posted Oct-02-2007 01:46 PM               

quote:

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Originally posted by jjwaverly42:
Again, I'll reiterate, if you can't keep under your MAF without walking, then you need the training or some aerobic base program that is similar. You are in sorry aerobic shape. Nothing wrong with that. "Sorry shape" is completely temporary--if you want it to be.
--Jimmy

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This is an important point - if you're that slow at your aerobic HR, you are in serious need of building your aerobic system. Another part of it is your 6:16 pace. Look at that as a max anaerobic effort of sorts, and the slow MAF pace as a max aerobic pace. Huge gap which to me indicates a dangerous situation. The remedy is building a great base, however long it takes. You'll still have your anaerobic speed waiting.

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posted Oct-02-2007 02:02 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by henrikker:
Avg HR is

Mile 1: 146
Mile 2: 147
Mile 3: 145
Mile 4: 173 (max 181, there was a, very, little climb)

My MAF is 151..

The first 2 miles I ran up to 148 (watch alarm), then walk it down to around 145, and start running again.

mile 3 was more constant since I was walking.

[This message has been edited by henrikker (edited Oct-02-2007).]

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Sorry. Another question. Do you know your Max HR? What's the max you've seen (and what were you doing), if you remember?

Regardless, the other's are right. If you can run 6:16 at 173, but are 13+ min/mi at 145, then you're probably in poor aerobic shape and need more mileage more than you need fast running.

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posted Oct-02-2007 02:11 PM               

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posted Oct-02-2007 02:27 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by DavidD:
Will a cup or two of coffee raise one's max HR?

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If MHR=Max Happiness Rating, then yes.

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posted Oct-02-2007 02:38 PM               

Thank you for all you responses. I hope I dont come out to negative. I am just frustrated.

My max is around 192. Measured after intense interval training for badminton (not the garden kind) and a finishing uphill sprint.

Not that it makes much difference, but I have made a type error.. Last mile was 6.26. Not 6.16.

My poor ability to do long comfortable runs at a fairly low HR is the very reason I have, sort of, started on this program. And I will stay on it until I can at least run 11 mpm below 151.. I hope.

Looking through the thread, I can see that a few have had the same problem as me. People saying they "run" 15 mpm must also be walking sometimes. SO that is good for me.. Seeing that others has to walk to, and that they have improved and are now able to run all the way.

All this beeing said.. I did 2 runs about 3-4 weeks ago below 151 og 7-8 miles. I didnt need to walk then. And I LOVED that sort of training. I felt really good afterwards..

So again.. I will try and do this and not look back until xmas.. Or at least dec 1st..:-).

I will probably be in here again tomorrow.. Complaning. Sorry about that.. Has to do it somewhere, and I promise I will be the first to shout it our to the world in nothing by positive words, when I see the first effects.. Until then.. Bare with me..

Again.. Sorry about the spelling.. English is not my first language.

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posted Oct-02-2007 03:23 PM            

You can run that slow. It's just a matter of deciding you want to.

Good luck with it, if you do decide to stick with it.

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posted Oct-02-2007 03:39 PM               

quote:

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Originally posted by henrikker:
Looking through the thread, I can see that a few have had the same problem as me. People saying they "run" 15 mpm must also be walking sometimes. SO that is good for me.. Seeing that others has to walk to, and that they have improved and are now able to run all the way.

So again.. I will try and do this and not look back until xmas.. Or at least dec 1st..:-).

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I think more of us than not have had to walk. Some of us have had to do a LOT of walking. Heck- I've had some horrible runs where I can barely run 10 steps before having to walk again. And yes- it is really, really frustrating, but I firmly believe its worth it. All I can say is- welcome to the club!!!

If I were you, I would definitely commit to MAF training until at LEAST Christmas (not just Dec. 1). Significant progress may not be seen until the 12 week mark, so if you really want to give this a shot (and it sounds to me like you NEED to), keep at it until the end of the year, and re-evaluate then.

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ME!

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posted Oct-02-2007 03:44 PM               

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posted Oct-02-2007 05:01 PM               

quote:

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Originally posted by Leadfeet:
On question for anyone, Ive been training MAF for about 10 weeks now, I tested the waters on a race this past Sunday. I used to be able to reach a max HR of 203 before the 10 weeks of MAF training. For some reason I could only go a max HR of 186 BPM. I could recover much quickly and my run was faster than 10 weeks ago, but is this normal?

