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Topic: Basebuilding, low heart rate training, via Maffetone/Mark Allen/Hadd/Mittleman |
catwoman73
Cool Runner |
 posted Oct-03-2007 10:21 AM
   
quote:
Originally posted by MarcP:
Another observation, and I think people have mentioned this before - about 30 mins in to training, I notice my HR notch up a little and become a little erratic (although this effect is diminishing slightly with each session). I wonder what's going on here? I remember hearing from years ago that "you have to do >30 mins exercise to get in to fat burning mode".Catwoman (hi, BTW) mentioned about doing MAF testing. How do you actually note the time of each mile - do you stop and write it down or is it a function of your watch? I wonder how I'll do this on my treadmill (for consistency). MarcP
Hi Marc, I have a Polar sd200 HRM. It also tracks distance, and automatically notes the time for each mile. I do my MAF tests outdoors, so this is ideal for me. If you have a regular HRM with a lap function, you can just hit the lap button on your watch when you finish each mile. That is probably the easiest thing for you to do on a TM. I highly recommend purchasing a Garmin or a Polar sd200, 400 or 800 depending on your preferences and needs, for your outdoor, day-to-day running. Having a device that tracks distance, pace, time, etc, has made MAF training a LOT easier! I am one of those people who have noticed a jump in my HR at the 30 min mark. Not on every run, but it happens more often than not. I hadn't noticed this when I first started MAF training, but over the last month, I've been suffering horribly with allergies, and I believe that the jump in HR could reflect a point where you body is starting to show signs of being stressed. It also could be the start of dehydration- I've recently discovered that I really haven't been drinking enough on my runs (lost 3lbs on an 11 mile run today, despite drinking enough to not feel thirsty). There are a million different things that can affect your HR, and how your HR changes during a particular run. I'm learning that I just have to take really, really good care of myself- physically, mentally and emotionally, if I want to run my best every day. Welcome to the group! Pam ------------------
ME!
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DavidD
Cool Runner |
posted Oct-03-2007 10:51 AM
quote:
Originally posted by jjwaverly42:
A reminder to the MAF masses, and especially with those wallowing in your the frustrating funkhood of the beginning stages and practicing some high level whining, that there is a whole chapter in Training For Endurance by Phil Maffeton about Anaerobic work. I never called the Maffetone training LOW-HEART RATE training--it's not. It's a form of training that has an aerobic phase and a phase that includes anaerobic work. Here are some quotes from Training For Endurance by Dr. Philip Maffetone Chapter 12 (2nd revised Edition, David Barmore Productions, ©2000):"once you've built sufficient aerobic function, your body may be ready to add anaerobic work. I say 'may' because many endurance athletes can often bypass this part of training, and rely instead on racing to get all the anaerobic stimulation necessary... ....The main purpose of anaerobic training is to build the fast-twitch muscle fibers. For endurance athletes, maximum benefits can be achived easily in as short a time as 3-4 weeks... ...anaerobic workouts can be treacherous domain. This risky training is frequently the cause of injuries, fatigue and poor performance. ..keep it simple...keep it short...if the duration of anaerobi workouts is excessive, it can contribute to overtraining and ill health... ..including races, do not exceed 2-3 anaerobic workouts per week. For many athletes, one is sufficient... ...the day before and after should be easy...never do two consecutive days... ...45 minutes maximum... ...do not exceed 90% MHR ...always warm-up and cool down sufficiently... ...Consider Mike Pigg's 1994 season--one of his best. He won most of his races and finished high up in the rest. He did not do any anaerobic work until September, when most of his races were completed."
Basically, he sees a need for it, after you've built your aerobic function for a good period of time. But not much need. A few weeks before race season, and the races themselves will usually suffice.
For a marathon I will do 2-3 race pace runs (these aren't anaerobic, but they get close), and some lactate threshold runs (20-40) minutes in the 6-8 weeks leading into the race. I try not to exceed 10-15% of total weekly mileage at these HR's. The rest is below MAF. If you haven't read Training for Endurance, I highly recommend it. Training for Endurance by Phil Maffetone (buy it here) --Jimmy
A great review, thanks Jimmy. I should add that for endurance athletes (as opposed to real sprinters, i.e. < 400 meters) obtaining anaerobic benefits come relatively easy. Short intervals, even once a week, for a month will build about as much as anyone will need.
