posted Jul-14-2007 06:21 PM               

quote:

---

Originally posted by catwoman73:
Thanks for the advice, Nick. The interesting thing is- I really did feel like I was going out slow today. It was certainly slow compared to what I have been doing! And my HR peaked at 133bpm for that first mile, so I really thought that I'd be able to maintain that pace and stay under MAF (for me- 146) for the entire run. But- obviously I was wrong, and will plan to go out even slower next time. This was my first day at this- I think I'll be experimenting for a while to find what works for me.

Just another nutrition question for anyone out there- I walk to work. 3km in each direction, and work 4 days out of every 9. I walk at a good clip, and consider those walks to be part of my cross training. Do I need to avoid eating carbs before my walks as well as my runs? That would require some pretty serious dietary adjustments- I'm gonna need some time to figure out how to do it!

Pam

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The walks are probably a productive part of your base building.
Don't worry about what you eat or drink before your walks. You
will burn mostly fat while walking almost no matter what.

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posted Jul-14-2007 07:29 PM               

quote:

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Originally posted by dfcameron:
I noticed that my average HR was generally 130; but I'd have stretches over 150 (which is over MAF) and not realize it. Then I'd feel tired the next day.

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That's been my experience as well and that's why I recently went back to wearing the monitor every day. Once my HR gets into the 150s for significant periods of my daily runs, I can get away with it for a few days, even a week or two but then I start feeling excessive fatigue and have to slow down significantly for a few days or weeks. Staying under MAF helps keep me consistent.

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posted Jul-14-2007 11:15 PM            

http://fitnessintuition.com/wordpress/2007/07/04/how-to-get-fast/

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posted Jul-15-2007 11:00 AM               

quote:

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Originally posted by dfcameron:
A good article for this thread. Talks about getting faster; although I believe only relevant once a long aerobic base is established. But read the paragraph about the 77-79% HR. I'd bet the author (George's) MAF is in that range.

http://fitnessintuition.com/wordpress/2007/07/04/how-to-get-fast/

---

He used to post in one of the old books of this thread (I think
about 3 books ago).

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posted Jul-15-2007 11:08 AM               

quote:

---

Originally posted by dfcameron:
Strong disagreement here. The "rule of thumb" (which has wide variance) is that Max HR is 220 minus age.

For me, and for all my friends ( that measure heart rate ), max HR is fixed over a short period of time - but over years, steadily declines. It may not be "one beat per year", but it definitely declines.

For me (when in shape), and 8:00 min/mi pace corresponds to a heart rate of between 155 and 160. The problem is, when I was 25, that was only about 78% of max HR - and I could keep it up for a long time w/o waste buildup. Now, its 86% of max HR - and if I do a longish run at that pace, I'm whipped for days afterward. Eventually, when I'm 65, that WILL be my max.

---

Like Nick said, I've seen conflicting stuff on whether max HR declines with age. The bulk of what I've read suggest that it declines a little, but not much. (see a sample link below). I'm not a physiologist and at the end of the day, I don't suppose it matters a whit. Your max is whatever it is and we run for the fun of it.

If you saw my two busted up thumbs, you'd know why I don't credit rules of thumb. It's about as consistent as a cubit.

http://circres.ahajournals.org/cgi/content/full/88/10/984

Oh and by the way, long live the low HR philosophy. I got carried away earlier in the summer adding tempo runs and intervals and, of course, messed up my hip and ended up recuperating with those ego-crushing slow miles -- you know when granny wearing a belt with 18 water bottles blows by you without her feet ever leaving the ground. Now I'm back to healthy and the slow miles are becoming slower. Sure makes running more fun.

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posted Jul-15-2007 11:57 AM               

quote:

---

Originally posted by martinjames:

Oh and by the way, long live the low HR philosophy. I got carried away earlier in the summer adding tempo runs and intervals and, of course, messed up my hip and ended up recuperating with those ego-crushing slow miles -- you know when granny wearing a belt with 18 water bottles blows by you without her feet ever leaving the ground. Now I'm back to healthy and the slow miles are becoming slower. Sure makes running more fun.

