very least)per week where it is not possible to keep my HR so low. You seem to be saying this in effect would negate MAF training?
I'm hitting 210+

other than that you plan is train as normal while basebuilding?
Mel

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posted Jun-30-2007 09:18 PM               

quote:

---

Originally posted by grapejelly:

Question: I also enjoy weightlifting. And I'm not going to stop. I do a full body workout once per week and an upper body workout once per week, so I think that is ample recovery time. My pulse will go up to 160 or so with deadlifts. Is this going to hurt my progress building an aerobic base?

Thanks!

---

As long as you spend a lot more time running at MAF than weightlifting,
I doubt it will seriously affect things. Nonetheless, you should just
keep sort of a "checklist of violations" in case at some point you want
to make guess as to why progress is slow, things aren't working or
whatever. I've never eliminated my upper body weight workouts, but
they don't add up to more than about 1-1.5 hrs per week, a very small
percentage of my weekly training volume.

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posted Jun-30-2007 09:23 PM               

quote:

---

Originally posted by melistic:
couple of questions.

My resting HR (90ish) has no say? Walking around's about 110-115? Normal, genetic. So my magic # would be about 30 bpm higher than normal? Which is possible, just checking.

I have a least one hour and one half hour (at the very least)per week where it is not possible to keep my HR so low. You seem to be saying this in effect would negate MAF training?
I'm hitting 210+

other than that you plan is train as normal while basebuilding?
Mel

---

Actually, your resting heart rate is another indicator of your
overall fitness, so a very high one will naturally slow you down
if you want to stay aerobic. How much are you running per week?
What brings you into MAF training? Certainly if you're doing a lot
of stuff that will have you well above MAF during the week, you're
not likely to see the desired training effect. That doesn't mean that
you can never develop a solid fitness, but rather that your constraints
prevent you from using such an approach.

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posted Jun-30-2007 10:57 PM               

quote:

---

Originally posted by leitnerj:
Actually, your resting heart rate is another indicator of your overall fitness, so a very high one will naturally slow you down if you want to stay aerobic.
Come again? slow me aerobically?
How much are you running per week?
Running currently between 2-5 miles/ 6days/week With one long run (about 7), one speedwork day, other days at will. (hills, trail, soccer) Two kickboxing classes, Two spin classes, One outdoor bike, xtraining 3xW, assorted nuts & bolts.
What brings you into MAF training?
I'm looking to understand the philosopy and principles and practicality. Plus, I want to see if I can apply it to swimming, where my HR goes CRAZY
Certainly if you're doing a lot of stuff that will have you well above MAF during the week, you'renot likely to see the desired training effect.
It's surely used by folks more active than me.
That doesn't mean that you can never develop a solid fitness, but rather that your constraints prevent you from using such an approach. ...
I'd like to think I have a solid fitness base. Your methods obviously have a following. I've come to see the essence of MAF.

---

I'm not trying to be smart. Just so you know, it can be hard to tell on.line
Mel

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posted Jun-30-2007 11:16 PM               

if it helps,
Mel

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posted Jul-01-2007 09:42 AM               

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posted Jul-01-2007 10:16 AM            

I was thinking about adding 1 tempo run/week after I finish week 8 of MAF, but I am not sure if I am ready to do that. Input please.

I am a little under 60mpw and doing all my runs at a very slow pace . At 5 1/2 weeks now, I have done one assessment at 3 weeks, using same route and similar weather conditions, with little variation is rest/sleep/eating/stress.
1st run - avgHR 137 @ avg 14:43mm
3 weeks later - avg HR 133 avg 13:48mm

That being said, heat and humidity make it hard to distinguish improvement from plateau to me. I have been avging mostly 14:40 on a hilly route, staying at 133/134. I am taking in consideration the heat/humidity before thinking I am just slowing down. I'm in Raleigh, NC BTW... I'll switch my next assessment to the TM to make it more viable to track progess, but won't have enough time to decide on the 8 week change thing...
I work full time, sleep an avg of 6hrs/night, and do most of my runs in the morning.
I am not doing any strength training yet. Waiting for more base first.

TIA
Taciana

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posted Jul-01-2007 10:17 AM            

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posted Jul-01-2007 10:22 AM               

quote:

---

Originally posted by Harper:
Restarting this thread is like reloading the Matrix. How many times have you been The One now, leitnerj?

---

Well, let's just say someone had to restart the thing or people were
going to keep posting in that other beast. I just had the impression
that the other thread was actually having some effect on my
internet connection at work. (I don't even go to coolrunning at work).

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posted Jul-01-2007 10:37 AM            

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posted Jul-01-2007 11:14 AM               

)I'm also fuzzy on how higher intensity training would hinder. Don't you need an overload response to see gains even in cardio health.

I can manage many things w/ just a slight increase in HR. And it has dropped several points in the last couple years. (my basketball playing brother's is actually higher, that's why I say genetic, my B.P. drops too when I work out) I really need to be working hard to get it way up.You are right when I run it tends to stay in a MAF range. I'm 32. shh. Most of the miles are between 130-155. However just jumping in the pool makes it go haywire so that's where I'm looking to mellow out.

