posted Sep-29-2007 06:22 PM               

Craig- I live in southwestern Ontario, so we do have our share of humidity (probably nothing like Texas, though!). However, for my MAF tests, I make sure I get up early enough that the temperature and dew point won't have much of an impact on performance. I've tried really hard to keep things consistent from one test to the next. That will be much easier now that fall is here!

Jesse- just wanted to answer a few of your questions. My goal when starting MAF training was basically to get rid of the nagging little injuries I seemed to always be suffering, and hopefully get a little faster in the process.

I ran my first ever HM in May of this year, and was very happy with my time- 1:56:XX. I wasn't particularly happy with the way I felt at the finish line, though. My left knee and hip hurt so badly, I could barely walk, and had trouble negotiating stairs for about a week. I was completely exhausted as well, and couldn't imagive EVER running a full marathon. My average HR for that race was 157, with a max of 176. The first 9 miles of that race was run at a HR of 155 spot on, and it just spiked up to the high 160s, 170s after that. I can now run 13.1 miles without any pain at all, but it takes me more than 2:30 staying at MAF or lower ( haven't raced a HM since I started MAF, though- not sure what my race times would look like right now, or how I would feel at the end).

So, I guess I've accomplished the part of my goal about reducing injuries, but the part about getting faster is tough to judge, given that I haven't raced. The MAF tests are the best indicator I have right now about whether or not my speed has improved, and they aren't looking so good. Now- if the problem was ONLY with my MAF tests, and my every day runs were going really smoothly, I wouldn't be complaining. I know that a MAF test is really just a snapshot of a particular day and time, and many factors can affect how a run goes on any given day. But all of my runs have been steadily deteriorating since the last week of August. It would be a little bit time consuming to provide data from many of my runs over the last few months, but overall, my average pace has generally slowed by 1:30-2:00/mile across all distances, ALL splits on identical routes have been slower (anywhere from 30sec to 2min slower). Also- see my post on page 35 of this thread for another very weird little trend I've been noticing (post was kinda long- don't want to recap it all in this really long post). HR has been tough to control on most runs longer than 5 miles. My resting HR has been erratic, but generally 6-12 beats higher than normal. To be fair to myself, my allergies were absolutely debilitating for about three weeks- couldn't sleep, even called in sick to work one day because I was not functioning at all (so, yes- for a while, they were preventing me from living a normal life). They have been much better in the last 10 days or so, but by no means are they gone. I'm certain that this has had some impact on my performance, but I find myself wondering- how much impact could allergies possibly have- even if they are severe? Am I just being impatient, and will things improve again once my normal allergy season has ended?

Other questions answered: I do everything in my power to stay below MAF on every single run. I am very strict about it. If I drift higher, I immediately walk slowly until I'm back below MAF. I live in a fairly flat area, but do run some hills- not as much as I should, I'm sure. I do speed up significantly on downhills to keep my HR constant. While I was on vacation, I was running a lot of very steep hills, and actually reached a 5:25min/mile pace for a while on one downhill. I really enjoy running downhill- its nice to speed up now and then!

Weather is very erratic here, and I've run in all sorts of conditions. I'm not going to provide a ton of weather data, but believe me- I've looked very closely at how much weather may have impacted me over the last few weeks vs. late July/ early August If anything, based on weather alone, I should be improving right now, not getting worse.

As for my feeling tired- it really is of concern to me, and that's why I'm seeing my doctor this week to rule out anemia, thyroid issues, etc. I am also seeing him to have a lump on my back looked at, and am hoping it is just a cyst or something else that is benign, but I know the possiblity exists that it could be more serious, and could be part of the reason I've been so tired. Lets hope not.

Anyway, thanks for reading the really long post, and any more insight anyone may have would be greatly appreciated!

Thanks, all!

Pam

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posted Sep-29-2007 07:41 PM               

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posted Sep-29-2007 08:52 PM               

I will try to increase my downhill running as well. My area is fairly flat, but there are some extremely large hills that I've not even attempted yet (not sure why- probably afraid of falling on my face. I have been known to be a little clumsy!), so I'll try some new routes incorporating those hills. The only problem is- I have to get UP these hills first. And they are pretty steep- looks like I'll be doing some walking for a while.