The old term 'speed kills' still applies. I think more injuries occur when an runner is anaerobic, especially on the track. There's a tendency to sprint (as opposed to go at race pace or 'goal' pace), and overstride as well.
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KSC
Cool Runner |
posted Oct-03-2007 12:32 PM
Jimmy, thanks a lot; and thanks to you, Jesse, for opening my eyes to MAF training. I ran a tempo run today at 170 bpm, and I was flying- about 45 seconds faster than my training pace. Using 180-22+5+163, I decided to train between 155 and 160. I've been doing that for about 6 weeks. Today during my tempo run, I didn't get any leg burn, just heavier breathing. I only ran for 3 miles, but it felt great. I definitely feel like I could've finished a 10 miler at that pace. I usually MAF around 8:30-8:45, and today I ran my first mile in 7:34 and my third at 7:37. I'm a MAF fan for life. I've got a HM in Nov and about a month early in the new year where I will have to put my training on hold for some aditional schooling, after that I plan on fully devoting myself to 4-5 months of MAF training and hopefully hitting my goal of 50 mpw.
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lowgear1
Member |
posted Oct-03-2007 01:25 PM
Many thanks to all the informative posters and a special thanks to jjwaverly42. To wit: a post of yours citing some MAF exceptions regarding age. I being 58 had mistakenly calculated my MAF HR without the extra 5 bpm as allowed for the plus 50 folks. This is just one of the many nuances of this training that can be easily overlooked, so it pays to review this material especially if results seem unusual. My unfortunate oversight resulted in an extended self-imposed stay in the "MAF-atarium" this past summer. I languished needlessly at shamefully slow paces, but upon correcting my MAF for age I became the new kid on the block and was ready to blow this joint. Now granted there are no guards or fences at this MAF compound, but I felt somewhat guilty when I blasted thru the front gate at a reckless sub 14mm pace, the risk of bloody nipples notwithstanding. Damn the torpedos....Full speed ahead! If I could read lips, I'm sure some of the lemonade sipping inmates were mouthing "He'll be back......He'll be back, He's running like a 55 year old. But in spite of laying a trail of cookie crumbs I vowed never to return.------------------
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Gregolowe
Cool Runner |
posted Oct-03-2007 01:47 PM
Well, I had posted quite a few posts a few pages back about a poor MAF test after 11 weeks of MAF training. I undertook the training in the midst of training for the VT50 which I completed on Sunday. I believe the training helped me remain injury free so as to be able to do the 50, which I'm thankful for. I thought I should post my result for completeness sake. I don't have alot of data as I only wear a timex heart rate monitor and didn't have mileage markers for splits. All I can tell you is what I saw on my wrist as I watched it all day. I walked the ups, and ran the downs and flats, what there were of them anyways. My HR would climb walking up the hills to 162-165, topping out at 167 one time. I would jog when it dropped below 155 for most of the race. It took me until about 10-12 miles in to hit on this strategy as I didn't know what to expect as I did all of my training at low heart rates and my pace had degraded over the last 11 weeks. Anyways, all that worked out to a 13:23/mile pace, good enough to finish in front of the cutoffs and in 11:13. I would have broke 11 hours if I hadn't gotten off course twice. It was lots of fun and I didn't encounter any problems till after 35 miles when I began to cramp up in my legs. I took some salt capsules and got nauseous for the rest of the night as well. Other than that and the extreme muscle soreness for the last three days, all's well. I feel like the low hr training helped me and allowed me to finish. If I had kept my HR at MAF of 142 as some here suggested, I wouldn't have made it past the second aid station. So I ran almost the whole race above MAF with only the first few flat miles being below. I now need to decide if I will stick with the MAF training through the winter or just go run. I'm leaning towards continuing with the MAF training but I have to figure out why my pace degraded. I may try the Stonecat ultra in November before I really start the winter training however. Anyways, there it is. [This message has been edited by Gregolowe (edited Oct-03-2007).]
