posted Oct-10-2007 05:43 AM               

quote:

---

Originally posted by bdags:
leitnerj,

I just looked at your running log. Are you training for an Ironman??

That's a lot of volume. I got tired just looking at it.....

---

I get in whatever I can, whenever I can. I just try to generally
keep fit for any race that comes along that looks interesting. Since
I had the day off
on Monday, I went for a longer than usual bike ride. I don't usually
have time for such things.

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posted Oct-10-2007 06:38 AM               

quote:

---

Originally posted by leitnerj:
I get in whatever I can, whenever I can. I just try to generally
keep fit for any race that comes along that looks interesting. Since
I had the day off
on Monday, I went for a longer than usual bike ride. I don't usually
have time for such things.

---

That's great! I'm amazed that you can recover that quick from such a workout. I noticed that you are often running the day after a marathon. I'm still recovering from my 10 mile race on Sunday. I should be fine by tomorrow, but it seems that I need a minimum of 3 days off.

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posted Oct-10-2007 10:30 AM               

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posted Oct-10-2007 10:36 AM            

quote:

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Originally posted by Gregolowe:
This question is inspired by my laziness. I just got my Forerunner 305 in the mail yesterday. Some pages ago there was discussion about software that was better to use than that provided with the Forerunner. Could somebody enlighten me as to what that is so I don't have to dig? Thank you in advance.

---

SportsTracks

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posted Oct-10-2007 10:39 AM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by Gregolowe:
This question is inspired by my laziness. I just got my Forerunner 305 in the mail yesterday. Some pages ago there was discussion about software that was better to use than that provided with the Forerunner. Could somebody enlighten me as to what that is so I don't have to dig? Thank you in advance.

---

One I know is http://www.motionbased.com

There are others, but you I believe you have to pay to use. I just use the Forerunner software. It gives me the info I need. Pace, distance, and ave HR. I don't need graphs and the such. I find the map drawing unnecessary, but fun, at this point.

Have fun with the Garmin. I like mine. I feel like Dick Tracey.

--Jimmy
MAF log

profile

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posted Oct-10-2007 10:53 AM               

You'll love the new toy! As an ultra guy I'm guessing you'll want to look at elevation data at some point. In my experience Motionbased is the best for elevation. If you decide to use it, during your account set up there is a box that can be checked which will do elevation correction. It takes the GPS points from the FR305 and corrects the elevation data. The difference is dramatic, the FR305 is horrible for elevation.

I'd tell you exactly where it is but Motionbased seems to be down right now.

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posted Oct-10-2007 02:33 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by leitnerj:
... I don't believe that you need to hit > 30
minutes to hit fat burning mode - unless you were taking in carbs
before the activity. Sounds like a wive's tale. DavidD may be
able to respond to that one. Heart rates do funny things.

---

Well, I'll chime in here with a little bit of my experience and that of a few others I've talked to.

When I first started running (over 35 years ago) I found that if I ran less than 30 minutes I would still be hungry afterward at breakfast. If I ran over about 35 minutes or so, then I would not be hungry at breakfast, and my appetite would be decreased at lunch too, depending on the length of the run.

I found that the longer the run, the longer it would take me to get hungry afterward. E.g. even though I drank both water and sport drink (ERG) on my first 40-mile training run, I felt no hunger afterward and forgot to eat until 6 hours later. I was talking to a guy from the local Med School, and when I mentioned this he said it had to do with the sympathetic and parasympathetic nervous systems, and that it takes the body a while to shift from a predominance of one back to the other.

More recently, I've talked to a few folks who have noticed the same kind of "appetite supressant" thing happening somewhere in the range of 30-45 minutes for the run. One woman seemed overjoyed that she had found someone else who had the same kind of "not hungry at breakfast" experience... for her the break point was at about 40 minutes. Another woman who coaches walkers said that she is usually hungry when she starts a workout (early morning) but that there's a certain point, somewhere between 30 and 45 minutes, where the hunger just disappears. She thinks that's the time when her fat metabolism has taken charge and she's into some good endurance training.

I'm not sure how HR figures into any of this, but mine does stabilize at a lower-than-normal rate for the first 20-30 minutes of a run (after a 10-minute warm-up walk.) Then, at the same pace, the HR goes up by about 7 bpm and stays around there for at least the next hour. Maybe it just takes me that long to warm up.

