posted Oct-16-2007 03:13 PM               

quote:

---

Originally posted by jjwaverly42:
I'm putting together my training schedule all the way to Boston in April. In December, I'll be traveling for a week and it might be difficult to maintain a full week of running. I'm tempted to just rest for a week, but fear losing some fitness. Anyone know how many miles it takes to maintain aerobic fitness on a week off? What's your experience with this?

Here's my schedule up until the vacation....all these miles will be below MAF of 134, and mostly below or around MAF -5.

All wisdom welcome.
Rebuilding slowly.

--Jimmy

MAF log
profile

[This message has been edited by jjwaverly42 (edited Oct-16-2007).]

---

Hi Jimmy

I've been wondering about maintenance mileage for a while now. My marathon is 10/28 and I'd like to cut mileage back significantly in Nov-Dec before I start adding miles again in Jan.

My experience:
In late Aug of this year I was running about 50 mpw. I went on vacation and left on a Tuesday evening. The only run I managed that week was a 20 miler on Tuesday morning. The following Monday I tried to jump right back in with a 50+ week and noticed some additional fatigue. The runs Mon-Thur following the week off were more difficult. I managed 52 that week, but the first part of the week was tough. I didn't notice a big change in pace, just extra effort to finish the runs.

Curious if anyone else has maintenance mileage advice

Cory

IP: Logged

posted Oct-16-2007 06:16 PM               

quote:

---

Originally posted by martinjames:
Thank you, but I am so not smart enough to digest this. For whatever reason, I don't seem to be prone to bonking, so I'm not too worried about depletion (or course, now I'm going to blow up next time out). So it sounds like, on the margin, not much of a difference.

Intellectually, I was envisioning some threshold under which lactic acid doesn't accumulate and that it didn't matter if one was 1% or 10% or 25% under that threshold. I supposeI that's too simple and linear.

Since I understand "no guts no glory," I think that'll have to take the day. It's probably stupid, but I have to finish quickly to drive my kid to his soccer game in Fredericksburg, Virginia that afternoon. That's a good reason, right?

---

Ah, the issue is more likely that I didn't understand your question!
First, there's the fact that anaerobic threshold and lactate threshold
are two different quantities that generally occur at around the same
place. However, some literature uses them interchangeably. In
the MAF realm, anaerobic threshold (the point where RQ just equals 1,
100% carb used for fuel) is the more important quantity. It's important
because it identifies how much of your precious glycogen store you'll
be using. You're of course talking about lactic acid build-up and clearly
that's a concern, too, but I think it's more commonly a concern in shorter
races when you're going too fast and simply blow yourself up. No doubt,
it can happen in a marathon, too. Then there's the fact that lactic
acid is the byproduct from the use of carbohydrate for energy, so
clearly these quantities are related. Ok, that's a bunch of jibberish
you didn't really need, but if we use the AT definition that I mention
above, you don't want to be too close to it in a marathon, because
you will then run out of glycogen and things will get messy, no
matter what your lactic acid level.

I do agree with using constraints of where your kid has to be at
what time as a guideline for how fast you should be running.
Especially when it works.

------------------
MyRunningLog
MyStuff
Low Heart Rate Training FAQ
My marathons and ultras
My races and reports

IP: Logged

posted Oct-16-2007 07:20 PM            

To those who asked, my marathon PR is a 3:48 which is 3 minutes away from a BQ. The course PR is now 4:08. According to other races, I should have been able to hit a 3:40, but of course that would take good conditions and a good hydration plan. Hence the meh.

------------------
***********
My myspace
No Complaining
Low Heart Rate Training FAQ Because many have asked...
You have poopie pants.

IP: Logged

posted Oct-16-2007 07:39 PM            

IP: Logged

posted Oct-16-2007 08:02 PM               

quote:

---

Originally posted by Kevin M:
Hey guys. I started running again so I could shed some weight but now with MAF training I am thinking of racing again. Last serious race was in middle shcool (5:02 mile thank you very much)..now 38 and running avg 11.36mm with MAF @ 142 after 10wks of starting back and down 21lbs.
What I would like to know is once I finish approximately 6mo of base building I hope to be around 9.5mm to 10mm MAF. I am shooting for a 10k race in March just as a goal. I am curious to know how much you guys raise your heart rates for racing? I have seen charts that convert MAF times to race times but just curious what hr's those times correlate to.
Thanks for all info that you guys post it has really motivated me to run again. Actually, now that I think about it, I am cursing you because this thread has caused me to be infected with the running virus again!! Thanks alot!!!!!!!!!!

