posted Jul-07-2007 05:01 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by leitnerj:
Thanks for asking! You caught me in a lie (well, not an intentional
one anyway). It just occurred to me that if the temperature outside
is greater than about 83-85, I will carry water if I'm going more than
about 8 miles (and I rarely run less than that). If I don't, it only takes
about 4 or 5 miles until my heart rate has drifted so high that my pace
slows down by around 2 min/mile. I have found that when my conditioning
is very high, I dehydrate at a much slower rate, but I still dehydrate.
I have returned from runs of 15 miles or more having lost over 15 lbs!
I notice than when I lose about 3% of more of body weight, I hit the point
where my heart rate has drifted so high, I can no longer even think about
running under a MAF target. A few details about dehydration for me:
Last year, I was running my long runs in the summer afternoon in
temps of around 100, to prepare for the Vermont 100. During my
first 100+ run, I carried my 3 liter camelbak. I drained it about 12 miles
in. By about 15 miles, I had slowed to a horrendous putter. Even
after finishing the 3 liters, I was about 15 lbs down when I returned.
It explained a lot!

---

Amen, Jesse. Some people don't realize (or believe?) how much water they can lose when it's hot out. Given some of us lose more than others...no doubt about that.

Today it was....~88 with 55% humidity. I ran 10 miles, entirely on asphalt...very little shade to speak of. I drank 60 to 64 ounces of water/gatorade while running, and was still down 5.6 pounds when I got home. About 13-14 ounces lost per mile, roughly.

Another thing I like about MAF training is that it allows me to run quite a few miles in the heat and be able to recover fairly quickly since I haven't over-exerted myself. Well...today I averaged MAF +2....but I'll take it given the hills and heat. It's humbling though given how much slower my pace was.

IP: Logged

posted Jul-07-2007 05:25 PM               

quote:

---

Originally posted by Docster:
Well...today I averaged MAF +2....but I'll take it given the hills and heat. It's humbling though given how much slower my pace was.

---

Me, too. On all counts. Actually, MAF+3, but I'm not sure the
HRmonitor wasn't giving slightly noisy readings later.

------------------
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MyStuff
Low Heart Rate Training FAQ
My marathons and ultras
My races and reports

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posted Jul-07-2007 09:01 PM            

On marathon race day, I've read that it's okay to "carb up" versus training runs. I know that consuming carbs at certain times before the start of the race an cause your body to NOT want to burn fat. My questions are:

1. How long before the race should I eat breakfast?

2. How long before the race starts is it okay to start drinking gatorade or do a clif shot (or should one wait until the race starts)?

I think I read on the old thread that one should eat breakfast 2-3 hours before the race and not drink gatorade until close to the start of the race, but do not remeber the specifics. Also, any references or explanations of why this timing is important would be helpful (I assume it has something to do with insulin release).

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posted Jul-07-2007 10:04 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by Ace8:
I thought there was a post about carb consumption before a marathon in the old thread- but I could not find it when I just looked so it is probaly easier to just ask here.

On marathon race day, I've read that it's okay to "carb up" versus training runs. I know that consuming carbs at certain times before the start of the race an cause your body to NOT want to burn fat. My questions are:

1. How long before the race should I eat breakfast?

2. How long before the race starts is it okay to start drinking gatorade or do a clif shot (or should one wait until the race starts)?

I think I read on the old thread that one should eat breakfast 2-3 hours before the race and not drink gatorade until close to the start of the race, but do not remeber the specifics. Also, any references or explanations of why this timing is important would be helpful (I assume it has something to do with insulin release).

---

Don't eat closer than 3 hours. I eat 4 hours before. Keep it light.
Then don't take any carbs until at least a half hour into the marathon.
I wait 40 minutes.

--Jimmy

Jog Log
zzzzzzz

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posted Jul-07-2007 10:15 PM            

Life is good, even though the women pushing baby carriages on the bike trail keep yelling "On your right!! Would you like some Vaseline? Your buttcheeks seems a bit fused together..."

The form will return. It will. Oh, god, it will!!!

It's temporary. It's temporary. It's temporary.

AH.

