posted Sep-14-2007 01:23 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by DavidD:
You may be right about water vapor. But having run on too many northeastern high humidity days it seems the "resistance" factor is an issue as I would be drenched with water after just a few miles. And, my MAF test would always be a bit lower compared to dryer locations. (Of course, barometric issues can account for that too.)

---

At high %RH, your sweat does not evaporate effectively, which means that your body's primary cooling system is controlling your body temperature very poorly, causing you to sweat even more, which quickly leads to dehydration and increased blood viscosity = increased cardiac load = greater effort to run the same pace.

Of course, I'm not a physiologist, I'm just an engineer, but this makes sense thermodynamically.

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posted Sep-14-2007 03:50 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by DavidD:
Is this an error? A sign of severe burnout/overtraining? Are you in really great aerobic shape? What's your MAF pace?

---

That doesn't sound too unusual for Fred, unless it's maybe that the heart rate seems a little high for him .

If you've been reading Fred's posts, you will remember "8 miles easy, HR 76-80" (or was that 76-84 ? I don't remember offhand) and many more recent ones. Fred is what some of us might call a "real runner". He knows that currently the real guys in masters running have a benchmark to shoot for:
10 in 60 at 60.
I.e. 10 miles in 60 minutes at age 60.

I suppose Kenny Moore would say the great masses out there "trotting around" need not apply

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posted Sep-14-2007 07:12 PM               

quote:

---

Originally posted by BrandonE:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by DavidD:
[b] You may be right about water vapor. But having run on too many northeastern high humidity days it seems the "resistance" factor is an issue as I would be drenched with water after just a few miles. And, my MAF test would always be a bit lower compared to dryer locations. (Of course, barometric issues can account for that too.)

---

At high %RH, your sweat does not evaporate effectively, which means that your body's primary cooling system is controlling your body temperature very poorly, causing you to sweat even more, which quickly leads to dehydration and increased blood viscosity = increased cardiac load = greater effort to run the same pace.

Of course, I'm not a physiologist, I'm just an engineer, but this makes sense thermodynamically.[/B][/QUOTE]

This is logical, and could be significant in longer workouts and races. Your body temperature would also rise quicker, potentially.

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posted Sep-14-2007 07:52 PM            

martinjames,

I see you on the list of entrants for the parks half marathon on Sunday. I signed up last night. Hopefully I'll see you there. There's a good chance we won't be too far apart on the course.

Greg

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posted Sep-15-2007 06:50 AM               

quote:

---

Originally posted by leitnerj:
Hi Susan - glad to see you back! I think our last discussion was
about icebugs.

that was indeed a while ago - the ice bugs are gathering dust while i am stil trying to get my runs in before temperatures reach the 80s and 90s

For a half
marathon, you want to start at a comfortably challenging pace for
2-3 miles, then move to a pace that's "kinda hard," followed by
"painful" for the last 3 miles. I hope that wasn't overly technical!
Not knowing what your anaerobic threshold is, it's really hard to
guess, but we can use my very rough approximation (that I'm
going to come up with right now). I'll assume that MAF heart rate
is about 85% of anaerobic threshold heart rate for an individual
that is well-trained aerobically, perhaps by MAFing for a while,
which you have been. Hence, I will crudely estimate that your
anaerobic threshold occurs at 1.18*(MAF heart rate), which I
will call AT_app. I will then crudely estimate that AT_app would
be a good estimate for your overall average heart rate for a
half marathon. Given that, absent anything else (other than
a *significant* amount of logic, thought, and careful self-assessment
during the race), you might start for the first 2-3 miles at about
AT_app-15 progressing through AT_app-5. Then let your heart
rate climb very slowly (1 or 2 beats per mile) until mile 10 or 11.
Then throw it all out there. When you climb hills, keep your
heart rate within 3 or 4 beats of where it was before the hill,
and when you go down, don't let it drop by more than 2 or 3 beats.
DISCLAIMER: This is an untested hypothesis - use at your
own risk!

---

thanks, jesse - i've plugged your numbers in and they make sense - i drove the race course yesterday and there are hills at miles 1, 2 and 6, so i really have to take it easy in the beginning. i'll let you know how i do!

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susan

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posted Sep-15-2007 08:14 AM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by DavidD:
Is this an error? A sign of severe burnout/overtraining? Are you in really great aerobic shape? What's your MAF pace?

---

Fred's resting heart rate is 6, but his heart beats so strong each time the blood does a few extra loops around the body on sheer momentum. Kids like to sit on his chest and be thrown into the air by the thrusting of his sternum caused by each beat. He can't wear shirts with buttons, as they pop right off like a scene from The Incredible Hulk starring the amazing Bill Bixby and Arnold's favorite stompee, Lou Ferigno. He does have a minor problem with low-end hearing loss due to the constant exposure to the BOOM ...(10 sec.)...BOOM...(10 sec.)...BOOM. He has long accepted his problem with involuntary regurgitation while eating as his heart presses against his esophagus. He has learned to time the swallow of his bolus in the 10 second window. Although he still gives out safety glasses to the people eating with him, just in case he swallows off rhythm.

