posted Sep-23-2007 03:11 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by leitnerj:
Well, I don't know about pushing harder, but I think the downs are your
best opportunity to maximize leg turnover while still well into the
aerobic range, so you're best pushing to keep up at MAF on the
down segments. If you're just using the downs for recovery at
10-20 beats lower than the rest of your run, then you should definitely
push harder.

---

I've only sped up to maintain my HR, haven't sped up enough to increase it. The average HR for today's run was 133, MAF is 142. I'll have to try speeding up the downs closer to 140. Only concern will be how that will affect my HR during the rest of the run. We'll see.

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posted Sep-23-2007 05:07 PM               

quote:

---

Originally posted by streeetch:
I've only sped up to maintain my HR, haven't sped up enough to increase it. The average HR for today's run was 133, MAF is 142. I'll have to try speeding up the downs closer to 140. Only concern will be how that will affect my HR during the rest of the run. We'll see.

---

It shouldn't have much effect (i.e., shouldn't cause you to run
with a higher level at the same pace), but with that said, keeping up to the
level that you're maintaining for the run is reasonable.

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posted Sep-23-2007 06:10 PM               

The 200 meter idea is OK, but it's too long and your risk getting anaerobic. The short distance will keep you from producing lactic acid because you're only running race pace for less than 10 seconds or so. Beyond that you're starting to get anaerobic. The shorter distance gives your body what it needs (faster turnover) without the stress.

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posted Sep-24-2007 10:40 AM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by streeetch:
I've only sped up to maintain my HR, haven't sped up enough to increase it. The average HR for today's run was 133, MAF is 142. I'll have to try speeding up the downs closer to 140. Only concern will be how that will affect my HR during the rest of the run. We'll see.

---

Have you tried the aerobic intervals that Maffetone talks about in his books? They're also a good way to get some faster turnover in. I do 1/4 mile intervals. I warm-up for the prescribed 15 minutes, then run a pace for a 1/4 mile that puts you at the top of your MAF zone (your MAF number). Then after the 1/4 mile (or whatever distance or time you choose) slow down to a pace that puts you at MAF-10. Do that for a 1/4 mile. I do 8 repeats.

--Jimmy

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posted Sep-24-2007 10:59 AM            

Today I did 2 times 2 miles and 1 times a mile at HR around
148 to 156.

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posted Sep-24-2007 03:25 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by fredurie:
110 miles last week most of it at a HR around 99 to 106.

Today I did 2 times 2 miles and 1 times a mile at HR around
148 to 156.

---

Awesome.
How does that 110 miles break down day by day?
(i.e. how many miles each day for the week)

--Jimmy

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posted Sep-24-2007 06:05 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by jjwaverly42:

Have you tried the aerobic intervals that Maffetone talks about in his books? They're also a good way to get some faster turnover in. I do 1/4 mile intervals. I warm-up for the prescribed 15 minutes, then run a pace for a 1/4 mile that puts you at the top of your MAF zone (your MAF number). Then after the 1/4 mile (or whatever distance or time you choose) slow down to a pace that puts you at MAF-10. Do that for a 1/4 mile. I do 8 repeats.

--Jimmy

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---

Thanks, I had forgotten about that. I re-read chapter 11 of Training For Endurance and I'll be speeding up my downhills closer to MAF.

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posted Sep-24-2007 08:18 PM               

quote:

---

Originally posted by DavidD:
A good downhill is anything that will make you run faster (and comfortable) at the same heart rate. A long one is great for most people, but I would not run any faster than 10K PR pace (although you'll probably not run that fast).

The 200 meter idea is OK, but it's too long and your risk getting anaerobic. The short distance will keep you from producing lactic acid because you're only running race pace for less than 10 seconds or so. Beyond that you're starting to get anaerobic. The shorter distance gives your body what it needs (faster turnover) without the stress.