There is a HM right here in town in November. Running it may not be a bad idea to really get an idea of where I am, but I don't want to commit to anything until I'm sure I've got no other health issues holding me back. I'll make that decision within the next month.

Thanks again, and I'll keep you posted.

Pam

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posted Sep-29-2007 09:38 PM               

quote:

---

Originally posted by catwoman73:
Thanks, Jesse. I appreciate the advice. I do plan to continue as is for now. Like I said- I'm really happy with the fact that I'm injury free, and that was my most important goal when I started low HR training. And I figure that if allergies or some other medical problem is at the root of my slow pace, I'll figure that out soon enough. I'll try to keep my frustration in check- not easy for me, as I've never been a very patient person, particularly with myself.

I will try to increase my downhill running as well. My area is fairly flat, but there are some extremely large hills that I've not even attempted yet (not sure why- probably afraid of falling on my face. I have been known to be a little clumsy!), so I'll try some new routes incorporating those hills. The only problem is- I have to get UP these hills first. And they are pretty steep- looks like I'll be doing some walking for a while.

There is a HM right here in town in November. Running it may not be a bad idea to really get an idea of where I am, but I don't want to commit to anything until I'm sure I've got no other health issues holding me back. I'll make that decision within the next month.

Thanks again, and I'll keep you posted.

Pam

---

Indeed, be careful on those downhills - you need to ease your
way into such a thing. I think you may want to run the half
just as a gauge for how things are going.

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posted Sep-30-2007 08:24 AM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by catwoman73:
Thanks for the replies.

Craig- I live in southwestern Ontario, so we do have our share of humidity (probably nothing like Texas, though!). However, for my MAF tests, I make sure I get up early enough that the temperature and dew point won't have much of an impact on performance. I've tried really hard to keep things consistent from one test to the next. That will be much easier now that fall is here!

Jesse- just wanted to answer a few of your questions. My goal when starting MAF training was basically to get rid of the nagging little injuries I seemed to always be suffering, and hopefully get a little faster in the process.

I ran my first ever HM in May of this year, and was very happy with my time- 1:56:XX. I wasn't particularly happy with the way I felt at the finish line, though. My left knee and hip hurt so badly, I could barely walk, and had trouble negotiating stairs for about a week. I was completely exhausted as well, and couldn't imagive EVER running a full marathon. My average HR for that race was 157, with a max of 176. The first 9 miles of that race was run at a HR of 155 spot on, and it just spiked up to the high 160s, 170s after that. I can now run 13.1 miles without any pain at all, but it takes me more than 2:30 staying at MAF or lower ( haven't raced a HM since I started MAF, though- not sure what my race times would look like right now, or how I would feel at the end).

So, I guess I've accomplished the part of my goal about reducing injuries, but the part about getting faster is tough to judge, given that I haven't raced. The MAF tests are the best indicator I have right now about whether or not my speed has improved, and they aren't looking so good. Now- if the problem was ONLY with my MAF tests, and my every day runs were going really smoothly, I wouldn't be complaining. I know that a MAF test is really just a snapshot of a particular day and time, and many factors can affect how a run goes on any given day. But all of my runs have been steadily deteriorating since the last week of August. It would be a little bit time consuming to provide data from many of my runs over the last few months, but overall, my average pace has generally slowed by 1:30-2:00/mile across all distances, ALL splits on identical routes have been slower (anywhere from 30sec to 2min slower). Also- see my post on page 35 of this thread for another very weird little trend I've been noticing (post was kinda long- don't want to recap it all in this really long post). HR has been tough to control on most runs longer than 5 miles. My resting HR has been erratic, but generally 6-12 beats higher than normal. To be fair to myself, my allergies were absolutely debilitating for about three weeks- couldn't sleep, even called in sick to work one day because I was not functioning at all (so, yes- for a while, they were preventing me from living a normal life). They have been much better in the last 10 days or so, but by no means are they gone. I'm certain that this has had some impact on my performance, but I find myself wondering- how much impact could allergies possibly have- even if they are severe? Am I just being impatient, and will things improve again once my normal allergy season has ended?