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You've been training 10 weeks at a low HR and you raced faster at a lower max HR? If yes, this is how it should work.

I don't think the max HR issue is significant (the reason for my post above).

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posted Oct-02-2007 05:02 PM               

Just wanted to introduce myself. I'm based in the UK :-)

I found Jesse's FAQ and he encouraged me to visit this thread - I've just waded through it. Some fab stuff and some great people (and a few odd balls - you know who you are ;-).

So, I'm embarking on a program of LHR training. Why? I've been mad enough to sign up for an Ironman next year. I've done 15 years of running, not too seriously, a few HMs and a few sprint tris. So, my goal is to essentially complete the IM next year and do so without doing it on my arse (avoiding the death march at the end to quote the FAQ).

I'm following Don Fink's book "beIRONfit" and he calls for a period of base training at rate higher than MAF (probably 140 for me; perhaps I'm being too honest, but I don't see any real danger in going a few beats lower?). I'm 40 just, BTW. I've got reasonable anaerobic strength, but poor aerobic I suspect.

I've got until just before Christmas before the 30 week program kicks in, but I think a good period of meta-base base building might serve my goal very well. So, I'm proceeding the 30 week program with a 10 week phase of MAF training (started this week).

So, I've been thinking about a few things and wonder what the collective might have to say, if you would be so kind (even though some bike related stuff):

- is 140 HR reasonable for my meta-base bike sessions also?
- having done a bike session at 145, I felt cold and famished afterwards; a sign that I really need to stick to the honest 140 (normally, I'd be cooked like a kipper (but still hungry) at my 170)?
- should I start the real base training and stick to 140 or perhaps move to the 160 for runs (and 144 for bikes) that Don calls for?

Just a few musings:
- I wonder how I tell my dog we are now maffing at 140? He definitely thinks something is wrong.
- I can't run with my buddies now; they are anaerobic freaks and can't cope with me at 160 never mind 140 running

Random thoughts:
- foam rollers; the best thing on the planet if you've got any aches or want to value-added injury-free running for life

MarcP

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posted Oct-02-2007 05:24 PM               

I think doggie will get used to it, but it is definitely a tough thing
with those training partners! Unless you have a training partner
that's a good bit slower than you are, you may really have a
difficult time with this approach. Although, if you spend a few
months with lonely basebuilding, you may be back up with
your current training buddies, but at 20-30 beats lower heart rate.

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Low Heart Rate Training FAQ
My marathons and ultras
My races and reports

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posted Oct-02-2007 05:27 PM               

quote:

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Originally posted by Leadfeet:
On question for anyone, Ive been training MAF for about 10 weeks now, I tested the waters on a race this past Sunday. I used to be able to reach a max HR of 203 before the 10 weeks of MAF training. For some reason I could only go a max HR of 186 BPM. I could recover much quickly and my run was faster than 10 weeks ago, but is this normal?

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I certainly agree with David's response, but I can add that I used to
frequently get into the 190s and 200s in races, but rarely do I get
beyond about 185 anymore. I think it's also because I've found that
now my legs give out before my breathing and not the other way around.
I call it progress!

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MyStuff
Low Heart Rate Training FAQ
My marathons and ultras
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posted Oct-02-2007 06:02 PM               

quote:

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Originally posted by leitnerj:
I certainly agree with David's response, but I can add that I used to
frequently get into the 190s and 200s in races, but rarely do I get
beyond about 185 anymore. I think it's also because I've found that
now my legs give out before my breathing and not the other way around.
I call it progress!

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A great observation. I recall Maffetone writing about phases that one goes through during aerobic training (muscles, diaphragm, etc.), so you feel it in your legs, breathing and other aspects in different stages.

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posted Oct-02-2007 07:20 PM            

Mile 1: 146
Mile 2: 147
Mile 3: 145
Mile 4: 173 (max 181, there was a, very, little climb)

My MAF is 151..

Just curious from a newbie perspective, but if your stated MAX HR 181 and MAF HR 151 are correct isn't this approx 83 percent and hence a little high for aerobic work?

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posted Oct-02-2007 07:41 PM               

quote:

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Originally posted by lowgear1:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by henrikker:
[B]Avg HR is

Mile 1: 146
Mile 2: 147
Mile 3: 145
Mile 4: 173 (max 181, there was a, very, little climb)

My MAF is 151..

Just curious from a newbie perspective, but if your stated MAX HR 181 and MAF HR 151 are correct isn't this approx 83 percent and hence a little high for aerobic work?