---

I run much faster than 10k pace (5k pace, even) on most of my
runs (they all have pretty large hills) at some point or another,
still keeping under MAF. Any reason why you particularly
mention 10k pace?

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posted Sep-24-2007 09:16 PM            

Will this be a setback or just keep on without worry?

I would have never made the four miler without slowing down for LHR training.

Kent

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posted Sep-24-2007 09:18 PM               

quote:

---

Originally posted by Fatdude:
I have worked my long run to 4 miles as of yesterday. During that run I did not hear my heart rate monitor and got my HR to 159 for a few seconds. I have been keeping it below 140 for three weeks now.

Will this be a setback or just keep on without worry?

I would have never made the four miler without slowing down for LHR training.

Kent

---

Don't be concerned. Just pick up where you left off.

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posted Sep-25-2007 07:00 AM               

quote:

---

Originally posted by Gregolowe:
I'm going to interupt the discussion on fat vs sugar burning to get some opinions on my most recent MAF test. I was disappointed with the results. Here's my first test:
July 24. Treadmill. 6am
Mile Time Pace HR
1 11:00 5.5mph 140
2 11:22 5.2 140
3 12:08 4.8 "
3.5 6:20 4.7 "
I had to cut it short due to time. The final mile projects out to a 12:40 mile. I was happy at the time as this seemed better than what alot of people were starting with. I warmed up with a .5 mile brisk walk and jog then did the above
MAF#2. Today. Same treadmill. 6am
Mile Time Pace HR
1 11:05 5.3 140
2 11:45 4.9 140
3 12:15 4.8 140
4 12:20 4.9 140
So, I was disappointed. I don't see much improvement. The rate of pace decrease seems to have slowed a bit. But overall, it actually looks worse than the first one. I'm pretty disappointed. I was hoping for significant improvement with an increase in pace of a minute or so. I know it's too soon to expect significant progress but I was still hoping. It makes it harder to want to keep with the training. Right now I still want to do it for another month but if I don't see any progress then, then I'm not sure what to do. Any encouragement would be appreciated.

---

MAF test #3 today.
Mile Time Pace
1 12: 34
2 26:00 12:34
3 39:50 13:50
4 53:30 13:40
5 ?
The last mile the treadmill cut out on me and erased my distance and time. I tried to keep my Hr below MAF of 142. I would back the pace down to slow down to bring hr down then back up to bring it up.
Some possible mitigating factors: I've got a head and chest cold, I haven't run in a week as I'm sick, my mielage has dropped way off due to tapering for VT 50 on Sunday, I drink alcohol every evening, maybe 4 oz of straight spirits, I may have gained a few pounds, I was wearing cotton instead of my polyester shirt possibly factoring into cooling issues, yada yada yada... Why should I even bother with this anymore? It's completey frustrating and my conditioning seems to be eroding, not improving. I did 10 weeks of low heart rate training, keeping my bpm below MAF the whole time, being patient, trusting, and I've steadily gotten less aerobically fit.

[This message has been edited by Gregolowe (edited Sep-25-2007).]

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posted Sep-25-2007 08:40 AM            

I have been running the LHR thing for a couple days shy of a month. On my last few runs, I have noticied a sensation in my calfs and just above the knee in my thighs that is different. I usually start feeling it at around a mile or so into the run and it feels almost like a cold chill. It runs down the side of my calves and thru my thighs. It doesn't hurt it just feels weird..

I have noticied that when this is happening I have no problem controllling my HR at all. Like I said it is probably crazy but it has been bugging me for a while now.