Other questions answered: I do everything in my power to stay below MAF on every single run. I am very strict about it. If I drift higher, I immediately walk slowly until I'm back below MAF. I live in a fairly flat area, but do run some hills- not as much as I should, I'm sure. I do speed up significantly on downhills to keep my HR constant. While I was on vacation, I was running a lot of very steep hills, and actually reached a 5:25min/mile pace for a while on one downhill. I really enjoy running downhill- its nice to speed up now and then!

Weather is very erratic here, and I've run in all sorts of conditions. I'm not going to provide a ton of weather data, but believe me- I've looked very closely at how much weather may have impacted me over the last few weeks vs. late July/ early August If anything, based on weather alone, I should be improving right now, not getting worse.

As for my feeling tired- it really is of concern to me, and that's why I'm seeing my doctor this week to rule out anemia, thyroid issues, etc. I am also seeing him to have a lump on my back looked at, and am hoping it is just a cyst or something else that is benign, but I know the possiblity exists that it could be more serious, and could be part of the reason I've been so tired. Lets hope not.

Anyway, thanks for reading the really long post, and any more insight anyone may have would be greatly appreciated!

Thanks, all!

Pam

---

What's your weekly mileage base?
Have you been increasing at all?
I always believed that part of endurance training is giving your body something to endure. I have a close friend who does MAF training and never improves, because she keeps her mileage at 12 miles per week.
The important thing in her case is that she is healthy (she's not a racer), and all her nagging injuries disappeared. That was her goal.

--Jimmy

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posted Sep-30-2007 10:41 AM               

quote:

---

Originally posted by jjwaverly42:
What's your weekly mileage base?
Have you been increasing at all?
I always believed that part of endurance training is giving your body something to endure. I have a close friend who does MAF training and never improves, because she keeps her mileage at 12 miles per week.
The important thing in her case is that she is healthy (she's not a racer), and all her nagging injuries disappeared. That was her goal.

--Jimmy

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MAF log

---

When I started MAF training in July, I was only running 15-18MPW, with a max of 23MPW prior to my HM in May. I just couldn't seem to increase my mileage due to nagging injuries. I reached 30MPW two weeks ago, injury-free, and have decided to hold steady for the next couple of weeks until allergy season is over, and until I get the results from the bloodwork, etc, I intend on having this week.

For the record, I had a MUCH better run this morning. Here's the data:

5.92 miles. Temp: 54-63, Dew point 50-55.

Splits: time/avg HR (terrain)
Mile 1 17:26/125 (1/4mile walk, slow jog, climbed 500 stairs)
Mile 2 9:46/140 (flat)
Mile 3 9:55/140 (1/2mile flat, 1/2mile downhill, some stairs)
Mile 4 10:18/143 (1/4mile gentle downhill, flat)
Mile 5 10:37/144 (flat)
Mile 5.92 10:07/144 (flat, 1/4mile gentle uphill)

I'm much happier today with this run than I was with my MAF test. I'm thinking that my MAF test may have just been a particularly bad run. I'm not sure exactly why, but I did have a couple of very busy days at work on Thursday and Friday. My job can be very physically and emotionally demanding, and I think I underestimate the toll it takes on me sometimes. Next MAF test will NOT be done after a couple of stressful days at work, that's for sure!

Thanks again for all the help, guys! I really appreciate your input!

Pam

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posted Sep-30-2007 12:41 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by leitnerj:
well, you have to put my few statements about MAF tests together to get to the gist of what I'm talking about:
1. one should be gathering HR split data each run anyway in
order to be able to track whether there's a problem. (Really,
this is not necessary, but the problem is that everyone comes
back to this thread and throws a few data points and says that
the world is crashing down). Without a trend (not just 2, 3, 4
or workouts) it's impossible to assess (1) if there's really a problem,
(2) whether the person is not quite keeping strictly low,
(3) if a lower heart rate target may be required, or (4) something
else is going on, not apparent from a small amount of data.