--Jimmy

Current MAF excursion
zzzzzzz

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posted Jul-08-2007 12:12 AM               

I am 15 years old. I run track and have been training steadily for months. (during track season in spring, track workouts as well as tempo runs) I completed my first 1/2 marathon a month or so ago, finishing right at 2 hours.

I have recently begun to run with my 48 yr old father to try to get him in shape. He is interested in losing weight, becoming more fit, and improving his heart health. (NOT racing) He has been running about 3 mi/day for the past 2 wks with me at about 9:30/mi. 6 days/week. otherwise, he has no fitness base of any kind.

I am wondering if MAF running is suitable for us, and if we could still run together. also, any suggestions for getting the old man out there? he hates to run and its rough trying to drag someone who weighs a whole lot more than you do.

HELP, please!

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posted Jul-08-2007 02:05 AM               

quote:

---

Originally posted by irunformiles:
I have a few questions before I get started running this way.

I am 15 years old. I run track and have been training steadily for months. (during track season in spring, track workouts as well as tempo runs) I completed my first 1/2 marathon a month or so ago, finishing right at 2 hours.

I have recently begun to run with my 48 yr old father to try to get him in shape. He is interested in losing weight, becoming more fit, and improving his heart health. (NOT racing) He has been running about 3 mi/day for the past 2 wks with me at about 9:30/mi. 6 days/week. otherwise, he has no fitness base of any kind.

I am wondering if MAF running is suitable for us, and if we could still run together. also, any suggestions for getting the old man out there? he hates to run and its rough trying to drag someone who weighs a whole lot more than you do.

HELP, please!

---

For you, I wouldn't worry about your heart rate. It's likely you can
safely run with him as much as you want. If your father plans to
pick up his mileage, MAF may be a good approach. I think you're
probably the best motivation to get him out there running and perhaps
you can extend one or two of the runs to a longer distance. The
MAF approach may prove to get rid of some of the pain he has running,
but you never know.

------------------
MyRunningLog
MyStuff
Low Heart Rate Training FAQ
My marathons and ultras
My races and reports

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posted Jul-08-2007 06:05 AM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by irunformiles:
I have a few questions before I get started running this way.

I am 15 years old. I run track and have been training steadily for months. (during track season in spring, track workouts as well as tempo runs) I completed my first 1/2 marathon a month or so ago, finishing right at 2 hours.

I have recently begun to run with my 48 yr old father to try to get him in shape. He is interested in losing weight, becoming more fit, and improving his heart health. (NOT racing) He has been running about 3 mi/day for the past 2 wks with me at about 9:30/mi. 6 days/week. otherwise, he has no fitness base of any kind.

I am wondering if MAF running is suitable for us, and if we could still run together. also, any suggestions for getting the old man out there? he hates to run and its rough trying to drag someone who weighs a whole lot more than you do.

HELP, please!

---

Amazing that you got him out there with you. Wow. Nice job. In the essence of not wanting to pile on a good thing that is happening, forget the heart rate monitor for now. 9:30 per mile might be too fast though for him (maybe not). If he is training too fast, it could lead to an injury. Listen to his breathing. If you are controlling the pace, try to run one that keeps his breathing minimal. He should be able to talk without catching his breath. According to Maffetone, and my own experiences, this isn't the best method, but it will do, and was the only way before the HRM came around, besides stopping and measuring your pulse.

At the heart of Maffetone training is the creation of health first, then fitness. Health and fitness are not the same thing. You can be fit enough to run a marathon personal record, but if you are sick all the time with colds, or have nagging or major injuries, you aren't healthy. Keep in mind that you want your Pop to be healthy first. So, just make sure he's not going anaerobic as best you can.

Keep going!

--Jimmy

MAF Training
zzzzzzz

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posted Jul-08-2007 11:49 AM               

------------------
myspace
Higher Chakra Jewlery

MAF I will not give up!

[This message has been edited by runningforfreedom (edited Jul-08-2007).]