Thanks Jesse, for taking the time,
Mel

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posted Jul-01-2007 11:15 AM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by monk03:
A question for the LHR guys. I've noticed looking at some ot your logs that you record an "Average HR" for your runs. That being true..do you average your heart rates during a run? For example my 70%HRR is 150. During a run my HR might hit 155 or 160 towards the end of a run. But it will average 150 for the run. Is this the correct way of doing things? Not MAF per say more like Hadd I guess.

---

Not if you're doing the aerobic base training phase as prescribed by Dr. Phil Maffetone. Once you figure your MAF (maximum aerobic function) with the 180-age formula (read about here), then you should try to stay at or under the number. If your MAF is 140, seeing a 5-10 second blip or two at the end of the run of 141-142 will happen, but you try to keep it at 140 and under, on hills as well. Even with HADD, you are not supposed to go over the limit of the particular zone in which you are working.

Again, if your limit is 140, you could theoretically run half the run at 170bpm and the other half at 110bpm, and you'd average 140.

That's not working either program correctly.

Some people will let themselves go over due to mental stress. OR create another program entirely that is their own idea, but cannot be called either HADD or MAF training.

Keep going!

--Jimmy

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posted Jul-01-2007 11:20 AM               

quote:

---

Originally posted by melistic:
In either case, you're not running a whole
lot and in your list of activities, the running is going to be the
primary contributor to lowering your resting heart rate.
...
**Why would not the biking and the boxing have the same effect? I really have little desire to run more than the 20-30 mpw. But I would like better aerobic capacity.

)

I can manage many things w/ just a slight increase in HR. And it has dropped several points in the last couple years. (my basketball playing brother's is actually higher, that's why I say genetic, my B.P. drops too when I work out) I really need to be working hard to get it way up.You are right when I run it tends to stay in a MAF range. I'm 32. shh. Most of the miles are between 130-155. However just jumping in the pool makes it go haywire so that's where I'm looking to mellow out.

Thanks Jesse, for taking the time,
Mel

---

I can't say I know much about how the boxing will lower RHR.
Biking definitely does, but you need volume, I'd say at least 100-200
mpw at a reasonable effort, to really see the effect. So, I'd say
the place you want to focus right now (as you said) is in the pool.
Are you wearing your monitor in the pool or just checking pulse?
I know to get things down in the pool took a concerted effort to
slow the pace down and focus on form. It took time and an initial
phase of a dead slow, almost drowning, pace, but that didn't
last very long. Also, lots of laps! I have a feeling that doing
mostly (or a high quantity of) anaerobic activities do not have
a positive effect on resting heart rate (i.e., reducing it). Hence,
lots of basketball won't help and boxing may be the same thing
(although, I could picture an aerobic training program for boxing -
just doesn't sound to me like it would be common.) In your case,
you may benefit from reading some of Maffetone's books because
he does take things outside of the running realm and he may
address some of your specific concerns.

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posted Jul-01-2007 11:25 AM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by melistic:
couple of questions.

My resting HR (90ish) has no say? Walking around's about 110-115? Normal, genetic. So my magic # would be about 30 bpm higher than normal? Which is possible, just checking.

I have a least one hour and one half hour (at the very least)per week where it is not possible to keep my HR so low. You seem to be saying this in effect would negate MAF training?
I'm hitting 210+

other than that you plan is train as normal while basebuilding?
Mel

---

In the MAF program, resting and max heart rate do not matter. If you truly give the program a go, then it's 180-age and a few adjustments to that number.

If you truly work the program, if you can't keep your heart rate below the MAF while running, then you need to mix in walk breaks. It's indicator that your aerobic system needs a lot of work. If you stick with it, and build time or volume a bit over time, you won't have to walk after awhile.

Doesn't mean you can't create your own program and train anyway you like, of course. Some people feel stressed out with the slow running that happens in the beginning (temporary) and will basically do another program where they run 10-20 beats over, so relieve the stress, so they can enjoy themselves more. Whether or not that sabotages their goal of aerobic base building is beyond my ken at this moment, but MAffetone believes it would.

Keep going!

--Jimmy

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posted Jul-01-2007 12:11 PM               

The goal being to stay entirely w/in an aerobic state to lower resting H.R and burn fat while building an aerobic base. Most of it makes valid sense.
I would think the theories would take into account where/when you went anerobic. I will read further into it because you have piqued my interest. The one size fits all worries me as I know how ineffective MHR 220-age is for most of the populous.
@ 180 -32 = 148. I could run there for days. My long run is @ 135 mostly. ( which if I read right you are saying is too low) And I can jope rope under Maf quite easily. So it's seems as I just naturally tend to follow some of the principals.
I will work on it in the pool. I can see the drowning pace now. But that's o.k. anything that will calm me, I'll take.