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jamjat
Cool Runner |
posted Oct-03-2007 02:50 PM
Greg,
Congrats on your race - just this morning during my run (at practically 15 min per mile I have a lot of time to think on a 6 miler!) I was thinking about you and wondering how it went, so I was glad to read your post.
Joce
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henrikker
Member |
posted Oct-03-2007 03:48 PM
Thought I would make a post that isnt THAT negative..Did a 5 mile run/walk today. Came out like this. Mile 1: 12.37
Mile 2: 12.47
Mile 3: 13.07
Mile 4: 13.10
Mile 5: 13.27 Didnt feel tired when I finished (had to because of familty visit).
Again most of the trip was walking.. Maybe 33/66 run/walk. My MAF is 151, and I have my watch bipping at 148, so I can start walking when it starts without it jumping over 151 (did hit up to 153 once or twice). So running for 15 sec, walking for 30.. Running is around 12 mpm pace, so my HR wont suddenly jump over 151.. Then a fast walking pace at around 14 mpm. Of course I need more and more walking as I go longer. Still feels very weird, and I have found a nice flat deserted road, so only the other snails laugh at me.. But I will continue, and even though it dosent feel like an exhausting workout, I still break a sweat, and the longer time enroute will probably be worth gold later on.. Cant wait until I can run all the time.. AT less then 12 mpm.
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slowgino
Cool Runner |
posted Oct-03-2007 04:03 PM
quote:
Originally posted by jjwaverly42:
e.g.5
10
5
10
5
14
rest --Jimmy
Almost exactly the schedule I used to use: 10 easy
20 medium
10 easy
20 medium
10 easy
30
rest Where one could do it in miles for 100 mpw, or just use as %, so a 70 mile week would be 7,14,7,14,7,21. These days easy/medium would just be 2 different HRs, like e.g. "MAF-5" and "MAF-20"...
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slowgino
Cool Runner |
posted Oct-03-2007 04:14 PM
quote:
Originally posted by Leadfeet:
... I used to be able to reach a max HR of 203 before the 10 weeks of MAF training. For some reason I could only go a max HR of 186 BPM. I could recover much quickly and my run was faster than 10 weeks ago, but is this normal?
Outstanding! The quicker recovery and faster run mean the MAF training has been working. Yes, it's common to find that the MHR will decrease as one goes from bad aerobic shape to good aerobic shape. I've seen mine rise 6 bpm during a layoff and go back down after decent training (based on a 90-to 105 second "killer hill" run "hard".)
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catwoman73
Cool Runner |
posted Oct-03-2007 04:32 PM
I've decided to definitely do the HM on Nov. 4th to guage my progress, as Jesse suggested. My question to you all is this-do you think it would hurt me at this point to do one workout per week allowing my HR to go above MAF on uphills, just until the race? The reason I ask is that the last 2km of this race is uphill (4% grade). I tried today to run mile 8 of an 11 mile run up a very similar hill, and ended up walking almost all of it in order to stay below MAF. I know on race day that I won't be walking up that hill (nor will my HR be below MAF), so I'd really like to get some practice actually RUNNING uphill. I'm afraid that if I don't, my calves will be completely fried before I hit the finish line. I've been basebuilding for 12 weeks now, and would like to do another 2 months of basebuilding after this HM, before I start to train for the 30k I'm running at the end of March (which also has a really huge hill near the end!). What do you think? ------------------
ME!