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posted Jul-08-2007 03:51 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by runningforfreedom:
I just wanted to report that todays run was MAJOR progress... 6.5 miles at 16mm avg pace, the first 4 were at 15mm... with minimal blips, and only the last couple of miles were there significant walking... my HR the first few miles stayed at maf -10. to about maf -6 or so, with a few small blips. So I am seeing a bit of improvement. I WILL NOT GIVE UP! Oh and this was in 89% humidity and 79 degrees... I'm thinking that once the weather starts to break, it'll be a lot better improvement. I ran in the am, rather than at night, I think that might have helped, somehow, who knows. I was wearing new shoes also, I'm getting away from stability shoes, and these seemed to be good. I noticed something else today, once the sweat really starts to pour, my HR gets a little easier to manage in the same weather... maybe cause I'm fully warmed up? Not sure, but I'll take it. I need to go inside for a couple runs this week, and see what running out of the weather and sun does for my pace.

---

Congrats. You will see little leaps forward like this. If you're seeing them in 79º and high humidity, that's awesome. Make suure to log this summer's training runs, so next summer you can really see how you progressed.

When the fall temps come, and the you are running in 45-60º weather, you will see a drop. Your heart isn't dealing with keeping your body cool.
Makes a difference.

--Jimmy

Jog Log
zzzzzzz

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posted Jul-09-2007 08:41 AM            

I am very pleased in how I've been able to build miles and remain injury free. Injuries have been my bugaboo, so staying injury free is no small achievement. In fact, a nagging case of plantar fascitiis has been gradually improving despite an increase in mileage.

Last week was my first week ever where I ran 6 days (!) and I also topped 50 miles for the first time (51.3 miles last week!) with a long run of 18 miles.

As I reported last week, however, I'm growing increasingly concerned about a loss of speed. I am seeing some improvement in my long run pace, but I feel so far away from race pace. In my last marathon training cycle, on relatively low mileage, I ran my long runs around 9:15-9:30 pace and had a marathon race pace of 8:45. Today my long run pace is a full minute slower (10:15-10:30) and I have no idea how I'll be able to run 8:45, let alone see an improvement in race pace. During this weekend's 18 miler, while I did push the pace at the end ... must miles were 10:15-10:30 pace and were at MAF-12 at the beginning and climbed to MAF-4 ... the last couple of miles were at sub-10:00 and HR climbed above MAF.

I'll be running the Marine Corps Marathon Oct. 28th. That's 16 weeks away. Is now the time to begin introducing speed work or jump into a different training program that uses speed work, e.g., Pfitzinger? I plan to hit a max mileage of 55-60 miles per week.

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posted Jul-09-2007 09:26 AM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by Who Dey:
I just finished my 10th week of LHR training.

I am very pleased in how I've been able to build miles and remain injury free. Injuries have been my bugaboo, so staying injury free is no small achievement. In fact, a nagging case of plantar fascitiis has been gradually improving despite an increase in mileage.

Last week was my first week ever where I ran 6 days (!) and I also topped 50 miles for the first time (51.3 miles last week!) with a long run of 18 miles.

As I reported last week, however, I'm growing increasingly concerned about a loss of speed. I am seeing some improvement in my long run pace, but I feel so far away from race pace. In my last marathon training cycle, on relatively low mileage, I ran my long runs around 9:15-9:30 pace and had a marathon race pace of 8:45. Today my long run pace is a full minute slower (10:15-10:30) and I have no idea how I'll be able to run 8:45, let alone see an improvement in race pace. During this weekend's 18 miler, while I did push the pace at the end ... must miles were 10:15-10:30 pace and were at MAF-12 at the beginning and climbed to MAF-4 ... the last couple of miles were at sub-10:00 and HR climbed above MAF.

I'll be running the Marine Corps Marathon Oct. 28th. That's 16 weeks away. Is now the time to begin introducing speed work or jump into a different training program that uses speed work, e.g., Pfitzinger? I plan to hit a max mileage of 55-60 miles per week.

---

First, congrats on your progress in volume and health.
Secondly, what are your goals for yourself? What is important right now?

Just a reminder about why you are currently feeling better, the PF is healing, and you are able to create HEALTH. The program you are using!
To stray away now, because of a worry about your time performance in the race, might not be in support of remaining healthy.

You might consider sticking with the program all the way to the marathon, throwing a few dream race pace miles every week in the last 6 weeks (no more than 10% of total mileage), either at the end of a few runs, or as a 4-6 miler (after a warm-up of 20 minutes or so). Keeping everything else under MAF.