---

Yeah, it's kind of funny - I get a lot of questions about when I will
graduate to "real" training and every time I have tried to, it never
seems to go right, probably because those of us that really have
had to bite the bullet, suck it up, and "get low" have a propensity
to beat ourselves up. Ultimately, however, you should strive to
dabble in the speed/tempo work but always sustain the low base
and know when it's time to stay almost strictly low.

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posted Jul-15-2007 12:23 PM               

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posted Jul-15-2007 02:19 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by martinjames:
It's about as consistent as a cubit.

---

I think you're right. I've been using the Mesopotamian cubit to build a scale-downed version of the Fenway Park in my backyard. Hoping that it will become a tourist attraction. The little Green Monster keeps collapsing on the Manny made of macaroni.

Although I did find, in my single days, that if I described my personal endowment in cubits, I tended to attract the "I am your queen. Show me your cubits NOW" Cleopatra types. They were fun, but when they went Elizabeth Taylor on me, I got claustrophobic, and had to skidaddle.

--Jimmy

profeli
MAF
log

[This message has been edited by jjwaverly42 (edited Jul-15-2007).]

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posted Jul-15-2007 07:14 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by martinjames:
Like Nick said, I've seen conflicting stuff on whether max HR declines with age. The bulk of what I've read suggest that it declines a little, but not much. (see a sample link below). I'm not a physiologist and at the end of the day, I don't suppose it matters a whit. Your max is whatever it is and we run for the fun of it.

---

Oh well... we'll have to agree to disagree here. My initial posting was to someone who said they disagreed that my max heart rate has dropped by 20 beats over the 29 years I've been running. That max HR stays constant.

First of all, I don't see how someone could disagree with me on my own heart rate! That's the more important thing.

Secondly, I have a number of friends who've been running for upwards of 20 years; and have measured their max HR over time - and all of them have seen dropoffs over the years. In fact, I have a theory that the main reason people slow down over the years is because max HR declines; and so running at a percentage of max HR gets slower because the HR at which one runs gets lower.

I did follow your link - and empirically don't agree... but as you said - it doesn't matter. The key is to run within what is the best range for our heart today. Unfortunately, my max is definitely dropping (albeit slowly over the years) as it is for my running friends; so my MAF drops.

Right now, though, I've moved up to 4 straight weeks of 80 MPW - 90% run at an average HR around 130-140, when my max is 183. Like Jesse, if I pushed the higher paced/faster heart rate running up to 20% or 30% of my total mileage - I'd fall apart quickly. I'd neither maintain 80 mile weeks; nor have a day like today where I ran 12 miles and felt great the whole way.

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posted Jul-16-2007 12:59 AM            

I am thinkinging about HR training after I do a half marathon in september for base mileage before my next half next may. So like October - Febuarary. Would this have potential, or am I just wasting my time if I only plan on doing it for 4 months then moving onto my tempo runs & speed intervals and long runs at 80-90% effort.

My resting HR is 45-48, depending on day to day basis, seems lower at altitude. Alltime low was 39, recorded after I when to a hospital in texas after blowing an ear-drum, no idea the elevation, it was 2hrs SW of dallas. Could I be in the "well trained ready for harder stuff" camp mentioned already?

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posted Jul-16-2007 08:19 AM               

quote:

---

Originally posted by Long Run Nick:
Note to martinjames,
Thanks for the article. I had never given a thought that flies have hearts. That was some article, my hat is off to all scientific researchers--wow! Also, I have always had a heck of a hard time finding fly feces in pepper. Nick

---

And yet it's so easy to see on salt . . .

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posted Jul-16-2007 08:29 AM               

quote:

---

Originally posted by martinjames:
Like Nick said, I've seen conflicting stuff on whether max HR declines with age. The bulk of what I've read suggest that it declines a little, but not much. (see a sample link below). I'm not a physiologist and at the end of the day, I don't suppose it matters a whit. Your max is whatever it is and we run for the fun of it.

