posted Oct-13-2007 10:01 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by leitnerj:
God forbid, I'd probably have to do speedwork to get close to that!

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or a taper!

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posted Oct-13-2007 10:17 PM               

quote:

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Originally posted by PB2:
Originally posted by jjwaverly42:
Great PR (s), Jesse. I think you have a 2:59 in you for sure. Keep going!
--Jimmy

or a taper!

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It's funny you say that because I just had this discussion with someone
else that's always telling me to taper. I explained that the marathon is
just a box to check before the real races, more of a means, not the end.
Further, when you do absolutely no hard workouts and you've been
sustaining the same training volume for a long time, there really is very
little to taper from. In my old training habits, I used to constantly feel
the effects of training, all day every day. I was creaky and crackly and
I basically walked funny. Now I have none of that. This is one thing
that will likely get disagreement from virtually everyone, but I simply
don't think a taper matters much at all if you're not pushing the boundaries
on intensity and pretty much every run is a recovery run of sorts.

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posted Oct-13-2007 10:19 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by PB2:
Originally posted by jjwaverly42:
Great PR (s), Jesse. I think you have a 2:59 in you for sure. Keep going!
--Jimmy

or a taper!

---

Plus, it's 2 seconds per mile per pound, if he left the Garmin (11 pounds) at home, he'd gain all he needs.

[This message has been edited by jjwaverly42 (edited Oct-13-2007).]

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posted Oct-13-2007 10:24 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by leitnerj:
It's funny you say that because I just had this discussion with someone
else that's always telling me to taper. I explained that the marathon is
just a box to check before the real races, more of a means, not the end.
Further, when you do absolutely no hard workouts and you've been
sustaining the same training volume for a long time, there really is very
little to taper from. In my old training habits, I used to constantly feel
the effects of training, all day every day. I was creaky and crackly and
I basically walked funny. Now I have none of that. This is one thing
that will likely get disagreement from virtually everyone, but I simply
don't think a taper matters much at all if you're not pushing the boundaries
on intensity and pretty much every run is a recovery run of sorts.

---

If you tapered, you'd have a mental breakdown.
--Jimmy

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posted Oct-13-2007 10:25 PM               

quote:

---

Originally posted by jjwaverly42:
Plus, it's 2 seconds per mile per pound, if he left the Garmin (11 pounds) at home, he'd gain all he needs.

[This message has been edited by jjwaverly42 (edited Oct-13-2007).]

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Not only that, but if it were of utmost importance, I would
eat less and quit weightlifting and get rid of my 30 lbs of
excess muscle mass.

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posted Oct-13-2007 10:27 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by leitnerj:
Not only that, but if it were of utmost importance, I would
eat less and quit weightlifting and get rid of my 30 lbs of
excess muscle mass.

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That's a veiled comment on my spare tire, isn't it!

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posted Oct-13-2007 10:33 PM               

quote:

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Originally posted by jjwaverly42:
That's a veiled comment on my spare tire, isn't it!

---

It was an underhanded stab at the underbelly of your existence.
If spare tire is just a euphemism for that, then indeed that's
what it was.

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posted Oct-13-2007 10:45 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by leitnerj:
It was an underhanded stab at the underbelly of your existence.
If spare tire is just a euphemism for that, then indeed that's
what it was.

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I only have an overbelly, also known as a jellybelly, or in my case a fromhellybelly.

--JImmy

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posted Oct-14-2007 11:04 AM            

"Tapering is a period of diminished training. It enables your body to rest and recover from the training that hopefully has been successful. Even though you are working out much less, this period of reduced activity should not take away from your race performance, but rather enhance it by assuring you are well rested for race day. Remember, this taper period will enhance your performance.
The routines I have used for years, which are supported by the published research of others, indicate that at least two weeks — and sometimes as much as three or four weeks — of tapering is optimal for long events like a marathon, a cycling tour or an Ironman. Even for shorter events, a few days of tapering can make a significant difference in performance.
During the taper period, reduce your training by 50 to 80 percent, with less training as you get closer to race day. In addition, avoid all anaerobic training during the taper period. Downhill runs or spinning on your bike can help the nervous system maintain its turnover capability.
The scientific literature shows that during a taper period your muscle strength actually increases. In addition, no reduction in VO2 max or MAF occurs.
In a study using runners, a 60 percent reduction in training for 15 to 21 days showed no loss in either endurance or VO2 max. Another benefit of tapering is that resting significantly improves leg power; improved arm strength in swimmers has also been noted in studies. Other benefits include lower lactate levels once competition begins. Tapering must be differentiated from detraining, which is the complete cessation of working out. With no training, endurance is adversely affected after only two weeks."
From Training for Endurance © 2000 Philip Maffetone

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posted Oct-14-2007 11:21 AM               

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posted Oct-14-2007 01:03 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by leitnerj:
Just hit a new marathon PR today in 3:09:42 on a pretty tough
course. Also during the race, I PRed in 10k, 10 mile, and half
marathon distances along the way! Report is in run and race
reports.