---

Congrats on your found-again infection! Typical training HR ~ 140.
All-out 2 mile HR = 180+. All-out 10k HR ~ 179. All-out marathon
HR ~172.

------------------
MyRunningLog
MyStuff
Low Heart Rate Training FAQ
My marathons and ultras
My races and reports

IP: Logged

posted Oct-17-2007 08:04 AM            

For races, since I've only had a HRM for this summer. My AHR for races from 4k-10k have been in the 174-176 range. My MHR I have seen in a race is 185. I ran a HM but my monitor was left in the car. My best race this year is a 5k in 20:32. I've had some stinkers though.

I wish I had a HRM from last year when I was in much better shape to have some data points to compare too.

quote:

---

Originally posted by Kevin M:
Hey guys. I started running again so I could shed some weight but now with MAF training I am thinking of racing again. Last serious race was in middle shcool (5:02 mile thank you very much)..now 38 and running avg 11.36mm with MAF @ 142 after 10wks of starting back and down 21lbs.
What I would like to know is once I finish approximately 6mo of base building I hope to be around 9.5mm to 10mm MAF. I am shooting for a 10k race in March just as a goal. I am curious to know how much you guys raise your heart rates for racing? I have seen charts that convert MAF times to race times but just curious what hr's those times correlate to.
Thanks for all info that you guys post it has really motivated me to run again. Actually, now that I think about it, I am cursing you because this thread has caused me to be infected with the running virus again!! Thanks alot!!!!!!!!!!

---

IP: Logged

posted Oct-17-2007 10:33 AM            

My question is I have found a pace where my HR ranges from 124-129. This pace feels great. I have extended my long run to five miles with no problems with energy to go at the end. I am now working on extending the mid week runs. I will run some races, but I am not interested in setting a PR every race or trying to get as fast as I can. I would just like to run 25-30 miles a week with no injuries and keep that going

Does this lower HR help or hurt any forward progress in aerobic conditioning?

------------------
"One foot in front of the other"
ME

IP: Logged

posted Oct-17-2007 12:48 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by Kevin M:
Hey guys. I started running again so I could shed some weight but now with MAF training I am thinking of racing again. Last serious race was in middle shcool (5:02 mile thank you very much)..now 38 and running avg 11.36mm with MAF @ 142 after 10wks of starting back and down 21lbs.
What I would like to know is once I finish approximately 6mo of base building I hope to be around 9.5mm to 10mm MAF. I am shooting for a 10k race in March just as a goal. I am curious to know how much you guys raise your heart rates for racing? I have seen charts that convert MAF times to race times but just curious what hr's those times correlate to.
Thanks for all info that you guys post it has really motivated me to run again. Actually, now that I think about it, I am cursing you because this thread has caused me to be infected with the running virus again!! Thanks alot!!!!!!!!!!

---

My MAF is 144, most training runs are 120 to 145.

Max HR = ~206.

5K HR = 195
10K HR = Dunno, I would say around 188.
HM in August = 181
FM on Oct 7th (hot day in the Twin Cities) = 179

I believe I could have run the HM a bit harder. I also believe if I had pushed any harder during the marathon that I would have blown up, which I thankfully did not.

IP: Logged

posted Oct-17-2007 12:55 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by Fatdude:
I have been enjoying MAF training. My MAF window as calculated is 135-141.

My question is I have found a pace where my HR ranges from 124-129. This pace feels great. I have extended my long run to five miles with no problems with energy to go at the end. I am now working on extending the mid week runs. I will run some races, but I am not interested in setting a PR every race or trying to get as fast as I can. I would just like to run 25-30 miles a week with no injuries and keep that going

Does this lower HR help or hurt any forward progress in aerobic conditioning?

---

I say go for it. I run up to 30 mpw (sometimes even more) with my wife and have done this for 13 of the 16 months I've been running.

Her MAF pace puts me at 120-126. My MAF is 144. I have continued to improve. For me, I believe running quite a few easy miles with her has helped me stay relatively healthy and able to introduce speedwork as well.

