posted Jul-16-2007 05:34 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by Gregolowe:
I've been running for about a year and a half now. Took off 4 months last year as I got injured. Anyways, I have 11 weeks to my first Ultra Marathon, the Vermont 50. Would it do any good to start doing my runs at MAF pace? I'm 38 so that would be about 144 I think. Is there benefit, or should I just keep training as I am (trying to keep my heart rate somewhere from 150-170)?

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My opinion (just as one voice of many) is YES! I think in that time you could make great strides toward an aerobic base. And, in a 50 miler, its all aerobic. Going higher would be counter-productive, IMO.

FWIW, I ran my 50 mile PR 2 months ago (3rd effort) and I did 90-95% of my runs at or under MAF pace. In fact, some of the longer ones I did about 15 beats below MAF pace - figuring I might really slow in the 50. Glad I did; most of my MAF runs were 9:30-10:00 min/mi pace. By mile 35 of the 50, I was slowing to 11:30, then 12:00 when running.

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posted Jul-17-2007 06:46 AM            

I did a treadmill run yesterday and made sure to drink water every now and then. I finished a 16 oz bottle and the run certainly felt much easier. It does raise my heart rate though every time I take a drink! It could be from the choking because I'm not used to drinking and jogging... I think I'm going to try something with electrolytes, though, because of the saltiness I get on my face. Experiment, experiment, experiment sure seems to be the name of this game.

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posted Jul-17-2007 07:57 AM            

My weekly mileages:
JANUARY 8th THRU JULY 15TH (27 weeks)
26
29
32
18
31
13
15
25
26
29
22
23
17
31
27
33
35
38
32
40
43
26
40
46
29
42
47

27 weeks
Total increase from week 1 to week 27: 20 miles per week
%increase: 77%
ave. rate of increase per week: 3%

More important information!!! Now you can all sleep tonight!

--Jimmy

MAF log
profeelia

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posted Jul-17-2007 08:01 AM               

quote:

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Originally posted by litefoot:
I know the formula for MAF is 180 - Age. For me, using the MHR firmula of 220 - Age, then MAF is 70-75% of MHR. Now, if I found, by testing, that my MHR was more than the rate determined by 220 - Age formula, would I then bump my MAF up to 70-75% of the tested MHR, or would I just stick with the 180 - Age number.

Also, my running route is up a long gradual hill which makes it very hard to maintain MAF. How much aerobic benefit/progress would I lose if I adjusted up to MAF+5? Thank you all. I really want to learn.

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Since I posted this a couple of days, I did not adjust up to MAF+5, but I did change my running from afternoon to early morning (about 5 am). What a difference the temperature makes! My pace went from about 10:40 to 9:30ish at an average HR of MAF minus 5. Can the temperature make that much difference? Anyway, the pace feels great. Very relaxed without feeling like I'm chasing turtles.
However, it seems like I'm starting to pick up more interference on my HRM these last couple of days. Not sure where it's coming from.

[This message has been edited by litefoot (edited Jul-17-2007).]

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posted Jul-17-2007 08:13 AM               

quote:

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Originally posted by Aetheana:
Thanks for the advice on hydration everyone.

I did a treadmill run yesterday and made sure to drink water every now and then. I finished a 16 oz bottle and the run certainly felt much easier. It does raise my heart rate though every time I take a drink! It could be from the choking because I'm not used to drinking and jogging... I think I'm going to try something with electrolytes, though, because of the saltiness I get on my face. Experiment, experiment, experiment sure seems to be the name of this game.

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I used to have a terrible problem with drinking while running (insert alcohol joke here)...you might want to try the handheld bottles from Ultimate Direction. I'm not sure what they call their spout technology, or why it works so much better, but it worked wonders for me. Good luck!

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posted Jul-17-2007 09:08 AM               

quote:

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Originally posted by litefoot:
My pace went from about 10:40 to 9:30ish at an average HR of MAF minus 5. Can the temperature make that much difference?

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YES!