Kent

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posted Sep-25-2007 09:00 AM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by Gregolowe:
MAF test #3 today.
Mile Time Pace
1 12: 34
2 26:00 12:34
3 39:50 13:50
4 53:30 13:40
5 ?
The last mile the treadmill cut out on me and erased my distance and time. I tried to keep my Hr below MAF of 142. I would back the pace down to slow down to bring hr down then back up to bring it up.
Some possible mitigating factors: I've got a head and chest cold, I haven't run in a week as I'm sick, my mielage has dropped way off due to tapering for VT 50 on Sunday, I drink alcohol every evening, maybe 4 oz of straight spirits, I may have gained a few pounds, I was wearing cotton instead of my polyester shirt possibly factoring into cooling issues, yada yada yada... Why should I even bother with this anymore? It's completey frustrating and my conditioning seems to be eroding, not improving. I did 10 weeks of low heart rate training, keeping my bpm below MAF the whole time, being patient, trusting, and I've steadily gotten less aerobically fit.

[This message has been edited by Gregolowe (edited Sep-25-2007).]

---

That's a lot of mitigating factors, and a few fairly strenuous ones at that. I have a hard time believing if you were running a lot harder that you would be improving aerobically, though. Some people take a lot of miles and then they start improving. Others see it very quickly.

Enjoy your taper, have a great race, and most of all get healthy.

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posted Sep-25-2007 10:48 AM               

Something really weird has been happening lately on every single run I've attempted. My first three miles go really well. My pace slows by only 5-10sec/mile. My pace for mile 4 plummets by 30 sec/mile, and then my subsequent miles start slowing at 5-10sec/mile again. For example- here's today's splits for a 6.47mile run:

Mile 1- 12:18 (walked first 1/4mile)
Mile 2- 10:54
Mile 3- 10:55
Mile 4- 11:19
Mile 5- 11:27
Mile 6- 11:36
Mile 6.47- 05:50

So what is happening between mile 3 and 4? This has happened on every single one of my runs for the last two weeks. I run on relatively flat terrain most of the time, so its not like I'm encountering a huge hill at that point. My usual MAF HR is 146, but I've recently started using 136 due to allergy season. I thought that may have been part of the problem, but my allergies have recently improved 100%, so today I tried using a HR of 146 again. Same problem between mile 3-4. Could it be that my body is so tired from battling these allergies (despite the fact that I've felt much better for the last few days), that I just can't run more than 3 miles without tiring out? Just a month ago, I was running 12 miles without any similar problems, and I have a hard time believing that my allergies could be responsible for such a huge deterioration. For the record- my diet and hydration have been excellent, I've been getting plenty of sleep, and don't feel particularly stressed out. I've had no aches and pains or injuries lately.

So, what gives??? I plan to do a MAF test at the track on Saturday to see if the same thing happens under more controlled circumstances. In the meantime, I'd really appreciate any insight anyone might have. Thanks!

Pam

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posted Sep-25-2007 10:57 AM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by jjwaverly42:
Awesome.
How does that 110 miles break down day by day?
(i.e. how many miles each day for the week)

--Jimmy

MAF log

profile

---

Jimmy,

Sunday - 11 miler
Monday - 20 miler
Tuesday - 15 miler
Wednesday - 15 miler
Thursday - 15 miler
Friday - 19 miler
Saturday - 15 miler

Fred

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posted Sep-25-2007 11:48 AM               

quote:

---

Originally posted by leitnerj:
I run much faster than 10k pace (5k pace, even) on most of my
runs (they all have pretty large hills) at some point or another,
still keeping under MAF. Any reason why you particularly
mention 10k pace?

---

If you're training for a short race (less than 5K), running your downhill MAF at that pace (or a bit faster) makes sense. But to train at paces you would never achieve in a race makes no sense from a neuromuscular standpoint. You want to train the muscles at a pace similar to your race. It's like doing 50 meter sprints, all out, when you're training for a marathon - there's no real value in doing that so it becomes a training stress you can do without.

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posted Sep-25-2007 11:53 AM               

quote:

---

Originally posted by Docster:
That's a lot of mitigating factors, and a few fairly strenuous ones at that. I have a hard time believing if you were running a lot harder that you would be improving aerobically, though. Some people take a lot of miles and then they start improving. Others see it very quickly.

