posted Jul-13-2007 09:56 AM            

One thing that was stressed a lot was this no carbs 3 hours before the run. Does that mean no bread/sugar type carbs? What about the carbs found in veggies or fruit? Meat and fat only?

I overslept and couldn't run this AM. I'm doing a treadmill run this afternoon and need to schedule lunch. I have chicken and bit of cheese and broccoli. Do I need to be overly concerned when I eat it?

Thanks!
~Mary

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posted Jul-13-2007 10:35 AM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by Aetheana:
I'm making my way through archive MAF thread #2. Jimmy, you had just hit 100 miles in one week and were very proud. Jesse just did a trail 50 miler where his GPS crapped out and said he ran 317 miles. It's really cool that this thread has been going for so long and you can see the improvements people have made!

One thing that was stressed a lot was this no carbs 3 hours before the run. Does that mean no bread/sugar type carbs? What about the carbs found in veggies or fruit? Meat and fat only?

I overslept and couldn't run this AM. I'm doing a treadmill run this afternoon and need to schedule lunch. I have chicken and bit of cheese and broccoli. Do I need to be overly concerned when I eat it?

Thanks!
~Mary

---

If you don't eat a large meal, 2 hours is probably sufficient. When I do long runs on the weekend, I will usually have some cereal and then head out a few hours later.

No carbs before running, though. Really, I don't want much of anything in my stomach when I start runs.

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posted Jul-13-2007 11:37 AM               

quote:

---

Originally posted by dfcameron:
Runner 1967 -

Oh boy, I can chime in here. I ran high school track and XC (although I'm a little older than you) in similar times. My 5K PR was 17:47. My max HR was certainly over 200 then.

Fast forward to today. I'm now 44. My max HR is probably 183. My MAF is about 145. Most of my training is between 9:00-9:30 pace with occasional tempo runs at 7:00 min/mi pace.

I have no doubt that right now (if it were a little cooler) I could break a 3:40 marathon. I've always been able to race a marathon at least 1 min/mi faster than MAF pace for long runs.

5 years ago, just before I turned 40, I ran with friends who often left me behind in training runs. We'd start at 9:00 min/mi pace; and they'd often pick it up to around 8:40. I'd stay at 9:00, because at 8:40 - my HR would edge over what "felt right". Yet... on marathon day, I ran a 3:27, and they ran 3:30-3:35 (depending on person).

Now, with age 45 looming between now and the next Boston, the qualifying time eases to 3:30. I now have a new goal - get under 3:30. I've upped my mileage - ran 257 in April, 264 in May, 260 in June and will build a little more. I need a really strong aerobic base before I get back into speed work.

Sounds like we're similar in ability... So everyone's different; but you can set your sights high if you get the base in using LHR.

---

I'm also in the ballpark age-wise, although less experienced. I ran MCM at @ 86% max HR and National Marathon (DC) at @ 88%. I was 6 minutes faster at National and pushed hard the last 5 miles (BQ). I have a relatively low max HR, so I'm not a MAFF guy, but I do try to follow the low HR principles generally. Having said that, in preparation for National, I cranked up my long runs a notch or two (73% and up to 83% max HR near the end) and did a tempo run each week. Even then, my marathon day runs were faster and easier than those infernal long runs which were almost always at least 1:15 slower per mile, and usually closer to 1:45. I ran fewer miles though -- for whatever reason, I have trouble getting over 50 mpw.

I don't believe, by the way, that your max HR fell 17 bpm over time. Maybe a couple. Max HR is essentially fixed.

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posted Jul-13-2007 01:48 PM               

After reading through this thread, and reading all of the posted links, I've decided to give low HR training a try. I'm 34 years old and have only been running for one year. I ran my first HM in May, and am planning to run my second on Sept. 30th. During this past year, I've suffered from all sorts of aches and pains, and I've felt tired all the time. I do get sick frequently as well, and because I work in an intensive care unit, having a healthy immune system is of utmost importance. I want to be a healthy, life-long runner, and that is my biggest reason for giving this a try.

My question for you is- I understand the rationale for eating no carbs immediately before running, but I run first thing in the morning, and have ALWAYS eaten a small meal immediately before setting out on my run (yes- my stomach is made of iron!!!). I do this because I suffer from hypoglycemia, and always wake up absolutely famished! So- how should I approach eating now? Should I eat a couple of eggs before heading out? Or should I head out on an empty stomach, and start taking in small amounts of sports drink once I'm warmed up?