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leitnerj
Cool Runner |
posted Oct-03-2007 06:49 PM
quote:
Originally posted by Gregolowe:
Well, I had posted quite a few posts a few pages back about a poor MAF test after 11 weeks of MAF training. I undertook the training in the midst of training for the VT50 which I completed on Sunday. I believe the training helped me remain injury free so as to be able to do the 50, which I'm thankful for. I thought I should post my result for completeness sake. I don't have alot of data as I only wear a timex heart rate monitor and didn't have mileage markers for splits. All I can tell you is what I saw on my wrist as I watched it all day. I walked the ups, and ran the downs and flats, what there were of them anyways. My HR would climb walking up the hills to 162-165, topping out at 167 one time. I would jog when it dropped below 155 for most of the race. It took me until about 10-12 miles in to hit on this strategy as I didn't know what to expect as I did all of my training at low heart rates and my pace had degraded over the last 11 weeks. Anyways, all that worked out to a 13:23/mile pace, good enough to finish in front of the cutoffs and in 11:13. I would have broke 11 hours if I hadn't gotten off course twice. It was lots of fun and I didn't encounter any problems till after 35 miles when I began to cramp up in my legs. I took some salt capsules and got nauseous for the rest of the night as well. Other than that and the extreme muscle soreness for the last three days, all's well. I feel like the low hr training helped me and allowed me to finish. If I had kept my HR at MAF of 142 as some here suggested, I wouldn't have made it past the second aid station. So I ran almost the whole race above MAF with only the first few flat miles being below. I now need to decide if I will stick with the MAF training through the winter or just go run. I'm leaning towards continuing with the MAF training but I have to figure out why my pace degraded. I may try the Stonecat ultra in November before I really start the winter training however. Anyways, there it is. [This message has been edited by Gregolowe (edited Oct-03-2007).]
Nice job, Greg, and it sounds like you adapted to the race very well.
Indeed, especially as a new ultrarunner and new MAFer, I could easily
see MAF not getting you past all the cutoffs in time. I still haven't
seen clear and concise evidence that your pace degraded. ------------------
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leitnerj
Cool Runner |
posted Oct-03-2007 07:52 PM
Ok, in the category of "This MAF stuff is only for people running
ultras, and slow ones at that" I thought I'd give my race result
from today. We had our
NASA Goddard 2 mile run run today at noon (we have it twice
a year, but I'm frequently on travel when it takes place). They
always schedule it on Wednesday which is my 13 mile morning
run day. I haven't bothered to change my schedule just to
accommodate a 2 mile race. The first time I ran it after MAF
training, I improved from about 13:20 to 12:46 (I did not run
long the morning of the 12:46). Since that time, each time I've
run it, it has been after the morning run and my time has generally
been about 13 or so. This week, I decided I'd remove the morning
run factor, move my 13 miler to Tuesday (yesterday) and just
do my long swim and weightlifting this morning. After all the
perfect weather we'd been having for weeks, suddenly it's hot,
sunny, and humid (dewpoint 68) at the start. Oh well, it's only
2 miles. 26 second improvement from previous PR. First
mile 6:09, second 6 flat, and 9 seconds more for the extra .03
for long corner cuts, to make 12:19. The fastest run I've done
in about 4 months was the Annapolis 10 miler, in just over 7/mile
back in August. No speedwork at all. Now, I'm not claiming that
I'm getting faster without running fast, but even today I'm still
building endurance at short distances as well as long. Here's
the GPS dump: Jesse's GSFC 2 mile race
You may be interested in the heart rate profile. You can ignore where
the monitor went haywire in the middle for about 30 seconds. I peaked
out around 190 and still felt pretty good at the end. Nowhere near the
200s I used to hit occasionally.
------------------
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DavidD
Cool Runner |
posted Oct-03-2007 08:29 PM
quote:
Originally posted by leitnerj:
Ok, in the category of "This MAF stuff is only for people running
ultras, and slow ones at that" I thought I'd give my race result
from today.
Good job leitnerj.
I'm amazed that there are people referring to aerobic base training as something ultra runners do. I recall Mark Allen running a sub 30-minute 10K after base building. That's not bad. Lorraine Moller had some great short races, as did Mike Pigg. I recall a long list of other 'short' distance runners often performing their best races off base.
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leitnerj
Cool Runner |
posted Oct-03-2007 08:46 PM
quote:
Originally posted by DavidD:
Good job leitnerj.I'm amazed that there are people referring to aerobic base training as something ultra runners do. I recall Mark Allen running a sub 30-minute 10K after base building. That's not bad. Lorraine Moller had some great short races, as did Mike Pigg. I recall a long list of other 'short' distance runners often performing their best races off base.