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MyRunningLog
MyStuff
Low Heart Rate Training FAQ
My marathons and ultras
My races and reports

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posted Jul-17-2007 09:31 AM               

MAF HR: 146bpm.
Warm up: 1/4M walk followed by a slow 1M jog (HR in 130s)
Then:
Mile 1: 9:38
Mile 2: 10:01
Mile 3: 10:15
Mile 4: 10:32
Mile 5: 10:59

Does this look fairly normal? I'm new at this, so I could use some help with interpretation. I felt great during the run. The first mile felt pretty normal to me, but I felt like I was crawling by mile 5, and had a lot more trouble controlling my HR.

Thanks for all the great advice on this thread everyone! I really appreciate having you all as a resource!

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posted Jul-17-2007 09:33 AM               

MAF HR: 146bpm.
Warm up: 1/4M walk followed by a slow 1M jog (HR in 130s)
Then:
Mile 1: 9:38
Mile 2: 10:01
Mile 3: 10:15
Mile 4: 10:32
Mile 5: 10:59

Does this look fairly normal? I'm new at this, so I could use some help with interpretation. I felt great during the run. The first mile felt pretty normal to me, but I felt like I was crawling by mile 5, and had a lot more trouble controlling my HR.

Thanks for all the great advice on this thread everyone! I really appreciate having you all as a resource!

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ME!

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posted Jul-17-2007 09:33 AM               

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posted Jul-17-2007 09:45 AM            

Thanks!

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posted Jul-17-2007 09:46 AM            

Question, don't know if this is the place here, but what should your AvgHR for a 5k be? Mine was 95%Max is that about right?

I have another 5k in two weeks plus a half in 2.5 weeks. Hopefully, we'll get that Daniels VDOT to 48 (at 47 now). My best VDOT was 51.6 last year.

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posted Jul-17-2007 11:23 AM            

quote:

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Originally posted by litefoot:
Since I posted this a couple of days, I did not adjust up to MAF+5, but I did change my running from afternoon to early morning (about 5 am). What a difference the temperature makes! My pace went from about 10:40 to 9:30ish at an average HR of MAF minus 5. Can the temperature make that much difference? Anyway, the pace feels great. Very relaxed without feeling like I'm chasing turtles.
However, it seems like I'm starting to pick up more interference on my HRM these last couple of days. Not sure where it's coming from.

[This message has been edited by litefoot (edited Jul-17-2007).]

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Absolutely it can. I told ya so! Of course, some people handle heat a bit better than others, but everyone is impacted by it.

I really want just ONE day in the 50's here so I can really test my MAF outside on my normal route(s). I need that boost of confidence as well for my fall marathon!

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posted Jul-17-2007 01:47 PM            

1) How long should I, or do I need too, stay on the modified heart rate?
2) When I am done with the modified heart rate do I move up 5 or 10 beats per minute? If it helps I had this same operation done in October of last year and these two instances are the only breaks I've had in running over the last 2 years (6 weeks the previous operation due to complications and 3 weeks this time around).
a) If I move up only 5 beats per minute then for how long? And then when I am done do I move up the final 10 beats to begin training there??
b) If I move up 10 beats per minute, to my regular maximum aerobic heart rate, then is this the beginning of my training??

My concern is moving too quickly up to my maximum aerobic heart rate. If that is even an issue.

Thank you in advance for any info you can give to me in regards to these questions. And feel free to ask for any additional info if it is needed.

Wanted to bump this up to see if I could get a response in regards to the length of time I should be running the modified max aerobic HR.
I guess my thoughts are, since my base needs work anyway, I was going to stick to the 133 HR for 12 weeks, move up to 138 for 12 weeks, and then 143 for 12 weeks more. This will take me to Marc h 23rd of 2008.

Also, I notice that my knees are sore at the end of the run. Not painful just sore. Is this unusual??

[This message has been edited by Hugoriffic (edited Jul-21-2007).]

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posted Jul-17-2007 01:53 PM               

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posted Jul-17-2007 02:03 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by Aetheana:
It does raise my heart rate though every time I take a drink! It could be from the choking because I'm not used to drinking and jogging...

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The only way that I can drink without choking while running is by taking frequent small sips out of a bottle with a "squirt" top. Otherwise (road, trail, track) one can just walk while drinking.