Or not.

I believe if you maintain your health and keep working your aerobic system, you'll exceed your dreams, and create the healthy state you may or may not be seeking.

A 10:15 long run pace under MAF is pretty darn good at this point. It's summer. 8:45 will be a breeze. With that pace, and with the marathon so far off, I believe you could get closer to 8:00--if you keep developing the fat-burning. If not the marathon coming up, in a future one.

Keep going! Create health! It is the heart of this program.

--Jimmy

Jog Log
zzzzzzz

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posted Jul-09-2007 09:40 AM            

While I certainly have the desire to speed up, I also know, as you pointed out, that I'm where I'm at because I've followed LHR training. Speed work is stressful, so I would be very cautious about introducing it into my training. Probably the only speed work I would do would be conservative tempo runs.

I didn't post this, but a 8:00 pace would be sublime as it would get me to Boston. I keep telling myself to not get greedy, but I do dream ...

I can trust that there will be benefits of an improved aerobic system and gains that will come from running higher mileage. I'm just confused about how to translate LHR training performance to race goals. If one does no speed work, but only "slow work", how does one set race goals?

As far as my MAF pace being good for summer running ... getting up at 4:45 am to get my long runs in might have something to do with it! I hate getting up early, but when it's hot it's the only alternative.

IP: Logged

posted Jul-09-2007 09:45 AM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by Who Dey:
I just finished my 10th week of LHR training.

I am very pleased in how I've been able to build miles and remain injury free. Injuries have been my bugaboo, so staying injury free is no small achievement. In fact, a nagging case of plantar fascitiis has been gradually improving despite an increase in mileage.

Last week was my first week ever where I ran 6 days (!) and I also topped 50 miles for the first time (51.3 miles last week!) with a long run of 18 miles.

As I reported last week, however, I'm growing increasingly concerned about a loss of speed. I am seeing some improvement in my long run pace, but I feel so far away from race pace. In my last marathon training cycle, on relatively low mileage, I ran my long runs around 9:15-9:30 pace and had a marathon race pace of 8:45. Today my long run pace is a full minute slower (10:15-10:30) and I have no idea how I'll be able to run 8:45, let alone see an improvement in race pace. During this weekend's 18 miler, while I did push the pace at the end ... must miles were 10:15-10:30 pace and were at MAF-12 at the beginning and climbed to MAF-4 ... the last couple of miles were at sub-10:00 and HR climbed above MAF.

I'll be running the Marine Corps Marathon Oct. 28th. That's 16 weeks away. Is now the time to begin introducing speed work or jump into a different training program that uses speed work, e.g., Pfitzinger? I plan to hit a max mileage of 55-60 miles per week.

---

Interesting. While MAF training earlier this year, my long run pace was 9:15 or so, and my marathon pace was 8:10. If you were running your long runs 30-45 seconds faster than your marathon pace, you might have been running them a bit too hard overall.

I'm currently doing most of my runs around 8:45 to 9:20 depending on the heat, etc. My marathon goal pace is 7:30 in October. It seems drastically different, but I know when I'm back in cooler temps my pace will drop considerably.

I don't know what the temps are when you are running, but keep in mind the warmer weather can really make a dent in your pace. It's humbling. I've been running up to a minute slower (if not mroe), and I'm fairly acclimatized to the heat at this point. It's also harder to maintain that pace (heart rate creep) over time compared to when it's cooler. Hang in there...I don't seen any problem with your paces to be honest.

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posted Jul-09-2007 09:57 AM            

During my last marathon cycle I became injured towards the end and my training suffered considerably. I was very surprised that I could salvage a 8:45 pace. I typically trained at about 60 sec over marathon pace, so I think I was on track to run 8:30 or so prior to getting injured.

Now I'm running at what might be 2 minutes over marathon pace and that is difficult to wrap my mind around. I live in Cincinnnati, so the summer is not as brutal as in some places, but we get our share of heat and humidity (it's supposed to hit 93 today).

Do you incorporate any speed work into your training or do you subsist entirely on <MAF running? If you do use speed work, when do you begin to use it?