2. one should pick a set time period (say, three weeks) and
make it a point to look at the trend over that time. Yes, there
is a tendency to obsess over it, but in order to be successful
at this, one needs to learn not to obsess over things! It's very
important.

In short, MAF tests are fine, but they do not provide enough information to post here and have anyone figure it out. Further, it seems as though some are really not strictly staying below the MAF heart rate other than during MAF tests.

---

thanks leitnerj, this is a good overview. i can't disagree. i've had the luxury of doing my maf tests on an indoor track for a few years. so everything is well controlled. now, that's not possible so i'm looking at the local hs track or something. i'm very test oriented so a test every 3-4 weeks is probably the way i'll do it. i'm always aware of my times on my daily runs too.

also some good discussion about dew points. i'm well aware of the temp and humidity factors separately, which is the way for a scientist to look at things. i think that's why maffetone doesn't talk about dew point but strongly emphasizes temp and humidity as potential stressors during training. bottom line for me is just follow the heart rate.

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posted Sep-30-2007 12:44 PM            

8 miles
bike trail sunny 64º/43% humidity
average pace 10:50
highest average HR per mile: 130 bpm

Compare to a run on July 1st:

8 miles
bike trail sunny 65º/55% humidity
average pace: 12:32
highest average HR per mile: 129 bpm

It seems in the midst of all that real slow stuff during the stress and heat this summer, I was making some progress.

Yay!

--Jimmy

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posted Sep-30-2007 05:55 PM               

quote:

---

Originally posted by jjwaverly42:
In the "when is 10:50 average pace a fast run? Well, when you've been running between 11:30 and 14:00 for 3 months" category- I had a bit of a break through today:

8 miles
bike trail sunny 64º/43% humidity
average pace 10:50
highest average HR per mile: 130 bpm

Compare to a run on July 1st:

8 miles
bike trail sunny 65º/55% humidity
average pace: 12:32
highest average HR per mile: 129 bpm

It seems in the midst of all that real slow stuff during the stress and heat this summer, I was making some progress.

Yay!

--Jimmy

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---

Congrats, Jimmy! That's just the kind of story I need to hear right now. Hopefully I'll be saying the same thing in a few months!

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posted Sep-30-2007 06:12 PM               

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posted Sep-30-2007 06:51 PM               

quote:

---

Originally posted by apires:
After you have started the MAF program is it necessary to drop your MAF heart rate every birthday?

---

One heart beat won't really make a difference, especially
if you've been going at it for a while.

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posted Sep-30-2007 10:19 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by catwoman73:
Congrats, Jimmy! That's just the kind of story I need to hear right now. Hopefully I'll be saying the same thing in a few months!

---

Thank you. Keep in mind that it takes time--sometimes a long time. Build some volume, do some long walks as well. Remember to follow rules of recovery. I've come to believe that recovery days and weeks are the backbone of any progress, and the ultimate protection against overuse injury. Whenever I've started to let my inflated image of myself, and my tendency to want to be on the next level before I'm ready ( buy and read my book "How I Tried To Go Leitnerjkarnazes One Crazy Fall") rule my decisions (a.k.a running 80 miles with a progression 20-miler the week after a PR half-marathon), I've paid for it dearly.

my unsolicited rules of recovery:

--hard day, then an easy or rest day, hard day, easy or rest day... into infinity. Take multiple rest days after hard races (do some walking or a very short MAF-15 run)

--cut back every 4th week by at least 20-30%

--drink water from Lourdes once a month as part of a nice oolong tea.

Keep going!

--Jimmy

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[This message has been edited by jjwaverly42 (edited Sep-30-2007).]

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posted Oct-01-2007 07:09 AM               

quote:

---

Originally posted by leitnerj:
I think you may want to run the half
just as a gauge for how things are going.

---

I think you are probably right. The half is on Nov. 4th, so that gives me a month (OMG- its October already!). The race is mostly flat, with a 2km downhill approx. 2/3 of the way through, and a 2km uphill at the very end. I think I'm going to need to get some practic running long hills at the END of my long runs- not something I've done much of since I started low HR training.