Any advice would be appreciated!

Thanx,
Pam

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posted Jul-13-2007 02:21 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by Runner1967:
OK, maybe I'm just naturally gifted or I'm going to be injury prone for the rest of my running career... but here goes.
<snip>
Twenty odd years ago I was a cross country runner finishing my 5k's in 18 minutes or so with a PR at 17:52, if I remember correctly.
<snip>
I've only been truly running since January/February
<snip>
I'm not a Kenyan by any means but after reading all of this I feel like I have a "leg up" (pun not intended) on many other newbie runners or I'm doing something very wrong.
<snip>
I have a progressive ordering of goals for my training.

1. Finish the marathon.
2. Finish the marathon in under 4 hours.
3. Finish the marathon in under 3:40
4. Finish the marathon and qualify for Boston (3:20 based on my age during my first marathon).

The first two appear to be relatively realistic. The 3rd would be a dream goal. and the 4th, well... probably not my first time out but if you don't set your goals high, you'll always be a bottom feeder.

---

Runner1967 –

You definitely have a leg up on me, I never could have been an xc or track runner in hs, I was way too slow and have no athletic talent.

Just train the best you can, and don't race so hard you crash or get injured or totally burned out. If you just let what happens on race day happen, and then go with the flow, you'll have the best results.

At age 39 I had been jogging/running for a few years and had just completed a year where I ran consistently about 5 days a week and logged about 2000 miles. Training pace was mostly in the 8:00 - 8:30 range. 1st 21-miler was just adding another 7-mile loop to the first two. Then for my first marathon I was afraid of "hitting the wall" so I ran comfortably at 8:00 pace or so for the first 20 miles. At the 20-mile aid station the guy handing me the cup of water said "Man, you look fresh." That just psyched me up... I said "I FEEL GREAT", and just took off. The adrenaline was pumping, and I started passing people. Not a big marathon, but I passed 219 people between 20 miles and the finish... at a pace of 6:30 per mile or better. What a rush. Finished under 3:20. Most enjoyable marathon ever.

A year and a half after that first marathon, I had stopped using training schedules for a couple months and had just been running for pure enjoyment, just to feel good. No big expectations for the marathon I was going to run... I didn't even make up my mind which one until the day before (I had registered for two, one on Saturday, one on Sunday.) I was late getting there and had to jog over a mile to get to the start on time. It wasn't until a few miles in that I realized I was having a good day, and might be able to achieve one of my long-time goals. Long story short - I ran a 2:57 that day, and was so psyched up to do a sub-3:00 at age 40 that I could only sleep 3 hours that night. I woke up at 2:30 AM, couldn't sleep... still psyched, got my gear, drove 180 miles, and ran the other marathon... somewhat slower at 3:41, but what the heck. Then drove 180 miles home to get some sleep.

Why do I mention this? Well...
1) If I had had a goal of breaking 3 hours that Saturday, I probably couldn't have done it,
2) If I had had a goal of running both marathons, I certainly couldn't have run that 2:57 PR,

But, I did have a long-term goal, however unrealistic it seemed, to maybe someday be able to run a sub 3 hour marathon. Maybe. Someday.

I didn't plan for all that on that particular weekend, but I just let things happen, and went along with the way it worked out.

I like Long Run Nick's suggestion: have a goal of running for the rest of your life. If you do that, all these other things will happen, in due time.

Gino

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posted Jul-13-2007 02:54 PM            

My goals are very elastic. After getting back to running for running's sake, I am enjoying it. The pride of finishing my first marathon will carry me a long way. After the pain subsides, I'll continue. I don't see any reason why I can't get better considering where I'm at today and how much (or how little) I have put into it up to this point. Most of all I have been disciplines (military background) about just getting up in the morning and running. Not for time or pace necessarily but just to get out there and run. I know I will improve simply by running more. There will be a plateau, but it's one that I set for myself!

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posted Jul-13-2007 04:29 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by martinjames:
I don't believe, by the way, that your max HR fell 17 bpm over time. Maybe a couple. Max HR is essentially fixed.

---

Strong disagreement here. The "rule of thumb" (which has wide variance) is that Max HR is 220 minus age.