IP: Logged

posted Oct-17-2007 07:31 PM               

quote:

---

Originally posted by leitnerj:
My recovery, I believe, comes from a reasonably high amount of
running mileage, all at low HR, and consistent cycling and swimming.
Just 3 years ago, running a marathon for me meant that I shouldn't
plan any outdoor activities for at least a few weeks. I think when I
started incorporating back to back 20 milers, my recovery improved
dramatically (I'm not suggestion everyone do this, but it turned out
to be a great prep for races of 50 miles and beyond). If you look
through my log at my races and training
between about mid February and April, you'll see where the speed
of my recovery absolutely amazed me, especially given where I
was not that long before. Most would have told me not to run
several marathons in the week approaching a tough 50k race, but
I figured what the heck. I did get a 15 minute PR in that race in
much tougher and muddier conditions than in the year before. Most
would have told me not to run that 50k race the week before my
second try at a 100 miler. They certainly would have told me not
to run a 20 miler the day after that 50k race, now 6 days before
the 100 miler. I finished the 100 miler 4 hours faster than my
absolute dream time, and picked up about a 20 minute 50 mile
PR in the first half. I thought for sure I wouldn't be able to run
the Boston marathon 2 weeks after the 100 miler. I felt pretty
good a couple days after the 100, so I decided I would run Boston
"easy." I basically resumed normal training mileage by the end
of that week and decided to push it a bit in Boston. Got a nice
PR! I can keep going through my next few races, but the point
is made. Something's working, at least as far as my objectives go.
I'd like to share it and see if it can work this well for others. It
does take time, but in the grand scheme of things, a year or
two is not much time for dramatic changes.

---

Leitnerj,

Do you pay close attention to what you eat? I'm mostly interested in knowing what, and how soon you eat after your workouts, but I am curious about your diet in general. Also, do you use any supplements to help you recover?

IP: Logged

posted Oct-17-2007 07:48 PM               

quote:

---

Originally posted by bdags:
Leitnerj,

Do you pay close attention to what you eat? I'm mostly interested in knowing what, and how soon you eat after your workouts, but I am curious about your diet in general. Also, do you use any supplements to help you recover?

---

I don't pay close attention to what I eat, but I avoid trans fats
as much as possible. The only supplement I take for recovery
is chocolate milk. And then chocolate, of course.

------------------
MyRunningLog
MyStuff
Low Heart Rate Training FAQ
My marathons and ultras
My races and reports

IP: Logged

posted Oct-17-2007 09:34 PM            

during run: nada & water & love

post-run (within 20-30 minutes): bowl of bananas, raisins, shredded wheat, cheerios, one cup of cooked egg whites & love

If you try this, be careful of the love, it can sometimes be painful.

--Jimmy

MAF log
profile

IP: Logged

posted Oct-17-2007 10:44 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by leitnerj:
... The only supplement I take for recovery
is chocolate milk. And then chocolate, of course.

---

Do you have a special recipe for the chocolate milk? I make my own and just wondered if others do too.

IP: Logged

posted Oct-17-2007 11:03 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by slowgino:
Do you have a special recipe for the chocolate milk? I make my own and just wondered if others do too.

---

Guys can't make their own milk.

IP: Logged

posted Oct-18-2007 10:52 AM               

Just a little update on my shin pain. I took yesterday off and was pain-free this morning. So I decided to go out and try 6 miles (down from the original 9 miles I had planned). I felt OK through most of the run, with some very minor discomfort. I think if I'm really conservative with my mileage and pace between now and my HM on Nov. 4th, I should be OK for the race. I plan to take a week off afterwards (the original plan was 3 days) to let the shin and calf muscles recover completely, and then ease myself back in, VERY slowly. My next race is a 30k, which isn't until March 30th, so I should have lots of time to sort this out.

Thanks for your help, Jimmy- I think the stretches you suggested are helping. I'll keep it up, and see how things go.

Pam

------------------
ME!

IP: Logged

posted Oct-18-2007 06:16 PM               

quote:

---

Originally posted by slowgino:
Do you have a special recipe for the chocolate milk? I make my own and just wondered if others do too.

---

Nah - too much trouble. And, actually, pre-made low-fat chocolate
milk costs 50 cents more per gallon here than regular milk, and I
really like it, so it's actually a better deal and less work!
I drink so much of it that I wouldn't be able to deal with making it
anyway. I go through probably 3 gallons a week.