My plan for training between now and then is to keep up with the MAF training, making sure to get in lots of downhill time for leg turnover (and some uphill time at the end of my long runs, apparently). But how does everyone here approach racing? Do you worry about your HR at all? I haven't spent any significant time with my HR above 146 in a couple of months, but I know I won't be able to keep it that low in a race atmosphere. I have a feeling my HR won't be as high during this half as it was during the one I did in May, but it will certainly be higher than MAF, especially during that 2km uphill at the end. Should I worry about my HR, or just try to maintain a comfortable pace, and look at the HR data after the fact to evaluate how things went?

Thanks everyone!

Pam

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posted Oct-01-2007 09:02 AM               

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posted Oct-01-2007 10:04 AM               

I have just done a LHR "run"..

To stay below 151 I have to walk almost all the time.. Can run maybe 60 meters, and then walk.

My walking pace is around 15-16 min/miles, and I feel that I am getting NOTHING from this.

If I try to run slow enough to stay below 151 all the time, I will run close to 9 min pr km, which seems very awkward and energy wasting, since it is very unnatural to "run" at that pace. Actually I feel that it has nothing to do with running.

Sorry for the outburst.. Just a runner who has just returned from a veru frustrating experience

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posted Oct-01-2007 04:44 PM               

quote:

---

Originally posted by henrikker:
This is very bad for the morale.
I have just done a LHR "run"..
To stay below 151 I have to walk almost all the time.. Can run maybe 60 meters, and then walk.
My walking pace is around 15-16 min/miles, and I feel that I am getting NOTHING from this.
If I try to run slow enough to stay below 151 all the time, I will run close to 9 min pr km, which seems very awkward and energy wasting, since it is very unnatural to "run" at that pace. Actually I feel that it has nothing to do with running.
Sorry for the outburst.. Just a runner who has just returned from a veru frustrating experience

---

You're not alone in this - many people start this way. And, walking is a great way to build aerobic function. So you are getting benefits. Do what it takes to stay at your heart rate, and gradually you'll get faster at that same HR. It's not just about running, it's about total health.

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posted Oct-01-2007 04:46 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by henrikker:
This is very bad for the morale.

I have just done a LHR "run"..

To stay below 151 I have to walk almost all the time.. Can run maybe 60 meters, and then walk.

My walking pace is around 15-16 min/miles, and I feel that I am getting NOTHING from this.

If I try to run slow enough to stay below 151 all the time, I will run close to 9 min pr km, which seems very awkward and energy wasting, since it is very unnatural to "run" at that pace. Actually I feel that it has nothing to do with running.

Sorry for the outburst.. Just a runner who has just returned from a veru frustrating experience

---

Sucks, huh?

I've been there. It eventually took me to a 3:22 marathon. Not the best in the world, but it got me back to Boston at age 46.

If you have to walk at 151 HR, then you need this program. Your aerobic system is nill. If you take your time, build mileage by about 5-10% per week, cutting back for a rest week every 4th week, and obeying good recovery rules like hard/ easy day, you will see progress, and stay healthy as well.

Good luck!

--Jimmy

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posted Oct-01-2007 04:57 PM               

You will probably see more of those as I continue the program..
I have decided to continue until xmas and not think about it.. Then see what my mile time is.. Then evaluate the whole thing again.

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posted Oct-01-2007 05:26 PM               

quote:

---

Originally posted by henrikker:
Thank you for your replies, and again sorry for the outburst..

You will probably see more of those as I continue the program..
I have decided to continue until xmas and not think about it.. Then see what my mile time is.. Then evaluate the whole thing again.

---

I think if you read through this entire, VERY lengthy thread, and some of the archived threads of the same name, you'll see that you really aren't alone. This stuff does work, though. The hardest part is having faith that things will improve. I'm struggling with that myself right now. Just keep at it, and feel free to complain here. Trust me- we all understand!

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posted Oct-01-2007 06:47 PM            

My only benchmark is a 5K last May in 27:23 (8:50 mpm), which when plugged into McMillian's calculator, predicts a 2:06:35 (9:40 mpm). Since then however, my pace at my MAF of 133 (female, 47, no adjustments either way) has dropped from about 12mpm to about 11:20mpm. I've been averaging 30 mpw with a high of 40 mpw and a long run of 12-15 miles weekly, all at (or below) MAF, so I feel adequately trained for the distance.