I apologize if these questions have been asked and answered before. As I make my way MAFing along, new questions come to mind as I progress.

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posted Jul-09-2007 10:19 AM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by Who Dey:
Thanks Jimmy.

While I certainly have the desire to speed up, I also know, as you pointed out, that I'm where I'm at because I've followed LHR training. Speed work is stressful, so I would be very cautious about introducing it into my training. Probably the only speed work I would do would be conservative tempo runs.

I didn't post this, but a 8:00 pace would be sublime as it would get me to Boston. I keep telling myself to not get greedy, but I do dream ...

I can trust that there will be benefits of an improved aerobic system and gains that will come from running higher mileage. I'm just confused about how to translate LHR training performance to race goals. If one does no speed work, but only "slow work", how does one set race goals?

As far as my MAF pace being good for summer running ... getting up at 4:45 am to get my long runs in might have something to do with it! I hate getting up early, but when it's hot it's the only alternative.

---

When you get closer to the marathon, try a few 5-6 mile marathon race-pace tempo runs, in separate weeks, run keeping your HR at 75% MHR. Do it like an MAF test, trying to stay at that HR, slowing down if necessary. The ave. pace you achieve will give you a ballpark marathon pace. I base that on my own HR info from a marathon. I find that the first 6-7 miles, I'm running an average HR of 75-78% HRR. I keep very even paces, with negative split in the back 13.1

Also, in Parker's HRM Training For The Compleat Idiot, he recommends an average HR of 75% HRR in marathons. I'll average higher than that in marathons. About 83% HRR.

--Jimmy

MAF log
zzzzzzz

[This message has been edited by jjwaverly42 (edited Jul-09-2007).]

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posted Jul-09-2007 03:51 PM               

He is working on a new version of Training and Eating for Endurance as one book that would come out the end of the year. I've gotten him to put up some articles and things on his website, and he said more will be added regarding training, racing and eating.

We talked about a research project that would measure fat burning, pace changes and heart rate (using the 180 formula) with a large group of runners, and a control. Anyone in academia interested in getting involved? I think I'm ready to leave my post so I won't have the students that would "volunteer" for such a study, nor the undergrad and post docs that would do much of the work.

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posted Jul-09-2007 04:09 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by DavidD:
Hi, just an update on seeing Dr. Phil at one of his last music performances before his summer tour. We've talked a few times and emailed since then. He is open to appearing on this Cool Running forum if it is well organized. He also suggested doing something with Mark Allen.

He is working on a new version of Training and Eating for Endurance as one book that would come out the end of the year. I've gotten him to put up some articles and things on his website, and he said more will be added regarding training, racing and eating.

We talked about a research project that would measure fat burning, pace changes and heart rate (using the 180 formula) with a large group of runners, and a control. Anyone in academia interested in getting involved? I think I'm ready to leave my post so I won't have the students that would "volunteer" for such a study, nor the undergrad and post docs that would do much of the work.

---

Wow. I was aware of Phil Maffetone, the songwriter-singer, but I didn't know he was Dr. Phil as well. I think when I first saw his website, there wasn't a connection. Cool. He ain't bad. His songs make me want to burn sugar.

--Jimmy

MAF carp
zzzzzzz

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posted Jul-09-2007 06:32 PM            

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posted Jul-09-2007 06:42 PM               

quote:

---

Originally posted by dfcameron:
FWIW, I average about 85% in marathons (that I race) as well. I do many of my long training runs at 75%, which is below MAF. Its inconceivable to me that one's average marathon race pace HR would be at or below MAF.

---

Exactly. One's best marathon heart rate should be just a few heart
beats below anaerobic threshold, perhaps 97% of AT. MAF HR
should be about 80-85% AT. My MAF HR: 148. My best marathon
HR: 172. My AT: about 177.

------------------
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Low Heart Rate Training FAQ
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posted Jul-09-2007 07:22 PM               

quote:

---

Originally posted by jjwaverly42:
Wow. I was aware of Phil Maffetone, the songwriter-singer, but I didn't know he was Dr. Phil as well. I think when I first saw his website, there wasn't a connection. Cool. He ain't bad. His songs make me want to burn sugar.