------------------
MyRunningLog
MyStuff
Low Heart Rate Training FAQ
My marathons and ultras
My races and reports

IP: Logged

posted Oct-19-2007 12:52 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by jjwaverly42:
You can do this program staying around MAF, but it is almost always an exercise in slowing down from mile to mile. According to Training For endurance, you'll basically be doing an MAF test on every run. Maffetone suggests a zone of MAF -10 to MAF (if your MAF is 140, then the zone is 130-140). warming up to the MAF-10 after 15-30 minutes. Then maintain that pace, letting your HR drift up over time. This will still be an exercise in slowing down when you first begin, but it won't be as bad as if you try to stay on the exact MAF number. Everyone does it a little different, but that's the idea.

---

What happens to me on my long runs is a little different. My MAF HR is 146. I run a short warm-up to the low 130s, then start at a comfortable pace. My HR stays in the 130s for the first mile or two, then starts climbing until by about the 4th, I have to slow down by 30-45 seconds/mile to maintain my HR below MAF. Then after about 5 or 6 miles, my HR starts to drop, until I'm back down to my original pace while keeping HR in the 142-144 range for the rest of the run (about 10 to 12 miles total currently).

I suspect this may be because at a certain point in my run, I may be transitioning from a 3-3 breathing pattern to 2-2, and as my lungs are getting more air, my muscles are getting more oxygen at a lower HR.

IP: Logged

posted Oct-19-2007 02:42 PM               

IP: Logged

posted Oct-19-2007 04:51 PM            

My wife is getting over the flu (slight fever, very achy, headache) and has a marathon planned for Sunday. I am fairly certain it is the flu because our daughter has the flu (but has the child-type symptoms where it is affecting her stomach the most). My wife's symptoms peaked on Tueesday/Wednesday and she is feeling better yesterday/today. She ran some last night and her heart rate was much higher than usual, but she was also taking some medicine that raises the heart rate.

She is going back and forth on whether or not to run Sunday. She is going to jog a few miles tomorrow morning while non-medicated and see what her heart rate does.

My question is, have any of you (or people you know) ever come back from an illness the week before a marathon and still performed well? Any experience/opinions anyone has would be helpful.

IP: Logged

posted Oct-19-2007 05:58 PM               

quote:

---

Originally posted by Ace8:
This question is off-topic for this forum, but I trust people's judgement in here.

My wife is getting over the flu (slight fever, very achy, headache) and has a marathon planned for Sunday. I am fairly certain it is the flu because our daughter has the flu (but has the child-type symptoms where it is affecting her stomach the most). My wife's symptoms peaked on Tueesday/Wednesday and she is feeling better yesterday/today. She ran some last night and her heart rate was much higher than usual, but she was also taking some medicine that raises the heart rate.

She is going back and forth on whether or not to run Sunday. She is going to jog a few miles tomorrow morning while non-medicated and see what her heart rate does.

My question is, have any of you (or people you know) ever come back from an illness the week before a marathon and still performed well? Any experience/opinions anyone has would be helpful.

---

I can't say it's the case for me, but I know that it's quite common
for people to get sick during the taper period and generally they've
bounced back just fine for the marathon. It's not worth losing
sleep over, in either case!

------------------
MyRunningLog
MyStuff
Low Heart Rate Training FAQ
My marathons and ultras
My races and reports

IP: Logged

posted Oct-20-2007 06:57 AM               

------------------
Why just run - orienteering is much more fun!

IP: Logged

posted Oct-20-2007 07:27 AM               

quote:

---

Originally posted by Gregolowe:
Well, I used my FR305 for the first time today on my lunch break. Very interesting. I found out that I run at about an 8:30-9:00 pace. I thought I was jogging at about a 11-12 minute pace. I hit 6:00/mile going down hill, and I was just coasting. No wonder I can't keep my hr from jumping over MAF (which is not 141 thanks to my birthday on the 1st). Also, it seems that the communication between my chest strap and the unit may be delayed as it seemed to lag behind what I was perceiving physiologically. My timex seemed to give almost instantaneous feedback. With the FR305, by the time my alert went off for my HR being too high ( I set it to sound at 136, MAF-5 so I could slow down ) I was already at 139 or so, invariably sending me a few beats over MAF. Easy enough to fix. I'll just have to set my alarm lower. Also, the GPS has a little lag to it as my pace would take a little bit of time to pick up from walking to running, maybe 20-30 paces or so. I'm not complaining, just making observations. Oh, the motionbased seems to have problems with MAC. Bummer. Overall, it'll be cool to track my mileage and pace in the woods now without having to guess. I customized the display too to show the HR more prominently as the original display in the corner was just way too tiny.