So my question is, do you think that the 40 sec drop in my MAF since then might indicate that I could break 2 hours for the half (9:09 mpm)?

Or should I stick to my new goal of 2:04:26? :-)

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posted Oct-01-2007 07:18 PM               

quote:

---

Originally posted by pismodiver:
I'm looking for some opinions as to what my pace should be for my first half-marathon on 14 October.

My only benchmark is a 5K last May in 27:23 (8:50 mpm), which when plugged into McMillian's calculator, predicts a 2:06:35 (9:40 mpm). Since then however, my pace at my MAF of 133 (female, 47, no adjustments either way) has dropped from about 12mpm to about 11:20mpm. I've been averaging 30 mpw with a high of 40 mpw and a long run of 12-15 miles weekly, all at (or below) MAF, so I feel adequately trained for the distance.

So my question is, do you think that the 40 sec drop in my MAF since then might indicate that I could break 2 hours for the half (9:09 mpm)?

Or should I stick to my new goal of 2:04:26? :-)

---

Well, there's too much precision in all of your estimates!
Go out conservatively at a 9:30ish pace and see how you feel
after about 5 miles, the progressively increase if you feel good
and throw it all out there with 3 miles to go.

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posted Oct-02-2007 10:40 AM               

Lost patience again.

Though I was clear in my mind about just following the program until xmas.

So I went out today planning on a 8-10 mile run (2 laps of 4 miles on the local course, maybe followed be a tiny add on).

after a good 18-20 min warming up (about 1,3 mile) with walk/run I had the following times

Mile 1: 14.25
Mile 2: 13.52
Mile 3: 13.50 (Almost all walking)

Then I had lost my patience, and just ran the last mile home (6.16)

I feel I had a nice warm up, and I think the incr in pace pr mile is just an incr in walking pace when I have to walk..Found that my fast walking pace is about 14 mpm.. Which makes the first mile sad..very sad indeed..

I have a therory..

Could it be that it would be an advantage for me to run "normally" at around 8-10 mpm for a month. Of course shorter trips since my HR will be high.. I will then build up a bit of cardio, and should be better.. even at LHR.. Maybe good enough to rund all the time and make 12 mpm...Would be much better for my motivation

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posted Oct-02-2007 10:54 AM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by henrikker:
Dammit.. Did it again
Mile 1: 14.25
Mile 2: 13.52
Mile 3: 13.50 (Almost all walking)

Then I had lost my patience, and just ran the last mile home (6.16)

---

Do have the HR splits? I'm especially curious to see your average/max heart rate for the 6:16 last mile.

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posted Oct-02-2007 11:40 AM               

Mile 1: 146
Mile 2: 147
Mile 3: 145
Mile 4: 173 (max 181, there was a, very, little climb)

My MAF is 151..

The first 2 miles I ran up to 148 (watch alarm), then walk it down to around 145, and start running again.

mile 3 was more constant since I was walking.

[This message has been edited by henrikker (edited Oct-02-2007).]

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posted Oct-02-2007 12:17 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by henrikker:
Avg HR is

Mile 1: 146
Mile 2: 147
Mile 3: 145
Mile 4: 173 (max 181, there was a, very, little climb)

My MAF is 151..

The first 2 miles I ran up to 148 (watch alarm), then walk it down to around 145, and start running again.

mile 3 was more constant since I was walking.

[This message has been edited by henrikker (edited Oct-02-2007).]

---

Why are you trying MAF training?
What brought you to the program?
What are your goals?
Are you willing to do what it takes to accomplish them?

I don't expect answers to these. But you might consider them.
You don't seem to want to do what it takes to get the most out of MAF training. Again, I'll reiterate, if you can't keep under your MAF without walking, then you need the training or some aerobic base program that is similar. You are in sorry aerobic shape. Nothing wrong with that. "Sorry shape" is completely temporary--if you want it to be.

--Jimmy

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