For me, and for all my friends ( that measure heart rate ), max HR is fixed over a short period of time - but over years, steadily declines. It may not be "one beat per year", but it definitely declines.

For me (when in shape), and 8:00 min/mi pace corresponds to a heart rate of between 155 and 160. The problem is, when I was 25, that was only about 78% of max HR - and I could keep it up for a long time w/o waste buildup. Now, its 86% of max HR - and if I do a longish run at that pace, I'm whipped for days afterward. Eventually, when I'm 65, that WILL be my max.

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posted Jul-13-2007 04:34 PM            

I certainly don't think Max HR changes much in a few months; but declines slowly over a long period of years.

What's "movable" is the pace you can run at MAF or at varying heart rates - up to a point. Once you've got years of a strong aerobic base - it doesn't move much anymore.

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posted Jul-13-2007 04:42 PM            

bluelake

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posted Jul-13-2007 05:23 PM               

I am enjoying my low HR training and am logging more miles per week (55-60) than I have EVER run. For yrs 50 miles a week was it. Then I dropped to 5 days a week and 40-45 per week for 5-6+ years. It seems to be working. Nick

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posted Jul-13-2007 05:45 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by Long Run Nick:
I have come to the conclusion that most of us end up being an experiment of one.

---

Ain't that a fact!

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posted Jul-13-2007 06:17 PM               

quote:

---

Originally posted by catwoman73:
Hi everyone!

After reading through this thread, and reading all of the posted links, I've decided to give low HR training a try. I'm 34 years old and have only been running for one year. I ran my first HM in May, and am planning to run my second on Sept. 30th. During this past year, I've suffered from all sorts of aches and pains, and I've felt tired all the time. I do get sick frequently as well, and because I work in an intensive care unit, having a healthy immune system is of utmost importance. I want to be a healthy, life-long runner, and that is my biggest reason for giving this a try.

My question for you is- I understand the rationale for eating no carbs immediately before running, but I run first thing in the morning, and have ALWAYS eaten a small meal immediately before setting out on my run (yes- my stomach is made of iron!!!). I do this because I suffer from hypoglycemia, and always wake up absolutely famished! So- how should I approach eating now? Should I eat a couple of eggs before heading out? Or should I head out on an empty stomach, and start taking in small amounts of sports drink once I'm warmed up?

Any advice would be appreciated!

Thanx,
Pam

---

I always try to stay away from any recommendations when one
is glycemic, diabetic, or having some other related thing going on.
However, bluelake's response below is very interesting. I don't
really know what's safe and what isn't so I'd hate to comment
myself. There's no doubt that if having some eggs or similar
before you start and then carbohydrates several minutes into
the run would be consistent with the guidelines. Whatever it is,
don't do something that may endanger you!

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posted Jul-13-2007 06:23 PM               

quote:

---

Originally posted by litefoot:
So did you MAF marathoners set a specific target HR for you races (MAF+15, MAF+20, etc), or did you just go by feel and set a sustainable pace without strict adherence to any specific heart rate?

Also, when you first started running strictly at MAF pace in training, how long did it take you to peak and hence require adding speed work to continue making progress? Thanks.
Joel

[This message has been edited by litefoot (edited Jul-13-2007).]

---

On the first one I did on MAF training, I think I just found
a comfortably-challenging pace, noted the heart rate and
sustained it. Later on, I used my knowledge of my anaerobic
threshold to fine tune how fast I felt I could go without blowing
up (and it worked very well!) I've never added speed work
myself because my pace has never really leveled off (except
temporarily due to excessive racing, a long break, or whatever.)

However, I have recently formulated an opinion on when it's
best to add speed work! Just my opinion that many can easily
poke holes through. Certainly if your pace has been steadily
improving at MAF for a while and suddenly you've leveled off,
that's probably a good time. But, I'd say the prime time to
add it is when you have difficulty keeping your heart rate
up at MAF during your runs. It's a sign that you're getting too
comfortable with such a nice comfortable pace and that your
aerobic system is starting to beat out your power and leg
strength. I think speed work is just what the doctor ordered
at that point!

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posted Jul-13-2007 06:39 PM            

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posted Jul-13-2007 07:44 PM               

I think I'm going to take the next week's worth of runs to experiment a little bit, and see what works best for me nutritionally. I have 8 miles planned for tomorrow, and plan to try to run it with a very small, non-carb snack before hand. My next run, I'll try to go without eating, and see how that goes.