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An astute observation. If henrikker is indeed 24 or 29 (likely choices
to give a MAF of 151), then he would be in the low max heart rate
category, at which point, I would recommend he use Hadd's guidelines
(which would without a doubt give a much lower recommendation.)

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MyStuff
Low Heart Rate Training FAQ
My marathons and ultras
My races and reports

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posted Oct-02-2007 07:48 PM               

The last mile was done at a much to high HR.. I should be below 151..

I am a newbie myself, and just lose patience sometimes, but reading a few posts further up is what motivetes me..

Being able to run with my frends, but at 20 bpm lower.

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posted Oct-03-2007 01:35 AM               

So here's my question, I have a HM coming up on Thanksgiving in Atlanta. I won't be back in the US till the end of Nov, so I don't have access to any good hills. The only one I have is about 100m long and about a 30 degree incline. I'd like to train my turnover and speed for a few weeks before the race to see if i can squeeze a few extra seconds out of my miles. Are tempo runs ala Hadd the best idea at this point or do I just not have enough time to worry about getting faster?

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posted Oct-03-2007 06:54 AM               

quote:

---

Originally posted by leitnerj:
Hi again, Marc! Well, there are many approaches other
than Maffetone's (some of which are described here) that may
recommend higher heart rates. Some may get you there faster,
some may get you there slower, and some may never get you
"there." Generally, I believe in the approach that is the most
conservatively low on heart rate, but there are others in this
thread that are successful on some higher stuff. The tidbits
that you provide seem to point to the fact that you may want
to stick to the lower value. Maffetone's (and probably the other
similar ones) approach relies on running at a low enough
respiratory quotient, such that you are burning more fat
than carb for fuel. The risk of running too high is that you may
never really train yourself to use fat efficiently for fuel and
you'll miss out on the entire training effect.

I think doggie will get used to it, but it is definitely a tough thing
with those training partners! Unless you have a training partner
that's a good bit slower than you are, you may really have a
difficult time with this approach. Although, if you spend a few
months with lonely basebuilding, you may be back up with
your current training buddies, but at 20-30 beats lower heart rate.

---

Hi Jesse,

So, I'm going to stick with 140 and see how I get on. Even at the 145, I was luvin it. I'm fortunate enough to be able to 'hide' in the garage where I have a running machine and my turbo trainer set up so nobody can see me 'wog'. I'm trying to get used to the triathlon schedule, even though the volume is currently quite low and the intensity is now even lower!

Does anybody else use MAF principles for triathlon? Any observations/learnings for me to consider here?

I obviously know/get the idea of not eating carbs before (apart from being a Brit and having a cup of tea with a small spoon of sugar an hour or so before), but what about post training eating - is there any MAF guidance about what might be detrimental to the MAF effect?

Another observation, and I think people have mentioned this before - about 30 mins in to training, I notice my HR notch up a little and become a little erratic (although this effect is diminishing slightly with each session). I wonder what's going on here? I remember hearing from years ago that "you have to do >30 mins exercise to get in to fat burning mode".

Catwoman (hi, BTW) mentioned about doing MAF testing. How do you actually note the time of each mile - do you stop and write it down or is it a function of your watch? I wonder how I'll do this on my treadmill (for consistency).

MarcP

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posted Oct-03-2007 07:03 AM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by KSC:
Alright Mr Leitner, I've been doing MAF training for a little over 2 months now and have gained a coupled seconds of improvement. My times made sort of a J curve, they fell off at first they began to improve and surpassed the point they were at when I started.

So here's my question, I have a HM coming up on Thanksgiving in Atlanta. I won't be back in the US till the end of Nov, so I don't have access to any good hills. The only one I have is about 100m long and about a 30 degree incline. I'd like to train my turnover and speed for a few weeks before the race to see if i can squeeze a few extra seconds out of my miles. Are tempo runs ala Hadd the best idea at this point or do I just not have enough time to worry about getting faster?

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I'm not Jesse, but I do have a signed copy of his book that I used to get me a wife.

I just want to suggest and remind that doing speedwork is part of MAF training--there is an anaerobic phase. You've put in a base period for a big race, and doing some tempo runs is perfectly fine to stimulate turnover. I suggest that you try a race pace run for 3-6 miles, and maybe a lactate threshold run, or some Fartlek, not exceeding 90% MHR. One a week, and no more than two.

Good luck. Keep going!