Well, that's just me and a few people I've talked to. YMMV (pun intended.)

Gino

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posted Oct-10-2007 04:59 PM               

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posted Oct-10-2007 06:01 PM            

Short version:
St. George Marathon 3:04:50

Thanks to Jesse, Aharmer, Jimmy and all who chime in regularly. This stuff actually works.

Long Version

------------------
Tom

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posted Oct-10-2007 06:10 PM               

quote:

---

Originally posted by Gregolowe:
Well, I used my FR305 for the first time today on my lunch break. Very interesting. I found out that I run at about an 8:30-9:00 pace. I thought I was jogging at about a 11-12 minute pace. I hit 6:00/mile going down hill, and I was just coasting. No wonder I can't keep my hr from jumping over MAF (which is not 141 thanks to my birthday on the 1st). Also, it seems that the communication between my chest strap and the unit may be delayed as it seemed to lag behind what I was perceiving physiologically. My timex seemed to give almost instantaneous feedback. With the FR305, by the time my alert went off for my HR being too high ( I set it to sound at 136, MAF-5 so I could slow down ) I was already at 139 or so, invariably sending me a few beats over MAF. Easy enough to fix. I'll just have to set my alarm lower. Also, the GPS has a little lag to it as my pace would take a little bit of time to pick up from walking to running, maybe 20-30 paces or so. I'm not complaining, just making observations. Oh, the motionbased seems to have problems with MAC. Bummer. Overall, it'll be cool to track my mileage and pace in the woods now without having to guess. I customized the display too to show the HR more prominently as the original display in the corner was just way too tiny.

---

I'll try to respond to a few things in random order. First, as long
as you have at least OS 10.4, there is no problem with Mac and
motionbased. If you have 10.3 or earlier, indeed, that's a problem. However, there is some kind of motionbased
issue going on today. Next, I have a polar, a Nike, and a 305,
and there's no difference in how fast the HR monitors keep up.
I'm not exactly sure what's going on to indicate that. I use
the quad display setting, with time, pace (speed for biking),
heart rate, and (something else obvious that I can't think of at the moment!). I don't fully get the gist of your first observations - sorry.

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posted Oct-10-2007 06:20 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by Gregolowe:
I found out that I run at about an 8:30-9:00 pace. I thought I was jogging at about a 11-12 minute pace. I hit 6:00/mile going down hill, and I was just coasting.

---

Don't pay any attention to the instantaneous pace. GPS is terrible at this. If you set the display to "pace - lap" it will give you the average for the lap you are on. You can set autolap to 1.0 or 0.5 miles or whatever and you get a reasonable compromise between responsiveness and accuracy.

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posted Oct-10-2007 06:24 PM               

quote:

---

Originally posted by bdags:
That's great! I'm amazed that you can recover that quick from such a workout. I noticed that you are often running the day after a marathon. I'm still recovering from my 10 mile race on Sunday. I should be fine by tomorrow, but it seems that I need a minimum of 3 days off.

---

My recovery, I believe, comes from a reasonably high amount of
running mileage, all at low HR, and consistent cycling and swimming.
Just 3 years ago, running a marathon for me meant that I shouldn't
plan any outdoor activities for at least a few weeks. I think when I
started incorporating back to back 20 milers, my recovery improved
dramatically (I'm not suggestion everyone do this, but it turned out
to be a great prep for races of 50 miles and beyond). If you look
through my log at my races and training
between about mid February and April, you'll see where the speed
of my recovery absolutely amazed me, especially given where I
was not that long before. Most would have told me not to run
several marathons in the week approaching a tough 50k race, but
I figured what the heck. I did get a 15 minute PR in that race in
much tougher and muddier conditions than in the year before. Most
would have told me not to run that 50k race the week before my
second try at a 100 miler. They certainly would have told me not
to run a 20 miler the day after that 50k race, now 6 days before
the 100 miler. I finished the 100 miler 4 hours faster than my
absolute dream time, and picked up about a 20 minute 50 mile
PR in the first half. I thought for sure I wouldn't be able to run
the Boston marathon 2 weeks after the 100 miler. I felt pretty
good a couple days after the 100, so I decided I would run Boston
"easy." I basically resumed normal training mileage by the end
of that week and decided to push it a bit in Boston. Got a nice
PR! I can keep going through my next few races, but the point
is made. Something's working, at least as far as my objectives go.
I'd like to share it and see if it can work this well for others. It
does take time, but in the grand scheme of things, a year or
two is not much time for dramatic changes.