Jesse- don't worry- I would never do anything to endanger myself. Since I started running, I've always kept my cell phone handy, in case I crash and need my DH to come pick me up (I'm sure he'd appreciate that at 6:00 a.m. on a Saturday!!!). And I always carry a snack with me, just in case- though I've never had to use it! I've been dealing with this since my early teens, and always make dietary changes with great caution. The timing for this little experiment is actually quite good- I'm in the very early stages of training for my 2nd HM, so none of my runs at this point are terribly long.

Thanks for the great advice, everyone. I'll keep you posted!

Pam

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posted Jul-13-2007 09:08 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by catwoman73:
Hi everyone!

After reading through this thread, and reading all of the posted links, I've decided to give low HR training a try. I'm 34 years old and have only been running for one year. I ran my first HM in May, and am planning to run my second on Sept. 30th. During this past year, I've suffered from all sorts of aches and pains, and I've felt tired all the time. I do get sick frequently as well, and because I work in an intensive care unit, having a healthy immune system is of utmost importance. I want to be a healthy, life-long runner, and that is my biggest reason for giving this a try.

My question for you is- I understand the rationale for eating no carbs immediately before running, but I run first thing in the morning, and have ALWAYS eaten a small meal immediately before setting out on my run (yes- my stomach is made of iron!!!). I do this because I suffer from hypoglycemia, and always wake up absolutely famished! So- how should I approach eating now? Should I eat a couple of eggs before heading out? Or should I head out on an empty stomach, and start taking in small amounts of sports drink once I'm warmed up?

Any advice would be appreciated!

Thanx,
Pam

---

When you're running paces that keep you burning mostly fat, you won't have a big drop in blood sugar due to the running. You might find that with proper diet (low-glycemic, low crap, moderate healthy fat) and running in a prime fat-burning aerobic range, your condition might clear up as you become a fat-burning machine. Your insulin won't be overworking and your body will begin to balance. Experiment. Start with not eating before some low mileage runs to see how it goes.

Personally, I never eat closer than three hours before any run. Thus, any morning run is done on an empty stomach. I only drink water during a run. No carbs. I then eat within 20 minutes after for recovery. That will include some carbs, protein, and fat.

Good luck. Go slow with the changes. Gain confidència through small little stepinkees of healthation (truly in my own words). Belief in your health, act as if....

--Jimmy

MAF log
the man behind the curtain

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posted Jul-13-2007 09:09 PM            

I've actually used MAF-like training for quite a while; or thought I did. I always tried; but my main difference is that I didn't use a HRM all the time; and in adverse conditions probably let the heart rate go too high w/o realizing it.

Anyway... the highest monthly mileage total I had in 25 recorded years of running was 244 miles prior to this year. So far this year, I have a 258, 264, and 260 for the last 3 months and am on pace to top all of those this month.

There are 2 differences. First, when I found this board 3 months ago - I started using a HRM every day. I noticed that my average HR was generally 130; but I'd have stretches over 150 (which is over MAF) and not realize it. Then I'd feel tired the next day. Now, my average HR is still around 130 on my runs; but if I hit 145 - I slow down. I can much more easily come back for more. Second, I am doing full body training. I had imbalance injuries; which are minimized doing core training.

Just my two cents.

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posted Jul-13-2007 09:36 PM            

That was two dollar...thanks for the inspiration.

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posted Jul-14-2007 11:58 AM               

Weather:
Partially sunny.
Temp: 22 degrees C/ 72 degrees F
Winds: S 18mph
Rel. Humidity: 61%

The run:
Distance: 8 miles
Time: 1:28:28
Pace: 11:04min/mile (1st mile- 10:33. Slowed down after)
Target HR: 146
Avg HR: 141
Max HR: 152 (oops)- Had to walk several times to reduce my HR. Usually on hills, but sometimes on flats, more so when the sun was out and I was feeling hot.

Last time I did this exact route:
Temp: 63 degrees F
Time: 1:18:50
Pace 9:51min/mile
Avg. HR: 149
Max HR: 166

Does all this look fairly normal for someone starting out on low HR training??? I feel like I did OK. I was surprisingly not at all frustrated- I actually found it refreshing to have a HR based goal for this run, instead of a time goal. I look forward to seeing how much I change over the coming months.