Thanks for the answers,
Melissa

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posted Jul-01-2007 12:46 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by melistic:
Thanks Jimmy & Jesse,
I think I understand Dr. Phil's approach a little better now.

The goal being to stay entirely w/in an aerobic state to lower resting H.R and burn fat while building an aerobic base. Most of it makes valid sense.
I would think the theories would take into account where/when you went anerobic. I will read further into it because you have piqued my interest. The one size fits all worries me as I know how ineffective MHR 220-age is for most of the populous.
@ 180 -32 = 148. I could run there for days. My long run is @ 135 mostly. ( which if I read right you are saying is too low) And I can jope rope under Maf quite easily. So it's seems as I just naturally tend to follow some of the principals.
I will work on it in the pool. I can see the drowning pace now. But that's o.k. anything that will calm me, I'll take.

Thanks for the answers,
Melissa

---

Melissa,

Your zone would be 138-148. Depending on the length of the run, reserve your first 1-4 miles as a "warming into your zone" period (warm-up). At least 15-20 minutes, more doesn't hurt. Maffetone and Mittleman are very adamant about warming up and cooling down--for health reasons. I agree with them. Here's an example of one of my longer runs lately. My MAF is currently 129 (180-46)-5(injury in past year):

pace....AveHR
13:04 100
12:22 113
12:22 114
12:24 116
12:46 119
14:00 121 (1 mile hill)
11:07 123 (downhill)
13:59 126 (1 mile hill)
11:29 126 (downhill)
12:26 125
12:23 128
12:43 129

I was starting to see 119 in the 4th mile.
A short run like a 4-5-miler, keep it low (MAF-20 or so) for the first mile, getting to MAF -10 in the 2nd mile.

Then once you are in your zone, you can play all sorts of games:

--once you hit MAF-10, keep that pace. Making smaller HR goals like I do above. EG. Making sure I don't get to MAF -5 until I have 3 miles left.
You can segment the run in all sorts of ways (example below):

Mile 1-3 MAF-20 to MAF -10
Mile 4-5 MAF -10 to MAF -9
Mile 6-7 MAF -8 to MAF -7
Mile 8-9 MAF -6 to MAF -5
Mile 10-12 MAF -4 to MAF

--some get the HR up to MAF-5 and stay in that 5 beat zone, slowing down to stay there. Over time, if you are not slowing at all staying in that small zone, you've made huge progress.

--aerobic intervals:
-----run a 20-30 minute warm-up. Then accelerate until your HR reaches MAF. Stay at MAF for 5 minutes, or .25 miles, or .5 miles, whatever.
Then decelerate until your HR reaches MAF -15 to MAF -10. DO that for
5 minutes, .25 miles, .5 miles, whatever. Repeat 4 times. Building up over time to ten or more.

--downhill repeats:
warm-up 20-30 minutes
find a hill that isn't too steep, but that is LONG. At least a half mile of uphill grade. Can vary, but should be constantly uphill for awhile. Run up, staying in a MAF-5 to MAF zone, or anything lower, then run down staying in the same zone. You can work on your turnover and build those downhill muscles. The uphill muscles will get a good working as well.

--run in fig leaves covering your naughty bits, staying und MAF -20 so people can get a good look and be outwardly horrified socially, but secretly envious and impressed and full of fantasy at the same time.

This program takes a lot of patience, but it pays off big time. It is key to build your time and/or mileage. No more than 10% per week. 5% is a better number. If you do that, and religiously stay under your MAF, you should see progress in pace after a few months or so. Remember it took MArk Allen, an elite athlete, 6 months to see 1 minute of progress, and a year for 3 minutes. Keep a long-term payoff in mind. It's an investment in next year...

Keep going!

--Jimmy

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posted Jul-01-2007 12:58 PM            

Progress report on my 67-year old friend who had lost his spirit and was about to give up running. A man with 34 marathons under his belt, and hundreds of shorter races. A real dedicated runner, who did some incredible things. His sciatica and legs felt like crap, and he could only run a few miles. He would train the "run everything hard" approach, ladder-type intervals at the track. When he said he was going to quit because he just wasn't having any fun anymore, I said to him "Since you're ready to quit, why don't you try one more thing." Somehow, I got an old-timer to give MAFF a try. I gave him a spare HRM and MAffetone's High Performance Heart book. He set a zone of 113-123 (180-age +10 for being 67--senior discount). AFter three weeks, he's running 28 miles per week, and loving runniing again. His sciatica is not a problem, and his legs are feeling great on the majority of his runs. We are running together on Sundays, and he's like this young boy that is chomping at the bit, he feels so good. He keeps calling me "coach" and saying things like "I feel like I could go faster, but I'll be a good boy, stay under the 123." I am so psyched for him. He has been revived!!

Hopefully he'll stay smart and remember why he is feeling good, and not run himself back into his former state.

So, there is a growing success story.

Thanks to Gino and Nick, as he read both your stories and was truly inspired.

--Jimmy

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