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posted Oct-10-2007 06:27 PM               

quote:

---

Originally posted by TommyL:
Just wanted to post an update. I have been MAFFing since January. I already had a 3:15 marathon under my belt but felt I should be doing a little better and decided to give it a try. Anyway started out with a pace of around 9:30-10:00. Got the average pace down to around 8:30 outside and 7:00 on the TM. 98% of all runs were done under MAF. I threw in a couple of tempo runs toward the end of my marathon buildup.

Short version:
St. George Marathon 3:04:50

Thanks to Jesse, Aharmer, Jimmy and all who chime in regularly. This stuff actually works.

Long Version

---

sweet! congrats to you - it's nice to see more folks reaping the
benefits. It's like learning the good life!

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posted Oct-10-2007 07:27 PM               

quote:

---

Originally posted by TommyL:
Just wanted to post an update. I have been MAFFing since January. I already had a 3:15 marathon under my belt but felt I should be doing a little better and decided to give it a try. Anyway started out with a pace of around 9:30-10:00. Got the average pace down to around 8:30 outside and 7:00 on the TM. 98% of all runs were done under MAF. I threw in a couple of tempo runs toward the end of my marathon buildup.

Short version:
St. George Marathon 3:04:50

Thanks to Jesse, Aharmer, Jimmy and all who chime in regularly. This stuff actually works.

Long Version

---

Great job!

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posted Oct-10-2007 07:59 PM               

Have a question for all.
Been looking at the earlier threads about this, and found that a guy named boston124 seemed to have great results with adding 5 to his number. It later turned out that he thought he needed to, but he didnt.

My MAF is 151, but I am becomming frustrated with not being able to run almost all the time (read almost no running). Today I tried to add 5 , so my MAF was 156.
Felt much nicer. I could run almost all the time, and I didnt have 15.00 mpm anymore, but more like 12.50-13.20.

Do you think it could be a good idea to stay at 156 for awhile, until I feel I have better control, and I have increased my aerobic fitness. And then start to lower it down towards 151 again?

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posted Oct-10-2007 08:09 PM               

quote:

---

Originally posted by leitnerj:
I'll try to respond to a few things in random order. First, as long
as you have at least OS 10.4, there is no problem with Mac and
motionbased. If you have 10.3 or earlier, indeed, that's a problem. However, there is some kind of motionbased
issue going on today. Next, I have a polar, a Nike, and a 305,
and there's no difference in how fast the HR monitors keep up.
I'm not exactly sure what's going on to indicate that. I use
the quad display setting, with time, pace (speed for biking),
heart rate, and (something else obvious that I can't think of at the moment!). I don't fully get the gist of your first observations - sorry.

---

I was just trying to say that when I run, I run at a 8:30-9:00/moile pace before my alarm says I need to slow down due to my HR getting too high. I have to walk at that point. My pace has always averaged out at about 12:30 per mile or so when the walking is factored in. So my running is alot faster than I thought. I thought I was jogging at about 10-11/mile pace. As for the computer, I have MacOS. Or OX, I'm not sure.

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posted Oct-10-2007 08:18 PM               

quote:

---

Originally posted by Gregolowe:
I was just trying to say that when I run, I run at a 8:30-9:00/moile pace before my alarm says I need to slow down due to my HR getting too high. I have to walk at that point. My pace has always averaged out at about 12:30 per mile or so when the walking is factored in. So my running is alot faster than I thought. I thought I was jogging at about 10-11/mile pace. As for the computer, I have MacOS. Or OX, I'm not sure.

---

They're all MacOS. It's the number that matters. If you
have 10.4, then you'll be fine - you just need to install the
plug-in. If you have anything earlier than 10.4, then you
have an unsupported operating system (they're only supporting
the newer ones). If you don't know, then you can just go to the
Apple menu (upper left corner) and choose "About this Mac"
at which point you should see what OS version you have.

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posted Oct-10-2007 08:29 PM               

quote:

---

Originally posted by TommyL:
Just wanted to post an update. I have been MAFFing since January. I already had a 3:15 marathon under my belt but felt I should be doing a little better and decided to give it a try. Anyway started out with a pace of around 9:30-10:00. Got the average pace down to around 8:30 outside and 7:00 on the TM. 98% of all runs were done under MAF. I threw in a couple of tempo runs toward the end of my marathon buildup.