--Jimmy

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posted Oct-03-2007 07:17 AM            

quote:

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Originally posted by Leadfeet:
On question for anyone, Ive been training MAF for about 10 weeks now, I tested the waters on a race this past Sunday. I used to be able to reach a max HR of 203 before the 10 weeks of MAF training. For some reason I could only go a max HR of 186 BPM. I could recover much quickly and my run was faster than 10 weeks ago, but is this normal?

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It certainly doesn't sound abnormal. When I first started running, I hit 199 max HR and I thought I was going to die. Now that I average 50+ miles per week and have some races under my belt, I've found that it's harder for me to get to a point where I actually hit 199 or higher. It has to be at the end of a 5K race for the most part.

Basically, as your endurance gets stronger, I think it's harder to hit your max HR, since your body can sustain greater efforts for longer durations. In other words, you have to work harder to get that HR up, and to hit max (or very close to it) takes a great deal of exertion, perphaps for several minutes.

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posted Oct-03-2007 07:19 AM            

quote:

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Originally posted by jjwaverly42:
Sucks, huh?

I've been there. It eventually took me to a 3:22 marathon. Not the best in the world, but it got me back to Boston at age 46.

If you have to walk at 151 HR, then you need this program. Your aerobic system is nill. If you take your time, build mileage by about 5-10% per week, cutting back for a rest week every 4th week, and obeying good recovery rules like hard/ easy day, you will see progress, and stay healthy as well.

Good luck!

--Jimmy

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profile

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Good advice, but I have to laugh at hard/easy days when we can't run more than 150 steps without walking! I don't think we can work hard days in until we can at least run a complete "run."

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posted Oct-03-2007 07:34 AM            

"once you've built sufficient aerobic function, your body may be ready to add anaerobic work. I say 'may' because many endurance athletes can often bypass this part of training, and rely instead on racing to get all the anaerobic stimulation necessary...

....The main purpose of anaerobic training is to build the fast-twitch muscle fibers. For endurance athletes, maximum benefits can be achived easily in as short a time as 3-4 weeks...

...anaerobic workouts can be treacherous domain. This risky training is frequently the cause of injuries, fatigue and poor performance.

..keep it simple...keep it short...if the duration of anaerobi workouts is excessive, it can contribute to overtraining and ill health...

..including races, do not exceed 2-3 anaerobic workouts per week. For many athletes, one is sufficient...

...the day before and after should be easy...never do two consecutive days...

...45 minutes maximum...

...do not exceed 90% MHR

...always warm-up and cool down sufficiently...

...Consider Mike Pigg's 1994 season--one of his best. He won most of his races and finished high up in the rest. He did not do any anaerobic work until September, when most of his races were completed."

Basically, he sees a need for it, after you've built your aerobic function for a good period of time. But not much need. A few weeks before race season, and the races themselves will usually suffice.

For a marathon I will do 2-3 race pace runs (these aren't anaerobic, but they get close), and some lactate threshold runs (20-40) minutes in the 6-8 weeks leading into the race. I try not to exceed 10-15% of total weekly mileage at these HR's. The rest is below MAF.

If you haven't read Training for Endurance, I highly recommend it.

Training for Endurance by Phil Maffetone (buy it here)

--Jimmy

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posted Oct-03-2007 07:38 AM            

quote:

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Originally posted by kommish77:
Good advice, but I have to laugh at hard/easy days when we can't run more than 150 steps without walking! I don't think we can work hard days in until we can at least run a complete "run."

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Don't you EVER laugh at hard/easy days!
You know how long it took me to think it up?

I know, it's all easy.
For me, during the aerobic phase, it's high mileage day/low mileage day or rest.

e.g.

5
10
5
10
5
14
rest

--Jimmy

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posted Oct-03-2007 08:31 AM            

quote:

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Originally posted by jjwaverly42:
Don't you EVER laugh at hard/easy days!
You know how long it took me to think it up?

I know, it's all easy.
For me, during the aerobic phase, it's high mileage day/low mileage day or rest.

e.g.

5
10
5
10
5
14
rest

--Jimmy

MAF log

profile

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OK, my mind went directly to effort, instead of mileage, when thinking of hard/easy. What you said makes sense. Sorry for laughing at something that took you so long to think up!

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posted Oct-03-2007 09:24 AM            

quote:

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Originally posted by kommish77:
OK, my mind went directly to effort, instead of mileage, when thinking of hard/easy. What you said makes sense. Sorry for laughing at something that took you so long to think up!

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Apology accepted. It feels good to let it go.

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