If you saw my two busted up thumbs, you'd know why I don't credit rules of thumb. It's about as consistent as a cubit.

http://circres.ahajournals.org/cgi/content/full/88/10/984

Oh and by the way, long live the low HR philosophy. I got carried away earlier in the summer adding tempo runs and intervals and, of course, messed up my hip and ended up recuperating with those ego-crushing slow miles -- you know when granny wearing a belt with 18 water bottles blows by you without her feet ever leaving the ground. Now I'm back to healthy and the slow miles are becoming slower. Sure makes running more fun.

---

BTW, i must have written this after my sun-soaked 2-hour adventure along the canal. I meant the slow miles are becoming faster.

Geese terrify me. If any of you are secretly geese, i'm out of this forum.

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posted Jul-16-2007 09:14 AM               

quote:

---

Originally posted by martinjames:
Geese terrify me. If any of you are secretly geese, i'm out of this forum.

---

Dammit, you blew my cover ...

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posted Jul-16-2007 09:14 AM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by leitnerj:
However, I have recently formulated an opinion on when it's
best to add speed work! ..... But, I'd say the prime time to add it is when you have difficulty keeping your heart rate up at MAF during your runs. It's a sign that you're getting too comfortable with such a nice comfortable pace and that your aerobic system is starting to beat out your power and leg strength. I think speed work is just what the doctor ordered at that point!

---

At the beginning of LHR training, a pace of 10:00 seemed very slow ... now 10:00 seems like speed work! Maybe I have become too comfortable with MAF pace and need to
add some intensity. This last week was light mileage, but the previous week was an all time high of 6 days and 51 miles. I will try to get a few more 50+ weeks in and then, if I'm feeling strong, begin to add some intensity.

Thanks to everyone for sharing their experiences.

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posted Jul-16-2007 09:16 AM            

Too many scary nursery rhymes as a small child?

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posted Jul-16-2007 09:22 AM            

quote:

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Originally posted by bluelake:
Too many scary nursery rhymes as a small child?

---

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posted Jul-16-2007 09:50 AM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by Who Dey:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by leitnerj:
[b]However, I have recently formulated an opinion on when it's
best to add speed work! ..... But, I'd say the prime time to add it is when you have difficulty keeping your heart rate up at MAF during your runs. It's a sign that you're getting too comfortable with such a nice comfortable pace and that your aerobic system is starting to beat out your power and leg strength. I think speed work is just what the doctor ordered at that point!

---

At the beginning of LHR training, a pace of 10:00 seemed very slow ... now 10:00 seems like speed work! Maybe I have become too comfortable with MAF pace and need to
add some intensity. This last week was light mileage, but the previous week was an all time high of 6 days and 51 miles. I will try to get a few more 50+ weeks in and then, if I'm feeling strong, begin to add some intensity.

Thanks to everyone for sharing their experiences.[/B][/QUOTE]

What about heat though? I'm guessing your marathon race wasn't as hot as your training runs lately have been. Even so, it's just a number either way. My training runs have been a good 1.5 minutes higher than my marathon pace, if not higher. Heat/humidity is a killer on the heart rate, even when acclimated.

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posted Jul-16-2007 10:02 AM            

I have been finishing my long runs feeling very strong ... so much so that I have enjoyed picking up the pace at the end. In the past, that didn't happen too often. I just worry where the speed will come from this fall.

Heat is a significant factor. Every once in a while, when some relatively cool days come along, it is surprising how much my MAF pace picks up.

Maybe some other newbies can relate ... it's gratifying to be running "healthy", but I fear that I'm running so slow that whatever speed I did have has left me! "Have faith, have faith, have faith, have faith ..."

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posted Jul-16-2007 10:30 AM            

I have a question regarding hydration/fuel etc on running the MAF way. I did my VERY FIRST EVER 5 miler last night!! It was great, but I was out there for over 90 minutes. My MAF has me around 18 min/mi so it took me a good long time. I didn't even think or consider taking water or anything like a gel or something out there, but now I'm wondering if I should worry about that sort of thing? At what point should you start worrying about hydration/fueling? I should say that when I got home my stomach was all weird feeling and like I was hungry but bloated at the same time. I also had visible saltiness all over my face.

