posted Oct-06-2007 10:25 AM               

I left for my 7+ mile run in beautiful, sunny (albeit too hot and humid for my taste) weather. By mile 4, I could see some really nasty clouds rolling in, but I thought for sure I'd be done my run before the storm hit. Well, I wasn't. The lightning started part way through my 6th mile. By the middle of mile 7, I was getting a little nervous. Then a there was a lightning strike about 100ft off to my left (and a HUGE crack of thunder!) that scared the living crap out of me! It scared me so badly I ended up running much faster on my way home than I have in months. Hit a max pace of 6:44, and a max HR of 178 (95% of what I believe to be my max HR). The really interesting thing is- a few months ago, I would have almost thrown up running at that high a HR, even for a short time. This time I felt completely fine (and relieved that I didn't get struck by lightning!).

Let this be a lesson to all the other MAF newbies out there- the body really does remember how to run fast, and it actually feels better after some solid basebuilding!

Amid all this technical talk, I thought I'd share my little experience with everyone. Made me feel a little more confident about my upcoming HM!

Pam

------------------
ME!

IP: Logged

posted Oct-06-2007 04:29 PM            

Today was my first "tuneup" race for my Nov. 11 marathon. Today was a 15k, two weeks from today will be my last tuneup race (25k). The weather forecast wasn't promising so I wasn't expecting much (73* - 73* dew point). My plan was to keep my HR between 150 - 155 until the last mile or so.

I have no qualms with using my HRM to help set my pace. Actually I rather enjoy it. Over the past year I've learned a lot about how I feel at various paces. ie At 170 I know the end better be near because I can only hold it for a few miles. I have no idea what my MHR or AT are.

So the plan was to learn what the 150's felt like. Well, they felt pretty good and I was able to speed up the last 2 miles. I even ended up with a small PR (1:16.46). My previous PR (1:17.03) was back on 2/3/07 with temps in the low 50's and a dew point below 30.

Along with my tuneup races I'm running all 3 of the races I ran last year. The first was 2 weeks ago, a 5k that resulted in a 3 minute course PR. The second will be next weekend a 10k. The course is the same so it will be interested to compare the results. I'm debating how hard to run it, I don't want to race too much and possibly lose any of the aerobic conditioning I've gained.

------------------
stretch

[This message has been edited by streeetch (edited Oct-06-2007).]

IP: Logged

posted Oct-07-2007 08:33 AM               

IP: Logged

posted Oct-07-2007 10:20 AM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by KSC:
Is there a track workout or anything i can use to dertmine my AT? Or is this only doable with lab work?
Thanks.

---

I am wondering the same thing.
Where would one get such a test done if they did decide to?

IP: Logged

posted Oct-07-2007 10:57 AM               

6.67mi. Temp 63, DP 63 (RH 100%- light rain), Winds 6-12mph.

(Note- slower pace in mile 5-6 is due to hill lasting from mile 5.6-6.4)
Mile 1 11:58/113 (5min walk at start)
Mile 2 9:51/135
Mile 3 9:24/144
Mile 4 9:41/145
Mile 5 10:21/145
Mile 6 10:26/144
Mile 6.67 6:58/145 (pace 10:22)

Just to gove some perspective, here's my most recent MAF test, done just last week:

5mi. Temp 53-61, DP 50, Winds W 3mph.

Mile 1 10:27/145
Mile 2 11:02/146
Mile 3 11:32/146
Mile 4 11:36/145
Mile 5 11:51/147

I'd say that's a pretty big change. I took a look back at my 2nd last MAF test (my best one to date) to see how today's run compared. I was really pleased to see that on that MAF test,, my fastest mile (mile 1) took 9:37. Today- mile 3 was even faster than that, so I've clearly made some progress, and I couldn't be more thrilled.

OK, folks- remind me of this the next time I get down on myself for having a few crappy runs. Clearly, it pays to have faith in the training, and persist even when things seem to be going down the crapper!!!

Pam

------------------
ME!

IP: Logged

posted Oct-07-2007 01:43 PM               

quote:

---

Originally posted by streeetch:
Congradulations Gregolowe. 50k, Wow! I hope to someday get there.

Today was my first "tuneup" race for my Nov. 11 marathon. Today was a 15k, two weeks from today will be my last tuneup race (25k). The weather forecast wasn't promising so I wasn't expecting much (73* - 73* dew point). My plan was to keep my HR between 150 - 155 until the last mile or so.

I have no qualms with using my HRM to help set my pace. Actually I rather enjoy it. Over the past year I've learned a lot about how I feel at various paces. ie At 170 I know the end better be near because I can only hold it for a few miles. I have no idea what my MHR or AT are.