Short version:
St. George Marathon 3:04:50

Thanks to Jesse, Aharmer, Jimmy and all who chime in regularly. This stuff actually works.

Long Version

---

Nice work!

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posted Oct-11-2007 12:10 AM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by TommyL:
Just wanted to post an update. I have been MAFFing since January. I already had a 3:15 marathon under my belt but felt I should be doing a little better and decided to give it a try. Anyway started out with a pace of around 9:30-10:00. Got the average pace down to around 8:30 outside and 7:00 on the TM. 98% of all runs were done under MAF. I threw in a couple of tempo runs toward the end of my marathon buildup.

Short version:
St. George Marathon 3:04:50

Thanks to Jesse, Aharmer, Jimmy and all who chime in regularly. This stuff actually works.

Long Version

---

Excuse me, while I wipe the drool off my keyboard...3:04!!
Congratulations, Tommy. It can't be possible, training this way and knocking 11 minutes (6%) off your marathon time. Isn't la-la land great?
Keep going. get to 2:59!

--Jimmy

MAF log

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posted Oct-11-2007 10:00 AM            

I posted my results for thus far right here:

http://www.coolrunning.com/forums/Forum6/HTML/025479.shtml

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posted Oct-11-2007 12:34 PM               

I'm gonna post some quick and dirty numbers:
Current weekly mileage: 50-55 (all Maff since 5/12 except 4 shorter races)
July, Aug, Sept monthly average was ~200 miles
Current outdoor Maff pace (when rested with good weather): ~9:30
5k race (7/21/07): 20:20 (3:18 pace McMillan)
25k (5/12/07): 2:06 (3:41 McMillan)
20 miler on 10/8: 4 of the last 5 at goal MP, HR's were 158, 167, 167, 171 (uphill). The last mile was a cool down

I also run at Maff (-10) for a hypertension condition. Which by the way is at an all time low and maybe time to evaulate if meds are still needed. If I were to run at actual Maff my outdoor pace would probably be closer to 9/mile.

So here's the standard taper question; Does anyone have input on my marathon goal?

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posted Oct-11-2007 01:22 PM            

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posted Oct-11-2007 02:06 PM               

quote:

---

Originally posted by TommyL:
Just wanted to post an update. I have been MAFFing since January. I already had a 3:15 marathon under my belt but felt I should be doing a little better and decided to give it a try. Anyway started out with a pace of around 9:30-10:00. Got the average pace down to around 8:30 outside and 7:00 on the TM. 98% of all runs were done under MAF. I threw in a couple of tempo runs toward the end of my marathon buildup.

Short version:
St. George Marathon 3:04:50

Thanks to Jesse, Aharmer, Jimmy and all who chime in regularly. This stuff actually works.

Long Version

---

Clearly, to me, a sub 3-hour marathon is not far ahead. At least, based on the numbers you mention. If your MAF pace (max aerobic pace) is around 8:30 and you're able to run 3:04, it tells me there is still a good amount of imbalance. And as you improve on that (correct it) by building more aerobic base, your race time should also improve.

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posted Oct-11-2007 03:07 PM            

I am a 35 y/o female, started running in April after many years of a sedentary lifestyle. Yesterday I got a HR monitor.

My resting heart rate is between 58 and 62, and if it matters I have genetically low blood pressure (if I'm stressed it's at about 96/65, otherwise it's lower).

If I figured things correctly I should be running at a max of 145 (I use an inhaler for asmtha as needed during the day but I didn't subtract for daily medication. I use it 0-3 times a day).

Is there a point that is too low to get benefit? I'm not officially following the LHR training yet, as I only run 10-15 miles a week right now. What if I actually am more comfortable runing at 138?
I tend to run really slow, but I was still having issues being able to complete or exceed 30 minutes. Today was my long run (since I have my first tri this weekend), and it was the longest I have ever run and I ran it comfortably. I watched the monitor and tried to keep my HR under 135. Getting up towards 140 I felt like I was going too fast to talk comfortably.

Any insight or suggestions would be greatly appreciated. My bf says I am running WAY too slow.

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posted Oct-11-2007 03:38 PM            

Any comments or advice very welcome. Thanks in advance.

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