BTW- as for the food thing- We were out of eggs this morning, so I just had a small piece of cheese before heading out- breakfast of champions! I had no trouble with my blood sugar, though I'm absolutely famished now!

Pam

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ME!

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posted Jul-14-2007 12:22 PM            

MAP is very comfortable. I went on a long walk/run yesterday and my MAP zone is 109-125 roughly. I felt very energized when I got back, almost euphoric and I could have continued for hours more, or so it felt like.

The day before, I did a MEP run/walk, with 129-139 zone for my heartrate and I was tired when I finished about an hour of exercise.

Big difference!

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posted Jul-14-2007 12:36 PM               

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posted Jul-14-2007 03:48 PM               

Also, my running route is up a long gradual hill which makes it very hard to maintain MAF. How much aerobic benefit/progress would I lose if I adjusted up to MAF+5? Thank you all. I really want to learn.

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posted Jul-14-2007 05:16 PM               

quote:

---

Originally posted by litefoot:
I know the formula for MAF is 180 - Age. For me, using the MHR firmula of 220 - Age, then MAF is 70-75% of MHR. Now, if I found, by testing, that my MHR was more than the rate determined by 220 - Age formula, would I then bump my MAF up to 70-75% of the tested MHR, or would I just stick with the 180 - Age number.

Also, my running route is up a long gradual hill which makes it very hard to maintain MAF. How much aerobic benefit/progress would I lose if I adjusted up to MAF+5? Thank you all. I really want to learn.

---

Max heart rate is not relevant if you are following Maffetone's
approach (180-age +/- n*5) unless you have a very *low*
max heart rate. If you have a very low max heart rate then
you should follow Hadd's advice (one of the links in the FAQ).

As for your second question - everyone is an experiment of
one - try and see. Generally speaking those with very poor
aerobic fitness need to be very strict to see the most benefit.
Those with pretty good aerobic fitness can get away with
going high quite a bit. It's one of the great oxymorons of
this approach.

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Low Heart Rate Training FAQ
My marathons and ultras
My races and reports

[This message has been edited by leitnerj (edited Jul-14-2007).]

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posted Jul-14-2007 06:02 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by leitnerj:
Max heart rate is not relevant if you are following Maffetone's
approach (180-age +/- n*5) unless you have a very *low*
max heart rate. If you have a very low max heart rate then
you should follow Hadd's advice (one of the links in the FAQ).

As for your second question - everyone is an experiment of
one - try and see. Generally speaking those with very poor
aerobic fitness need to be very strict to see the most benefit.
Those with pretty good aerobic fitness can get away with
going high quite a bit. It's one of the great oxymorons of
this approach.

---

Honestly, at first (last fall) when I was MAF'ing, I didn't really believe this, but now it makes total sense to me after comparing my max HR (give or take a few beats) and my wife's MHR. She falls in line with the 220-age fairly closely, while I'm not even close.

I estimate my MHR at ~206 (maybe a few beats higher) based off of a hard 5K where I hit 204. My wife's is ~188. Yet, when we are running races of an equal distance (longer than 5K), there is a much smaller range (certainly not 18 bpm!) between our average HR's for that race.

For example, in February, she ran a very hard half marathon and averaged 169 bpm. My avg. HR during a half marathon is probably 175. I have to estimate as I've only run one, and I didn't run that one as hard as I could have since it was my first. My recent marathons have been at 169 (very cool temps, and the same race as my wife's hard HM above) and 172 (at least 70 at finish).

So, while I don't have as much data as I would like (and of course it's still fairly subjective), it's clear that although my max HR is much higher than hers (I have averaged 199 for over a mile), when we start talking about averages during a race that covers a longer distance, we start to fall into a much more narrow range. (for us I would say 6 to 8 beats for a 10K or longer race, and probably even less for a HM or marathon.)

Not sure if this helps much, but essentially the anaerobic threshholds for most people are much closer in a range than max HR. (I think I got that right....)

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posted Jul-14-2007 06:19 PM               

Just another nutrition question for anyone out there- I walk to work. 3km in each direction, and work 4 days out of every 9. I walk at a good clip, and consider those walks to be part of my cross training. Do I need to avoid eating carbs before my walks as well as my runs? That would require some pretty serious dietary adjustments- I'm gonna need some time to figure out how to do it!

Pam

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