Enjoy your taper, have a great race, and most of all get healthy.

---

Yeah, but do people regress like I have? This is a big shock to me. I ran a 30 miler and a 26 miler and 4-5 18-20 milers in the last 10 weeks all at MAF or lower. I need to run MORE? I ran 460 miles since May. Do I need to go lower with my MAF and how are you going to convince me that's a good idea with the degredation shown above? I need to subject myself to MORE frustration and regression?
My plan was to build a base for the next 4 months through the winter but now I don't know.

[This message has been edited by Gregolowe (edited Sep-25-2007).]

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posted Sep-25-2007 12:23 PM               

quote:

---

Originally posted by Gregolowe:
Yeah, but do people regress like I have? This is a big shock to me. I ran a 30 miler and a 26 miler and 4-5 18-20 milers in the last 10 weeks all at MAF or lower. I need to run MORE? I ran 460 miles since May. Do I need to go lower with my MAF and how are you going to convince me that's a good idea with the degredation shown above? I need to subject myself to MORE frustration and regression?

---

Any significant regression is an indication that something is wrong. I don't know enough about you to render an opinion, but it seems like you're racing and training a lot. Maybe you have nothing else to do all week, but it reminds me of overtraining. There could be other problems, but there must be problems or you would not regress. Diet, stress, etc. need to be evaluated. Read Maffetone's overtraining article too. Just because you're training at MAF doesn't mean you can't overdo it.

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posted Sep-25-2007 01:43 PM            

I began LHR training on June 1, wogging an 8.3 mile LSD @ 17:38m/m pace. That was my longest run to that date, and I could not have run another step; nor could I have managed that distance at any higher heart rate or faster pace.

September 23, I ran a 14.1 mile LSD @ 14:08m/m pace. Not my longest run... I could have run farther, and I could have run faster. This 14.1 felt significantly easier than the June 1 8.3 -- at the same average HR.

My weekly mileage has increased during this time from 9-14 miles/week to 40-44 miles/week. My body cooperates with me to run 6 days/week now, while before I had to have 1-2 days rest between each run for recovery.

I'd say LHR training has been working for me!

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posted Sep-25-2007 05:49 PM               

quote:

---

Originally posted by DavidD:
If you're training for a short race (less than 5K), running your downhill MAF at that pace (or a bit faster) makes sense. But to train at paces you would never achieve in a race makes no sense from a neuromuscular standpoint. You want to train the muscles at a pace similar to your race. It's like doing 50 meter sprints, all out, when you're training for a marathon - there's no real value in doing that so it becomes a training stress you can do without.

---

On the contrary, I run mostly ultras and marathons and it's not unusual
for me to hit that type of pace at various times in the race. I'm sorry, but if you're
running an ultra that includes 15-20% grades downhill (which some of
mine do) or a marathon with 5-10%, then you can easily hit those types
of paces during the downhill segments. So, I vehemently disagree with
your analogy. I will continue to encourage people to keep heart rate up
at MAF on the downhills because I believe it's an important contributor
to pace improvement. Obviously, when adding downhill segments, one
must use caution in doing so and be very gradual adding volume, but
I believe there's much benefit to aerobic speed workouts. There's
little doubt that most top marathoners include speedwork that goes
much faster than marathon pace. I just suggest to use the hills to
stay within the heart rate bounds of the program.

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posted Sep-25-2007 05:55 PM               

quote:

---

Originally posted by Gregolowe:
Yeah, but do people regress like I have? This is a big shock to me. I ran a 30 miler and a 26 miler and 4-5 18-20 milers in the last 10 weeks all at MAF or lower. I need to run MORE? I ran 460 miles since May. Do I need to go lower with my MAF and how are you going to convince me that's a good idea with the degredation shown above? I need to subject myself to MORE frustration and regression?
My plan was to build a base for the next 4 months through the winter but now I don't know.

[This message has been edited by Gregolowe (edited Sep-25-2007).]