I know it sounds silly to be worried about this sort of thing doing 18 min/mi and only going 5 miles (but building that up to at least 8 eventually), but I am out there for a long time.

Any thoughts?

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posted Jul-16-2007 11:31 AM               

quote:

---

Originally posted by Aetheana:
Hi everyone,

I have a question regarding hydration/fuel etc on running the MAF way. I did my VERY FIRST EVER 5 miler last night!! It was great, but I was out there for over 90 minutes. My MAF has me around 18 min/mi so it took me a good long time. I didn't even think or consider taking water or anything like a gel or something out there, but now I'm wondering if I should worry about that sort of thing? At what point should you start worrying about hydration/fueling? I should say that when I got home my stomach was all weird feeling and like I was hungry but bloated at the same time. I also had visible saltiness all over my face.

I know it sounds silly to be worried about this sort of thing doing 18 min/mi and only going 5 miles (but building that up to at least 8 eventually), but I am out there for a long time.

Any thoughts?

---

Congratulations -- and it's not silly at all (you know, like a fear of geese crowding the towpath). 90 minutes is 90 minutes. I don't think there's any advantage to running without water. Bring a bottle and sip it regularly. Gatorade or something with electrolytes would be fine also. I'd also recommend drinking plenty of water the day beforehand. Unless of course, you're secretly a goose -- in which event I say skip the water and run 'til you drop and roll into the canal.

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posted Jul-16-2007 12:06 PM            

I make it a point to carry water with me on any run lasting longer than approximately one hour.

You didn't mention the time of day or temperature/humidity at the time of your run, but if you had salt stains on your face you were perspiring quite a bit. Definitely take water with you and take a drink every "x" minutes or "y" distance, whatever measure is convenient for you. I take sips from my bottle every mile. Don't wait until your thirsty to drink.

Use either a handheld strap to carry a bottle (I use one from Ultimate Direction) or a waist pack/holster of some kind.

For a run of 90 minutes, I wouldn't worry about electrolytes unless you experience problems associated with electrolyte depletion or you like the taste of drinks like Gatorade. If you like the taste better than water it might lead you to drink more, which is a good thing.

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posted Jul-16-2007 02:19 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by Aetheana:
Hi everyone,

I have a question regarding hydration/fuel etc on running the MAF way. I did my VERY FIRST EVER 5 miler last night!! It was great, but I was out there for over 90 minutes. My MAF has me around 18 min/mi so it took me a good long time. I didn't even think or consider taking water or anything like a gel or something out there, but now I'm wondering if I should worry about that sort of thing? At what point should you start worrying about hydration/fueling? I should say that when I got home my stomach was all weird feeling and like I was hungry but bloated at the same time. I also had visible saltiness all over my face.

I know it sounds silly to be worried about this sort of thing doing 18 min/mi and only going 5 miles (but building that up to at least 8 eventually), but I am out there for a long time.

Any thoughts?

---

It is not silly at all to be thinking about this. It's mostly a function of total water loss through perspiration, with electrolyte loss (i.e. sodium/salt, potassium, magnesium, etc) also a concern if you've been out too long.

One way to tell how much you should be hydrating is to weigh yourself both before and after a run. Assuming no potty/restroom breaks and that you dry off before weighing after the run, the weight loss will tell you the answer. Each pound is 1 pint (16 oz) of water. Each individual is different, and it depends on the weather, etc, but one old rule of thumb is 8 oz per 15-20 minutes (that may depend on pace, too.)

As an example: once I went out with 2 drink bottles, did a few miles to the high school track, did some easy intervals and laps, and re-filled one of the bottles from the water fountain. After more jogging, running, running trails, etc, I got home feeling kinda dry (it was a warm day) 4 1/2 hours later. No restroom breaks. Weighing myself, I was 5 lbs lighter. So with the 2 quarts replaced with water from the bottles, I had lost 9 lbs through perspiration. About a quart an hour.