---

If you can live without using Motionbased, there are other tools for Mac. One such tool could be the one I'm developing (it's free!), called TrackRunner

------------------
Why just run - orienteering is much more fun!

IP: Logged

posted Oct-20-2007 08:35 AM               

quote:

---

Originally posted by Lazze:
This has probably been covered several times already, but it's a pretty long thread to read, so I hope you'll bear with me.
I'm pretty new to this type of training (been doing it for a week now) so it's much too early to tell if it's working for me or not. I've been looking at Mark Allens adjustments for the MAF-value, and according to him, I qualify for a 5bpm "bonus" for having trained hard for several years. I have however chosen not to use this "bonus" as it seemed almost too easy to stay below the MAF-value. Will I benefit more from using the lower value, or am I just making it harder for myself?

---

My opinion is when in doubt, always go lower. Hadd uses an analogy of squeezing the toothpaste all the way from the bottom of the tube. Starting low allows you to capture more of your aerobic capacity, according to the analogy.

IP: Logged

posted Oct-20-2007 09:48 AM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by Lazze:
This has probably been covered several times already, but it's a pretty long thread to read, so I hope you'll bear with me.
I'm pretty new to this type of training (been doing it for a week now) so it's much too early to tell if it's working for me or not. I've been looking at Mark Allens adjustments for the MAF-value, and according to him, I qualify for a 5bpm "bonus" for having trained hard for several years. I have however chosen not to use this "bonus" as it seemed almost too easy to stay below the MAF-value. Will I benefit more from using the lower value, or am I just making it harder for myself?

---

You'll benefit just using 180-age without the bonus. You'll benefit in the zone 180-age minus 10-15 beats

e.g. 180-40= 140

During the base-building phase (or PATIENCE phase as Mark Allen calls it), a zone of 130-140, or 125-140 works well. I generally use the 15 beat spread, running a pace that gets me to the top of the zone by the end of the run Unless I'm doing aerobic intervals, aerobic hill repeats, or MAF test. When I'm doing those I'll hug the top of the zone the whole time.

The main purpose of the MAF number is to make sure you aren't switching to carbohydrate burning, and that you are using fat as fuel. Thus (I always feel like an ass when using THUS),
not taking the "bonus" is not a bad idea.

The other purpose of the MAF is about stress management. It helps to make sure you aren't overstressing the body while training, guarding against sickness and injury. Getting there in one piece so-to-speak.
That's why Maffetone has a subtraction of 5 beats for having been injured in the past year. It's not so much that you'll be switching over to carbs if you go over the MAF-5, it's that he's making sure you don't stress the body and re-injure yourself.

I do believe Mark Allen himself (and Jesse our resident aerobogod) just used 180-age with no bonus. Also, after his initial rebuild, he would do the MAF base-building period for 12 weeks at the beginning of each season (his Patience phase), then move into a interval and fartlek speedwork. He and Maffetone recommend that the speedwork (anaerobic) phase be 4-8 weeks before the goal race or racing season, depending on what you can handle. All other runs be under MAF.

I currently use MAF-5 for having been injured in the past year. On occasion, I'll have a mile that goes a little over due to poor attention skills, but never over MAF (180-age). There ya go. Good luck. Be PATIENT, it's always slow at first. If you need to whine about it at anytime, you can post your whining here like so many do, and we'll all write calming, gentle words to make you feel better.

I wish you the best. Keep going!

--Jimmy

MAF log
profile

IP: Logged

posted Oct-20-2007 10:33 AM               

quote:

---

Originally posted by jjwaverly42:
The main purpose of the MAF number is to make sure you aren't switching to carbohydrate burning, and that you are using fat as fuel. Thus (I always feel like an ass when using THUS),
not taking the "bonus" is not a bad idea.

---

Thanks. That's pretty much the impression I got from reading Mark Allens article. The discussion on a danish board (which brought my attention to this approach) is going in another direction though. The posters there are more or less trying to convince themselves to using a higher value by using their own modified or self-invented formulas. None of them have been doing it for more than a couple of weeks though, so I hardly regards them as experts

My approach, so far, is to go MAF-20 for the first kilometer, MAF-10 for the next (as a warm-.up period) and then stay below MAF for the rest of the run, usually around MAF-5. It's still a bit awkward running that slow, but not more so than I'm still able to run uphills keeping my heart rate below MAF.

IP: Logged