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Congratulations! I went to look at you report, but they've all disappeared!? Although your loathe to do it, you might try some speedwork for one of these marathons. Just a little (like 4 or 5 weeks worth 2-7 weeks out) would go a long way for you I think.

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posted Oct-14-2007 01:18 PM               

quote:

---

Originally posted by leitnerj:
Just hit a new marathon PR today in 3:09:42 on a pretty tough
course. Also during the race, I PRed in 10k, 10 mile, and half
marathon distances along the way! Report is in run and race
reports.

---

Great race, congratulations!

Now you can get all kinds of suggestions on breaking 3-hours.

I understand your comments about tapering. I'll throw in this: a taper can decrease RQ (probably the reason for the faster MAF tests I've seen). All kinds of other reasons to taper too.

I could hear your argument against gregw's suggestion about speed work. You do those downhill MAF workouts (or 'aerobic intervals' as Maffetone calls them) on a regular basis. I would agree.

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posted Oct-14-2007 02:21 PM               

quote:

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Originally posted by DavidD:

Great race, congratulations!

Now you can get all kinds of suggestions on breaking 3-hours.

I understand your comments about tapering. I'll throw in this: a taper can decrease RQ (probably the reason for the faster MAF tests I've seen). All kinds of other reasons to taper too.

I could hear your argument against gregw's suggestion about speed work. You do those downhill MAF workouts (or 'aerobic intervals' as Maffetone calls them) on a regular basis. I would agree.

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Any time I've cut back for a week, for one reason or another
(generally due to business travel and vacations), I definitely
lose some of my low HR pace, so I think my RQ actually increases
at the low HRs! Nothing scientific, mind you, just my obscure
observation.

No doubt, I won't be doing any traditional speed work any time soon.
I'd have to have something go in the wrong direction first. I believe
the downhill spurts are sufficient, along with regular racing. Nothing
like a few 26.2 mile tempo runs.

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posted Oct-14-2007 03:06 PM               

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posted Oct-14-2007 03:19 PM               

quote:

---

Originally posted by gregw:
Congratulations! I went to look at you report, but they've all disappeared!? Although your loathe to do it, you might try some speedwork for one of these marathons. Just a little (like 4 or 5 weeks worth 2-7 weeks out) would go a long way for you I think.

---

Doubt it, but could be. What's with disappearing posts? Something
with the active transition, I guess. In either case, I always have
my race reports in the "races and reports" link below.

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posted Oct-14-2007 03:33 PM            

--Jimmy

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posted Oct-14-2007 04:49 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by leitnerj:
Haha, I understand the theories and I contend that it's
all relative. I took off from running two days before the
marathon, then the day before I ran for 45 minutes instead
my usual hour on the treadmill. Man did I feel fresh, but
not diminished as I have after long tapers.

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I just read an article in Runners World ("the magazine that rehashes the same info over and over, yet makes it seem fresh, like a fresh donut at the new coffee shop on the corner") that about some elites who are cutting the amount of tapering down to keep the fresh feeling. They still taper for two weeks or so, but don't cut the miles so much. Some of them felt like crap when they tapered too much. Or even would get colds. It could be psychological. but whatever the reason some find it helpful to taper less.

(just sipped my coffee--yuck--always wait 30 minutes and at least 3 cookies after using mouthwash before sipping coffee)

When you look back at Bill Rodgers and Joan Benoit Samuelson, they were like you Jesse, barely a taper if any, and yet they excelled to put it lightly. Would either of them perhaps set a world record using modern ideas like tapering? Who knows. One thing is for sure they were runners from the inside out, tough and prodigious in their volume. They created and lived their own running lifestyle, as you have, Jesse. You're doing your own thing, accomplishing some incredible feats of endurance, running lots of races, and you seem to be having a blast. Perhaps you could go out and get a 2:59 on your current fitness with a long taper, maybe not. Focusing on just one race. The question I think is "do you want to give up your lifestyle?" to obtain a certain time. I think someday you'll break the 3:00 barrier just doing what you are doing. When I commented that you are a beginner, I meant it. We both are. 4 years is a beginner. 10 years is not. You have only scratched the surface of your potential.

Personally, I've always tapered because an article told me to do so. Now that I've read an article that suggest cutting a little less, I'll try that. I often feel like crap during a taper, and wonder if I'm short-changing my quality of life during that time, and maybe even the best possible time come race day.

Keep going!

--Jimmy

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posted Oct-14-2007 04:59 PM               

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posted Oct-14-2007 09:13 PM               

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posted Oct-14-2007 09:19 PM               

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posted Oct-15-2007 04:40 AM               

quote:

---

Originally posted by jjwaverly42:
When you look back at Bill Rodgers and Joan Benoit Samuelson, they were like you Jesse, barely a taper if any, and yet they excelled to put it lightly.

---

I was at a clinic once where Rodgers stated that he ran very poorly if he cut his mileage back for more than 3 days before a marathon.