So the plan was to learn what the 150's felt like. Well, they felt pretty good and I was able to speed up the last 2 miles. I even ended up with a small PR (1:16.46). My previous PR (1:17.03) was back on 2/3/07 with temps in the low 50's and a dew point below 30.

Along with my tuneup races I'm running all 3 of the races I ran last year. The first was 2 weeks ago, a 5k that resulted in a 3 minute course PR. The second will be next weekend a 10k. The course is the same so it will be interested to compare the results. I'm debating how hard to run it, I don't want to race too much and possibly lose any of the aerobic conditioning I've gained.

---

Well, actually it was 50 miles. I did my first ultra, a 50K, on Sept 9. You can do it, and probably sooner than you might think. It all depends on your goals and how you structure your training. Listen to me given advice like I know what I'm talkin about. Good luck with your training. I like your approack to learning how different effort levels feel at different heart rates. This is one big benefit I got from the training the 11 weeks I did it-greater body awareness.

Oh, and catwoman, very nice. Great progress. You need to save this page or print it out, laminate it, and bring it with you on your runs.

[This message has been edited by Gregolowe (edited Oct-07-2007).]

IP: Logged

posted Oct-07-2007 03:53 PM               

quote:

---

Originally posted by ejr:
I am wondering the same thing.
Where would one get such a test done if they did decide to?

---

No workout will give you accurate information. A treadmill test with a gas analyzer to determine oxygen uptake, carbon dioxide output, heart rate changes, etc. will do that. It will also give you RQ, which we've talked about here a lot, and is probably the most important number (when related to HR) for aerobic training.

These tests are usually done in a university setting, but there are many private people doing them these days. Beware, as anyone with a little money can set up their own facility. You want an accurate test, accurate interpretation and intelligent recommendations for your particular needs.

IP: Logged

posted Oct-07-2007 04:19 PM               

IP: Logged

posted Oct-07-2007 05:41 PM               

quote:

---

Originally posted by DavidD:
Can someone tell me how to post a chart here? I think the guy from Denmark attempted to post something that showed aerobic and anaerobic energy contributions to various distances (I think that's what he was trying to do...other than promote his book). I have a slide that lists this, and it's a great thing to bring up as a reason for aerobic base building (and why one could race so well with a good base).

---

You have to post it on a website and use the link to the website.
You can't attach a picture directly.

------------------
MyRunningLog
MyStuff
Low Heart Rate Training FAQ
My marathons and ultras
My races and reports

IP: Logged

posted Oct-07-2007 10:13 PM            

I came across this method of training late in 2006 and began running at MAF in order to prepare for this year's (today's, my first marathon) Chicago Marathon. Since December 2006 I have run everything at or below my MAF (157), including all marathon training runs. I started out not being able to run more than a half mile below MAF even at a 14:30 min pace and had to alternate running/walking. By the end of marathon training buildup I was running 20 miles below my MAF.

Well as you might know, the Chicago Marathon was brutal today - I knew it would be hot but I knew enough about my body and heart rate to really monitor myself throughout the race. I wanted to at least give the marathon a try, but was realistic about dropping out if necessary. Given the expected heat I started slow but my HR remained a little high (mid 160s) - but after I paced myself slowly for the first 3 miles I got up to my 10 min pace at about a 168-170 HR, and managed to stay there through the entire first half of the course.

The second half was a lot tougher and I began walking/running because I couldn't keep my HR from going into the mid 170s, and I wasn't totally convinced I could stay run safely at that high of a HR, especially in the heat. I thought it was better safe than sorry to walk instead of really push it. Anyways, I got past the heat and the cops telling me to walk and finished in 4:39:16 - obviously not what I hoped and what I trained for, but given the circumstances, I was happy to a. finish and b. go without medical assistance.

I'm positive I could not have dealt with the weather and finished without training this way for so long, so I just wanted to give a quick thanks to everyone's input into this thread. Knowing my HR limits definitely helped me just finish and stay safe today. Once my legs heal I'm sure I'll be back at it, but after today, another marathon might be a little ways away (but that race report is a whole nother post ).

IP: Logged

posted Oct-08-2007 04:34 AM               

IP: Logged

posted Oct-08-2007 07:18 AM               

quote:

---

Originally posted by KSC:
Mr Leitner, what's your personal approach on race prep speedwork for both 10Ks(if you ever run them) and marathons? Do you train a certain percentage of your weekly mileage in speed and set percentage on your long run?
thanks

---

I don't do any speedwork at all, but there are many folks here who
do. I'll run a few short races, but for the most part marathons are
my speedwork. I also do two one-hour runs per week on the treadmill at
zero incline, which gives me maximum speed at minimum heart
rate. Finally, I do a lot of courses with significant hills and I pick up
the pace significantly down the hills, down to far faster than I would
run in any race, even if for relatively short durations. I'll still stay
under MAF when I do.