---

Honestly, you haven't shown anything to prove a clear regression
(although, many people have shown significant regression over time
when transitioning from anaerobic running to aerobic running). You
presented results from when you were sick, which are really irrelevant
as any sort of test (other than the fact that they indicate you were sick).
There's also nothing to indicate that you need to run more. How much
in the way of downhills are you including in your runs and do you keep
your heart rate up at MAF when you do? Do you have motionbased
data that you can provide or other tracks of your heart rate, pace,
and elevation? Has your pace at MAF heart rate for each split on the
same course become worse and worse every time in the same
temperature and dewpoint? If so, is this the first time you've noticed?
What value are you using for MAF, based on your age?

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posted Sep-25-2007 05:58 PM               

quote:

---

Originally posted by leitnerj:
On the contrary, I run mostly ultras and marathons and it's not unusual
for me to hit that type of pace at various times in the race. I'm sorry, but if you're
running an ultra that includes 15-20% grades downhill (which some of
mine do) or a marathon with 5-10%, then you can easily hit those types
of paces during the downhill segments. So, I vehemently disagree with
your analogy. I will continue to encourage people to keep heart rate up
at MAF on the downhills because I believe it's an important contributor
to pace improvement. Obviously, when adding downhill segments, one
must use caution in doing so and be very gradual adding volume, but
I believe there's much benefit to aerobic speed workouts. There's
little doubt that most top marathoners include speedwork that goes
much faster than marathon pace. I just suggest to use the hills to
stay within the heart rate bounds of the program.

---

Um, so we agree.

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posted Sep-25-2007 06:36 PM               

quote:

---

Originally posted by DavidD:

Um, so we agree.

---

Sort of, but I believe it would be common to have points
in most marathons where you would hit a 10k pace and
faster so, I would actually encourage going as fast as
possible (under MAF, of course) going down the hills! If that's agreement,
then we certainly do!

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posted Sep-25-2007 07:01 PM            

After alot of thought, I decided to do MAF in order to build base, increase aerobic fitness, and hopefully lose a few lbs.

I had been training on running my 3rd marathon in mid-november but I have decided to work on fitness through the winter and focus on a spring marathon.

I currently run @ 11:30 and 140 bpm. I am 41 years old. I previously ran training runs @ 9:30-10:00

Anyway, there is a local 1/2 this weekend that I am thinking of running. Part of me wants to push to beat the demon from the 1/2 3 weeks ago to prove that I am not as bad of shape as the last race would indicate. While part wants to run the race below MAF and continue with my plan.

If I run the race above MAF would it negate any improvement so far, or should I stay below MAF, or should I just go and watch.

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posted Sep-25-2007 07:53 PM               

quote:

---

Originally posted by mtjoydave:
I started doing MAF 3 weeks ago after bonking a hot/humid 1/2 marathon finishing in 2:11 when I typically do 1:50-1:55. This was my 6th 1/2. My wife was running her 1st so I was really focused on getting her prepared and was not mentally focused for my race.

After alot of thought, I decided to do MAF in order to build base, increase aerobic fitness, and hopefully lose a few lbs.

I had been training on running my 3rd marathon in mid-november but I have decided to work on fitness through the winter and focus on a spring marathon.

I currently run @ 11:30 and 140 bpm. I am 41 years old. I previously ran training runs @ 9:30-10:00

Anyway, there is a local 1/2 this weekend that I am thinking of running. Part of me wants to push to beat the demon from the 1/2 3 weeks ago to prove that I am not as bad of shape as the last race would indicate. While part wants to run the race below MAF and continue with my plan.

If I run the race above MAF would it negate any improvement so far, or should I stay below MAF, or should I just go and watch.

---

You're still in your MAF youth. Would it really make a difference even
if it set you back to square one? Maybe just the period of slower running
and recovery will help your time improve on its own anyway. I'd
probably just run the thing, then go back to MAF full throttle.

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