There are certain posters who say that over and over again
without any basis at all. They'll give guidance to many that
this is an approach that is not likely to work for a typical
person, or if it does, it would only be for a few long distances.
Then if I bring up myself, they emphasize how I'm an
experiment of one. It makes me feel so special.
------------------
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wanderingoutlaw
Cool Runner |
posted Oct-04-2007 06:19 AM
Let me share my MAF success:Last year (my first year of running) I ran a 10k during my training for a November marathon which I gallowalked. I finished the 10k around 57:30 and was totally spent. I've been MAF training since January 1--only running fast during one 4-mile and two 5k races. I've built up to 30-40 miles a week. This past Saturday I ran a 10k--different one, but I'd judge the courses as relatively equal. This course had an overall net elevation gain of a couple hundred feet but contained a couple of nice downhill slopes. Without the aid of my heart rate monitor, which has gone wacky, I tried to maintain an even pace. I ran relatively easy on the uphills and was able to blaze down the downslopes. Felt great to pass so many runners on the way down the hills, when I could noticeably see them switching to resting on the downs. Finished in 52:15--over a 5 minute PR--and didn't feel as spent, so I probably could have run a little faster. My pace matches what my 5k pace has been, so I likely could have easily set a 5k PR also. So props to the MAF method for helping my aerobic capacity increase. I'll be running my first half-marathon in three weeks, so we'll see how well my pace extends. John ------------------
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wanderingoutlaw
Cool Runner |
posted Oct-04-2007 06:24 AM
A quick question. My heart rate monitor is not working properly and I'll be sending it in to get looked at (as it's still under warranty). Any advice on training without a hrm for a (hopefully) short time?Thanks,
John ------------------
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breger1
Cool Runner |
posted Oct-04-2007 06:32 AM
Just run by feel John. You've been training with an HRM for awhile so you know what the pace(s) feel like. I did that recently when my HRM died and it worked fine.Bill ------------------
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henrikker
Member |
posted Oct-04-2007 10:03 AM
A few questions after todays workout.Did the following: (MAF 151) About 10 min fast pace walk warm up, then, Mile 1: 12.30(Fast walk with a little running 15/85 run/walk)
Ave HR: 148 Mile 2: 12.33(Only fast walking)
Ave HR: 149 Mile 3: 12.56(Only walking)
Ave HR: 149 Mile 4: 13.14(More running, and slower walking in between)
Ave HR: 148 Mile 5: 13.29(Ran every minut until beep, then slower walk 2,5 min running over the mile)
Ave HR: 148 Mile 6: 13.09(Only fast walking)
Ave HR: 148 I have my beeper on my watch set at 148, so when it starts beeping, I will start walking and not have my HR go over 151. My question is this:
What is better: To walk the fast pace, but then have the HRso high that there wont be much running (if any) like on mile 2+3 or to run, and then walk slower when the beep comes.. Let the HR lower to 145-146 and then run it back up to beeping.. Like I did on mile 4+5 Thank YOu..
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mmoonhead
Cool Runner |
posted Oct-04-2007 12:14 PM
Okay, I'm serious this time - I've figured if I'm doing my second marathon early next year, I'm going to do it right. I'm seriously going to invest in this Maff training, because I know my aerobic engine isn't up to snuff. (I've only delved into this for 2-3 weeks max before)My question has to do with the HRM. Is it normal to have it swing so wildly between readings, at least in the beginning? I notice as I get between a 12-13 min pace it swings about 20+ beats above my calculated HR (144) and then when I slow down it shoots 20+ beats below. I've eliminated the HRM being goofy - this is my third HRM I've used and have gotten the same results each time. Also, should I do a TM test, or is it more trouble than its worth? ------------------
Remember, no matter where you go, there you are. A Little About Me
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DavidD
Cool Runner |
posted Oct-04-2007 02:43 PM
quote:
Originally posted by mmoonhead:
...Also, should I do a TM test, or is it more trouble than its worth?