With that said, most of the people here who have been doing MAF
running for a while incorporate speed work in various ways. I'd
recommend using your favorite flavor but keep it to about 5% of
your overall training volume. The better your aerobic development
is, the more volume and more intensity you can take without
withering away your aerobic base. There are probably several here
that may be doing more like 10-15%.

------------------
MyRunningLog
MyStuff
Low Heart Rate Training FAQ
My marathons and ultras
My races and reports

IP: Logged

posted Oct-08-2007 03:54 PM               

My average HR for the race was 175 with a max of 195.

Mile 1: 9:10/162
Mile 2: 8:25/166
Mile 3: 9:16/173
Mile 4: 9:11/170
Mile 5: 9:05/173
Mile 6: 9:28/176
Mile 7: 9:10/178
Mile 8: 8:35/179
Mile 9: 8:22/185
Mile 10: 8:23/187
Partial mile .32 2:50/191 (Polar foot pod wasn't calibrated correctly--so my watch said I ran 10.32 miles)

I felt fine throughout the race (no heavy breathing or cramping). My plan was to keep my HR in the low to mid 160s for the first 7-8 miles and 170s after that, but the humidity didn't allow it. I didn't think I'd be able to maintain such a high HR since I've never run one of these before.

Is this dangerous? Is it likely that I could (or should) maintain similar HRs under better weather conditions?

IP: Logged

posted Oct-08-2007 04:03 PM               

http://www.coolrunning.com/forums/Forum8/HTML/010623.shtml

My max is lower but as a percentage, it tracks with bdags post. I've heard not to race with a HRM but looking at the data, it does make me wonder if I wasn't pushing too hard (particularly worrisome with the deaths yesterday).

------------------
My Running Log

My User Profile

IP: Logged

posted Oct-08-2007 04:04 PM               

quote:

---

Originally posted by brianm16:

I'm positive I could not have dealt with the weather and finished without training this way for so long, so I just wanted to give a quick thanks to everyone's input into this thread. Knowing my HR limits definitely helped me just finish and stay safe today. Once my legs heal I'm sure I'll be back at it, but after today, another marathon might be a little ways away (but that race report is a whole nother post ).

---

I think you've hit on what I believe is probably the best result of this
form of training, well above pace improvements, low heart rates,
better races, etc. You really get to know yourself inside and out.
You know when a problem is approaching. You know when you have
to back out before it's too late, or worse yet, dangerous. As I mentioned
in an earlier post, it helps you remove the prospect for a bad day ...
even on a bad day! Congrats on your progress.

------------------
MyRunningLog
MyStuff
Low Heart Rate Training FAQ
My marathons and ultras
My races and reports

IP: Logged

posted Oct-08-2007 04:11 PM               

quote:

---

Originally posted by MarcP:

Does anybody else use MAF principles for triathlon? Any observations/learnings for me to consider here?

I obviously know/get the idea of not eating carbs before (apart from being a Brit and having a cup of tea with a small spoon of sugar an hour or so before), but what about post training eating - is there any MAF guidance about what might be detrimental to the MAF effect?

Another observation, and I think people have mentioned this before - about 30 mins in to training, I notice my HR notch up a little and become a little erratic (although this effect is diminishing slightly with each session). I wonder what's going on here? I remember hearing from years ago that "you have to do >30 mins exercise to get in to fat burning mode".

---

It just occurred to me that I didn't respond to this. Indeed I use
it for triathlon. I use the same target heart rate for all three sports
an I've had the same sort of success in all of them. I'm not sure
in which it's been the most dramatic. I don't know of any MAF
post-training eating, but Jesse post-training eating is about a
gallon of chocolate milk! I don't believe that you need to hit > 30
minutes to hit fat burning mode - unless you were taking in carbs
before the activity. Sounds like a wive's tale. DavidD may be
able to respond to that one. Heart rates do funny things.

------------------
MyRunningLog
MyStuff
Low Heart Rate Training FAQ
My marathons and ultras
My races and reports

IP: Logged

posted Oct-08-2007 04:17 PM               

quote:

---

Originally posted by bdags:

I felt fine throughout the race (no heavy breathing or cramping). My plan was to keep my HR in the low to mid 160s for the first 7-8 miles and 170s after that, but the humidity didn't allow it. I didn't think I'd be able to maintain such a high HR since I've never run one of these before.

Is this dangerous? Is it likely that I could (or should) maintain similar HRs under better weather conditions?

---

Not quite enough info to make the determination, but given what
you express about your feelings, nothing sounds dangerous at
all. An analysis of your results would involve not only the temperature
and dewpoint profile throughout the race, but the temperatures and
dewpoints of your training runs over the past several weeks before.
In either case, it sounds as if you used your feelings and your knowledge
about your heart rate to keep things under control, which I would say
is the smart thing to do. Most likely you can do much, much better
in lower dewpoint (most important) and lower temperatures.