--Jimmy

MAF carp
zzzzzzz

---

His music is incredible. And he's got guys from the Red Hot Chili Peppers, AudioSlave and other great musicians playing on his album.

I learned about his music through an article on 'music therapy and sports medicine' (which I keep forgetting to ask him about) -- does anyone have a copy by chance?

I was amazed since I've been doing the MAF stuff since the early 80s.

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posted Jul-09-2007 11:34 PM               

Mountain biking is much more anaroebic than road biking. It is next to impossible to keep you heart rate below MAF. Anyone here who has tried it, knows exactly what I'm talking about. If I ride at a moderate pace, it's not unusual for my HR to reach 160 - 170 on a resonably tough climb. When I reach an easier portion of a trail, it might dip down to 130. On a typical 1 to 1 1/2 hour ride, my average HR will be about 142-145, with several of these extreme ups and downs.

My question is, do you believe that my rapid improvement is strictly due to the added training volume that the mountain biking has provided? Or, is it due to the fact that my aerobic system is being tested in a way that it had not previously? Keep in mind, I do try to keep my heart rate under MAF on the bike.

Thanks.

bdags

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posted Jul-10-2007 12:56 AM            

whodey - I'm shooting for sub 3:30 at impending age 45 (which would now be a Boston qualifier). I rarely train at faster than 8:40 min/mi. In this heat, its closer to 9:30 min/mi. In April, I was doing 9:00 min/mi. I still believe if I can keep up the base I can do sub-3:30 (8:00 min/mi) but it won't be easy, and I need some "higher than MAF runs" - but limited - maybe once every 10 days.

Its better to err on running a lot of stuff at MAF or below with only occasional and sparing faster than MAF runs.

Frank Shorter commented that 86% of his runs were at 6:30 min/mi pace or slower in his biography. I guarantee you that given he could run a 5:00 min/mi pace or faster in a marathon that 6:30 was a comfortable MAF or slower for Shorter.

Dave
(who is a huge supporter of what Jesse espouses)

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posted Jul-10-2007 06:22 AM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by Who Dey:
I just finished my 10th week of LHR training.

I am very pleased in how I've been able to build miles and remain injury free. Injuries have been my bugaboo, so staying injury free is no small achievement. In fact, a nagging case of plantar fascitiis has been gradually improving despite an increase in mileage.

Last week was my first week ever where I ran 6 days (!) and I also topped 50 miles for the first time (51.3 miles last week!) with a long run of 18 miles.

As I reported last week, however, I'm growing increasingly concerned about a loss of speed. I am seeing some improvement in my long run pace, but I feel so far away from race pace. In my last marathon training cycle, on relatively low mileage, I ran my long runs around 9:15-9:30 pace and had a marathon race pace of 8:45. Today my long run pace is a full minute slower (10:15-10:30) and I have no idea how I'll be able to run 8:45, let alone see an improvement in race pace. During this weekend's 18 miler, while I did push the pace at the end ... must miles were 10:15-10:30 pace and were at MAF-12 at the beginning and climbed to MAF-4 ... the last couple of miles were at sub-10:00 and HR climbed above MAF.

I'll be running the Marine Corps Marathon Oct. 28th. That's 16 weeks away. Is now the time to begin introducing speed work or jump into a different training program that uses speed work, e.g., Pfitzinger? I plan to hit a max mileage of 55-60 miles per week.

---

WhoDay -
It looks like you are making good progress. Can you tell me what was your initial pace when you started LHR running?

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posted Jul-10-2007 06:44 AM            

My only speed work has been a bunch of summer races at local parks. I've run a 49:42 10k, 22:17 5k and 16:50 4k (6:46mpm). I have reached my max (what I think is my max, 185) in the 5k and 4k. The 4k was yesterday and was 83F with a dewpoint of 68F, so not your best racing conditions, but the race was short enough.

I am about 40 seconds behind where I was last year at this time (and last year I did not take over 3 months off), so I am pleased with the progress, since I am not running a fall marathon I will gradually build up the mileage, probably waiting for the cooler fall to bump the mileage up past 50mpw+.

Last year I ran a 3:06 marathon in November, I have a half marathon 3 weeks from Sunday.

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