As discussed here often, a treadmill test that measures, among other things, RQ (fat and sugar burning at specific heart rates) is a great test if it's done properly, and you get some intelligent feedback on what it means and how to adjust training. Maffetone's 180 formula gets you very similar information regarding effective training heart rate to build aerobic function and increase fat burning.
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leitnerj
Cool Runner |
posted Oct-04-2007 07:58 PM
quote:
Originally posted by breger1:
Just run by feel John. You've been training with an HRM for awhile so you know what the pace(s) feel like. I did that recently when my HRM died and it worked fine.Bill
Yeah, I agree. You'll be safe. You'll probably find yourself running
a little bit slower than usual if you're anything like me. The key is
that by now (shown by your PR), you know what moderate training
pace really means.
------------------
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leitnerj
Cool Runner |
posted Oct-04-2007 08:02 PM
quote:
Originally posted by henrikker:
My question is this:
What is better: To walk the fast pace, but then have the HRso high that there wont be much running (if any) like on mile 2+3 or to run, and then walk slower when the beep comes.. Let the HR lower to 145-146 and then run it back up to beeping.. Like I did on mile 4+5Thank YOu..
It's all personal preference. My approach was just to "run" but
cut my pace way back. Be careful not to get too obsessed with
checking your status every day. It will drive you crazy and burn
you out. ------------------
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PB2
Cool Runner |
posted Oct-04-2007 08:42 PM
for those interested, we're starting maffetone's two week test over at the carbo canteen. i mention it here because it sometimes improves running speed by improving fat burning.
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runbei
Cool Runner |
posted Oct-05-2007 12:54 AM
quote:
Originally posted by DavidD:
Good job leitnerj.I'm amazed that there are people referring to aerobic base training as something ultra runners do. I recall Mark Allen running a sub 30-minute 10K after base building. That's not bad. Lorraine Moller had some great short races, as did Mike Pigg. I recall a long list of other 'short' distance runners often performing their best races off base.
Yeah, and Peter Snell was very surprised that he could run near a four-minute mile after doing no speedwork whatever, just 12 weeks of base building with the Arthur Lydiard group. In an interview a couple of years ago, Snell said the long runs with the group were done at "medium pace, not jogging." For those world-class runners, that meant 7:00 at the start of the endurance phases, and 6:00 toward the end (for 23 miles). ------------------
George Beinhorn
www.fitnessintuition.com
The wisdom of the heart
in exercise and sports training
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runbei
Cool Runner |
posted Oct-05-2007 01:00 AM
I'd be very interested to hear from older runners - I'm 65 - who don't have competitive goals that justify periodized training, but who want to combine endurance and speed. Specifically, I'm doing just one main workout a week, alternating a long, easy run one weekend with hard speedwork the next. Weekdays, I do a couple of very easy 30-minute runs, plus one hard workout at the gym (a la Clarence Bass; see www.cbass.com). I seem to be thriving on the "very hard / very easy" training. My only concern is that the hard running might "erode" the body's store of aerobic enzymes, as I believe Phil Maffetone claims. But, again, I'd rather hear from people who've experienced both ways, than mere theories and conjecture. Any thoughts? Thanks. P.S. A further thought: I'm wondering about the optimal speed/endurance running ratio if you're doing both in the current schedule. Ingrid Kristensen, Bob Deines, and others ran slowly but raced frequently at short distances and thrived. They all believed in long, slow training - but they did the short races, too. Okay, open disclosure, I wrote an article that'll appear in the next Marathon & Beyond, on more or less this same topic ("The Persistence of Long, Slow Distance"). And obviously I still have questions about the details. People's experience speaks much more convincingly than theorizing - a wonderful thing about this thread. And I'm wondering if you can still build endurance and speed if you're an old, low-mileage putz like me who enjoys both and doesn't much care to spend several months running at MAF pace. (Oh, well, just thought I'd ask.)
------------------
George Beinhorn
www.fitnessintuition.com
The wisdom of the heart
in exercise and sports training
[This message has been edited by runbei (edited Oct-05-2007).]
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