------------------
MyRunningLog
MyStuff
Low Heart Rate Training FAQ
My marathons and ultras
My races and reports

IP: Logged

posted Oct-08-2007 04:21 PM               

quote:

---

Originally posted by dgb2n:
I'm interested in the answer to bdags post as well. Sounds very similar to my experience yesterday in the Army 10. Race report here:

http://www.coolrunning.com/forums/Forum8/HTML/010623.shtml

My max is lower but as a percentage, it tracks with bdags post. I've heard not to race with a HRM but looking at the data, it does make me wonder if I wasn't pushing too hard (particularly worrisome with the deaths yesterday).

---

While more recommend racing without an HRM than with one, I've
learned to really use the HRM to peak in races and know exactly
when and how to cut back when for some reason it just isn't there,
making the best of whatever situation is present. Without the
HR monitor, most of my race times would be much slower, either
due to early burn out, or more commonly slowing down due to
fatigue when I really think it's because my aerobic system has
been worn down.

------------------
MyRunningLog
MyStuff
Low Heart Rate Training FAQ
My marathons and ultras
My races and reports

IP: Logged

posted Oct-08-2007 05:21 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by bdags:

Is this dangerous? Is it likely that I could (or should) maintain similar HRs under better weather conditions?

---

Not dangerous and you probably could maintain it under better weather conditions. I'm 36, my max is 200, and I've averaged 180, 182, and 184 in the 3 10-milers I've run with a HRM. The 184 was in heat/humidity while the 180 and 182 weren't but I'm not sure the weather was the difference. I was better rested before the 184, which usually leads to a higher heart rate for me.

IP: Logged

posted Oct-08-2007 06:04 PM               

Do you seriously think that I have been promoting a book?

hehe. Dont think you read any of my other posts..

IP: Logged

posted Oct-08-2007 06:19 PM               

I obviously know/get the idea of not eating carbs before (apart from being a Brit and having a cup of tea with a small spoon of sugar an hour or so before), but what about post training eating - is there any MAF guidance about what might be detrimental to the MAF effect?

Another observation, and I think people have mentioned this before - about 30 mins in to training, I notice my HR notch up a little and become a little erratic (although this effect is diminishing slightly with each session). I wonder what's going on here? I remember hearing from years ago that "you have to do >30 mins exercise to get in to fat burning mode".

I missed this one, thanks leitnerj.

Most of the discussions here can be applied to triathlon (and all endurance activity), including, and especially, using the same aerobic/MAF heart rate. The difference will be perceived exertion. So, running at 140 HR will have a certain feel, but biking at 140 HR will feel harder. Swimming at 140 will be difficult if not impossible if your mechanics are good, and will feel very hard (a good judge of swim mechanics).

My recommendation after a workout is to eat when you need to (for most people, that’s probably relatively soon). For anaerobic and long workouts (and races), eat/drink some food with readily available carbs (monosaccharides like fruit juice, honey) right away (with a lot of water, and for many athletes, some sodium).

I’ve not seen a problem with fat burning taking 30 minutes to kick in during a run, unless there’s a real metabolic problem, such as a person starting out with a very high RQ (poor fat burning). The fact is, you should be lacing your shoes with a low RQ (good fat burning), meaning, one should have a low resting RQ.

IP: Logged

posted Oct-08-2007 06:30 PM               

quote:

---

Originally posted by henrikker:
@DavidD

Do you seriously think that I have been promoting a book?

hehe. Dont think you read any of my other posts..

---

Sorry if I'm in error. I read that in a post. But I liked the chart you tried posting. Was it from Maffetone's book or a website there? I tried posting a similar chart but will probably send it to leitnerj for his site so people can see it. The idea that even in a 30-minute 10K one obtains 95% of their energy from the aerobic system is a great reminder to build a huge aerobic base. And in a marathon, 99% of the energy used in the race comes from the aerobic system.

IP: Logged

posted Oct-09-2007 02:56 AM               

http://www.m88.dk/pages/_225f07a4ddbf6e34c125712c005d1504

Thats where I found the chart. about 2/3s down.

IP: Logged

posted Oct-09-2007 11:30 AM               

7.33 miles in 1.41

First mile was all "running" in 16 min.
Wlaking would have been around 1,35, so I am not to happy with it. But again, as some of you have mentioned, it probably just indicate how much I need to do this.

Have been thinking about adding a little to the HR though. Maybe put it up to 160. and run at 153-160 (70-75% MHR). Might work just as well right.. Since I cant bee 100% that 151 is my MAF (180-29(age)).

IP: Logged

posted Oct-09-2007 09:41 PM               

I just looked at your running log. Are you training for an Ironman??

That's a lot of volume. I got tired just looking at it.....

IP: Logged