Jesse, you'll get that sub-3, just keep doing what you're doing. Ordinarily I wouldn't advise anyone to train the way you do, but my overriding training principle is, " If it ain't broke, don't fix it. " Especially if you enjoy what you're doing. Good luck to you.

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posted Oct-15-2007 05:24 AM               

quote:

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Originally posted by DanMoriarity:
I was at a clinic once where Rodgers stated that he ran very poorly if he cut his mileage back for more than 3 days before a marathon.

Jesse, you'll get that sub-3, just keep doing what you're doing. Ordinarily I wouldn't advise anyone to train the way you do, but my overriding training principle is, " If it ain't broke, don't fix it. " Especially if you enjoy what you're doing. Good luck to you.

---

Thanks- no doubt, we're on the same page! I wouldn't recommend
anyone to train just the way I do, that's for sure. Unless of course
they wanted to do all the exact same stuff that I do!

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posted Oct-15-2007 07:37 AM               

I've been running for almost a year and have been MAF training (half-assed) since January. My MAF HR is 142. I've come to realize after pouring through this and the two archived threads, that I haven't been doing it right. Up until a couple of weeks ago, I would average around 10 min/mile after a warm-up mile or two. The problem is that I was trying to get close to my MAF HR too soon. My HR was drifting far too often. I though I was doing fine, since my avg HR would be 139-141 over most runs. Unfortunately, I spent a lot of trying to get my HR back under 142. It seems that I haven't really been "maffetone training." As a result, I've had a difficult time breaking the 25 mile/ wk barrier. I haven't been injured...just aches & pains here and there that have caused me to be hesitant to increase my milage.

On my last three runs I started very slow (12-13 min/mile). After a mile or two, I picked up the pace a little. Once warmed up, I'm running 11-12 minute miles. After my 7 miler this morning my avg HR was 134...about 5-7 beats lower than I'm used to. Late in the run, my HR will climb into the upper 130s and sometimes touch 141-142 and come back down a bit. This is a very slow pace, but I'm convinced that this is the way to go. My goal is to increase my milage to 50-60 miles/wk over the winter. Hopefully this slower pace will allow me to do that.

I'll post when I start to see significant progress. Thanks to everyone who contributes to this thread.

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posted Oct-15-2007 09:24 AM               

quote:

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Originally posted by leitnerj:
Sounds good, Greg - I hope you see some appreciable success.
And you'll always want to *lower* your RQ - no need to raise it!
You want to burn more fat, less carb.

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Hah! Yeah, I'm going to do some reading too so I can be more informed when I try and talk about this as I really don't understand the terminology. I understand the concepts, but I am obviously not informed enough on the proper terminology to be able to disucss it well.

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posted Oct-15-2007 09:59 AM            

quote:

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Originally posted by bdags:
Starting over again....

I've been running for almost a year and have been MAF training (half-assed) since January. My MAF HR is 142. I've come to realize after pouring through this and the two archived threads, that I haven't been doing it right. Up until a couple of weeks ago, I would average around 10 min/mile after a warm-up mile or two. The problem is that I was trying to get close to my MAF HR too soon. My HR was drifting far too often. I though I was doing fine, since my avg HR would be 139-141 over most runs. Unfortunately, I spent a lot of trying to get my HR back under 142. It seems that I haven't really been "maffetone training." As a result, I've had a difficult time breaking the 25 mile/ wk barrier. I haven't been injured...just aches & pains here and there that have caused me to be hesitant to increase my milage.

On my last three runs I started very slow (12-13 min/mile). After a mile or two, I picked up the pace a little. Once warmed up, I'm running 11-12 minute miles. After my 7 miler this morning my avg HR was 134...about 5-7 beats lower than I'm used to. Late in the run, my HR will climb into the upper 130s and sometimes touch 141-142 and come back down a bit. This is a very slow pace, but I'm convinced that this is the way to go. My goal is to increase my milage to 50-60 miles/wk over the winter. Hopefully this slower pace will allow me to do that.

I'll post when I start to see significant progress. Thanks to everyone who contributes to this thread.

---

When I'm not doing an aerobic interval run or an MAF test, I try to construct every run where I'm getting to the top of the range in the last mile or two. My goal is to have an even pace for as long as possible. That usually gets easier to do as time goes by. I always use the first mile or so as warm-up. Here's an example:

12:16 108
11:13 117
11:10 118
11:54 122 (all uphill)
9:49 126 (back down)
11:10 123
10:53 125
11:07 128
11:04 129
11:26 130

average pace after warm-up: 11:06

As you can see, it was a fairly even pace with a touch of slowing in the last mile, mainly due to the upgrade in that last mile. I'll try to do that same HR map for each ten miler. Of course, it is adjusted for less miles and real long runs, still trying to maintain an even pace that brings me to the top of the zone by the last few miles. If all goes well, I'll start to get faster in the last miles using the same HR map more often as I did in this run.

Keep going!

--Jimmy

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