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posted Jul-17-2007 02:04 PM            

The formula for post-surgery calls for this: 180 - (Age + 10) = max. aerobic HR.

I'm assuming the additional drop of 10 bpm is to help aid with recovery.

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posted Jul-17-2007 03:01 PM               

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posted Jul-17-2007 03:04 PM            

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posted Jul-17-2007 04:51 PM               

quote:

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Originally posted by Gregolowe:
Hey Jesse, can you give me your opinion as well about running the remainder of my 11 weeks prior to VT 50 at MAF? Would this hurt or hinder my performance in the race? This is my first attempt at and Ultra. My fear is that if I slow my pace down, my miles will be cut way back and I will not get in the required mileage prior to the race and I will be undertrained. I definitely want to build my aerobic base. I've been convinced by the reading and your experience. It aligns with what we know about cell physiology/energy production. My question is should I start now this close to the race, or just keep training as I am and pick up the base building after the race as I set my sights down the road to a 100 next year.

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Just wanted to bump this back to the top as I'd love everybody's input on this. I fear my miles will be cut back too much should I try to do this. After posting this, I went out and ran a 4 miler, 2 out and 2 back. Out, no problem. On the way back, I had to walk alot more and added 5 minutes to the return trip. I obviously don't have good aerobic endurance. Do I implement the training and lose miles now, or keep training as I was and gut it out through the race and impliment it after the race? Completing the 50, hopefully from 10-12 hours, is my goal for this year. After that, I'd like to work up to a 100. TWOT maybe.

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posted Jul-17-2007 07:24 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by Gregolowe:
Just wanted to bump this back to the top as I'd love everybody's input on this. I fear my miles will be cut back too much should I try to do this. After posting this, I went out and ran a 4 miler, 2 out and 2 back. Out, no problem. On the way back, I had to walk alot more and added 5 minutes to the return trip. I obviously don't have good aerobic endurance. Do I implement the training and lose miles now, or keep training as I was and gut it out through the race and impliment it after the race? Completing the 50, hopefully from 10-12 hours, is my goal for this year. After that, I'd like to work up to a 100. TWOT maybe.

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DISCLAIMER: I have never run a 50 mile race!

However, they are obviously very much dependent on aerobic endurance. How many marathons have you run? Did they go well....fairly even pacing throughout?

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posted Jul-17-2007 07:50 PM               

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posted Jul-17-2007 10:33 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by Gregolowe:
Whadda ya think?

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life is short
go for it
but do the MAF training until the race
it will help immensely
Speedwork or anything too high in your aerobic zone
isn't going to get you through 26 without some decent
fat-burning going on, let alone 50. You'll be running out of glycogen
by mile 19-20, leaving a 30 mile death march.
Endurance.
I hope you have a great experience!

--Jimmy

@@@@
MAF log

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posted Jul-17-2007 10:38 PM            

The best way to train - esp. with 11 weeks - is to build a solid aerobic base through slow efforts. Even if its a fair amount of walking. Heck, I've run 3 50-milers. I've trained a fair amount of miles; and have walked about 2 hours worth of each of them.

The worst thing to do, IMO, would be to run too fast between now and then - you really need to build, maximize your aerobic base.

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posted Jul-17-2007 11:06 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by dcv2002:
Just another update. After only 12 weeks of running (after 3+ months off) at MAF or below (except for races), ran a 21:02 5k yesterday. Only 51 seconds off my PR. So I guess I can attest that you can still run fast (6:45 pace) off of running slow (most of my runs have been 9:00mpm or slower). My AHR was 176 and MaxHR 183. My max is 185 and MAF is 145.

Question, don't know if this is the place here, but what should your AvgHR for a 5k be? Mine was 95%Max is that about right?

I have another 5k in two weeks plus a half in 2.5 weeks. Hopefully, we'll get that Daniels VDOT to 48 (at 47 now). My best VDOT was 51.6 last year.

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I think you're right on. In a 2-mile; I generally can (if I'm tough enough) hit max HR. In a 5K; if I tried it, I'd collapse at 2 miles. 95% is a great effort.

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posted Jul-17-2007 11:43 PM            

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