Electrolyte replacement is a good thing for longer runs. I always carry some "Endurolyte" capsules, so that even if I get lost or stranded, I am ok if I can find water. Note - I don't get lost out in the boondocks, just in urban/suburban areas (LA and San Jose come to mind for "got lost" incidents.) Sport drinks are ok... if they don't have too many carbs for you. Visible saltiness on your face might mean you want the "endurance" sport drinks that have more sodium/salt in them. You will need to find out what works for you. Don't think that just because the pace is 18 m/m one would lose less through perspiration than someone at 6 m/m covering the same distance (they are only out there for 1/3 the time.)

Don't worry about "fueling" unless you have a specific medical condition that requires it. Unless you are going beyond 15 miles at a faster pace requiring you to burn a lot of glycogen (body's stored carbs) you won't need it. OTOH it doesn't harm you if there is a low enough carb % in a sport drink you're using (too much would retard emptying fluid from the stomach, a real problem for someone scarfing gels w/o enough water.) Since MAF pace is designed to cause a major % of fat burning, fueling is not a problem. Just one lb of fat provides enough energy for most folks to run a marathon (or more, for lighter people), so each of us has enough fat to go quite a few hundred miles. Even a 100 lb runner with only 10% body fat has 35000 calories of energy there. As long as there is *some* remaining glycogen or carb intake to enable a low level of carb metabolism, the fat metabolism will work just fine.

Good MAFing, and stay hydrated.

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posted Jul-16-2007 02:38 PM               

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posted Jul-16-2007 03:10 PM               

quote:

---

Originally posted by Who Dey:
Thanks Docster ... you're right ... heat is a factor. I enjoy my LHR runs very much, yet it concerns me that I have become so comfortable with a pace that I found painfully slow a few months ago. Does that make sense?

I have been finishing my long runs feeling very strong ... so much so that I have enjoyed picking up the pace at the end. In the past, that didn't happen too often. I just worry where the speed will come from this fall.

Heat is a significant factor. Every once in a while, when some relatively cool days come along, it is surprising how much my MAF pace picks up.

Maybe some other newbies can relate ... it's gratifying to be running "healthy", but I fear that I'm running so slow that whatever speed I did have has left me! "Have faith, have faith, have faith, have faith ..."

---

Sprinkle in a couple of shorter races 4-8 weeks out from your goal. I'm a believer that 2-3 shorter races won't retard your aerobic conditioning. It may help with your pace and will certainly work as a confidence booster.

I'm planning my second of 3-4 summer/fall races this coming weekend. Its just a 5k. Even with all of my training at MAF pace I'm certain that I will PR.

fabricated:
Questions:
What is a good, cheap (I am poor college student, so cheap is essential) HR monitor.

I have 2 cheap Timex Ironman monitor's. They both work very well. The cheaper of the 2 cost ~$40 on ebay. I actually bought (4) Timex's (2 for other family members). One of the monitors wasn't working right when I got it. I contacted Timex and they sent a brand new one very quickly.

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posted Jul-16-2007 03:17 PM               

quote:

---

Originally posted by Aetheana:
Hi everyone,

I have a question regarding hydration/fuel etc on running the MAF way. I did my VERY FIRST EVER 5 miler last night!! It was great, but I was out there for over 90 minutes. My MAF has me around 18 min/mi so it took me a good long time. I didn't even think or consider taking water or anything like a gel or something out there, but now I'm wondering if I should worry about that sort of thing? At what point should you start worrying about hydration/fueling? I should say that when I got home my stomach was all weird feeling and like I was hungry but bloated at the same time. I also had visible saltiness all over my face.

I know it sounds silly to be worried about this sort of thing doing 18 min/mi and only going 5 miles (but building that up to at least 8 eventually), but I am out there for a long time.

Any thoughts?

---

Aetheana,

Shoot me an email from my profile...I've got a hydration spreadsheet that will give you the information you're looking for.

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