So don't worry about him.

--Jimmy

Those of you who can't remember biology class, see definition #2:
bolus

MAF log
77777

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posted Sep-15-2007 11:21 AM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by DavidD:
Is this an error? A sign of severe burnout/overtraining? Are you in really great aerobic shape? What's your MAF pace?

---

My MAF pace at 10 miles is a tempo workout at 50F and low humidity.

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posted Sep-15-2007 11:25 AM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by jjwaverly42:

Fred's resting heart rate is 6, but his heart beats so strong each time the blood does a few extra loops around the body on sheer momentum. Kids like to sit on his chest and be thrown into the air by the thrusting of his sternum caused by each beat. He can't wear shirts with buttons, as they pop right off like a scene from The Incredible Hulk starring the amazing Bill Bixby and Arnold's favorite stompee, Lou Ferigno. He does have a minor problem with low-end hearing loss due to the constant exposure to the BOOM ...(10 sec.)...BOOM...(10 sec.)...BOOM. He has long accepted his problem with involuntary regurgitation while eating as his heart presses against his esophagus. He has learned to time the swallow of his bolus in the 10 second window. Although he still gives out safety glasses to the people eating with him, just in case he swallows off rhythm.

So don't worry about him.

--Jimmy

Those of you who can't remember biology class, see definition #2:
bolus

MAF log
77777

---

You should be writing for a comedy series.

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posted Sep-15-2007 12:19 PM            

Sat, On couch sawing logs, HR 46

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posted Sep-15-2007 04:28 PM               

quote:

---

Originally posted by gregw:
not related to LHR, but I figured he might look here, ...

martinjames,

I see you on the list of entrants for the parks half marathon on Sunday. I signed up last night. Hopefully I'll see you there. There's a good chance we won't be too far apart on the course.

Greg

---

Oh, there's a good chance that we'll be miles apart. i'm still struggling to get back in shape. After a course of steroids, I just ran my first 30 mile week in 3 months -- all slow of course -- and the PT people want me to dial it back to 20 mpw. So while you're celebrating in beautiful downtown Bethesday with a cookie and juice, I'll be bumping along cursing "motion control" shoes and an acute inability to "listen to my body."

I don't know if you've run it before, but I like the race. Very nicely done. Pretty trails, well organized, and a free Metro card to get back to the car. If I had cajones, I'd just run the 6 miles home -- but the PT people would stone me for sure.

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posted Sep-15-2007 04:30 PM               

quote:

---

Originally posted by martinjames:
Oh, there's a good chance that we'll be miles apart. i'm still struggling to get back in shape. After a course of steroids, I just ran my first 30 mile week in 3 months -- all slow of course -- and the PT people want me to dial it back to 20 mpw. So while you're celebrating in beautiful downtown Bethesday with a cookie and juice, I'll be bumping along cursing "motion control" shoes and an acute inability to "listen to my body."

I don't know if you've run it before, but I like the race. Very nicely done. Pretty trails, well organized, and a free Metro card to get back to the car. If I had cajones, I'd just run the 6 miles home -- but the PT people would stone me for sure.

---

Sounds like it must cover a chunk of the old Marathon in the
Parks (my first marathon) course??

------------------
MyRunningLog
MyStuff
Low Heart Rate Training FAQ
My marathons and ultras
My races and reports

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posted Sep-15-2007 04:45 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by leitnerj:
Sounds like it must cover a chunk of the old Marathon in the
Parks (my first marathon) course??

---

Looking at the course maps on usatf.org, it looks like it's basically the southern half of the full course.

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posted Sep-15-2007 11:03 PM            

The 100 weeks was easy aerobically, as all but 4 miles were MAF or under - so my heart rate's fine, but my legs are a bit beat up.

Glad I did it, though. I don't plan to again - it'll risk a good marathon - but I'm more mortal; and thrilled that LHR got me there.

Now I just need to get used to running at 8:00 min/mi pace or below when I do most of my runs at 9:30 or slower.

BTW, my resting pulse has dropped from 50 to 44 in the past year. My MAF is 144 - but I've moved the pace from about 9:15 to 8:40 over that time at that heart rate.

May not sound that great; but I have been running for 29 years; and after college XC - have done more slow runs than most.

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posted Sep-17-2007 07:52 AM            

Mile 1 ..... 10:28 ..... 139 ..... (HR read high first mile)
Mile 2 ..... 10:21 ..... 132 ..... (up hill)
Mile 3 ..... 09:33 ..... 126 ..... (downhill)
Mile 4 ..... 10:03 ..... 127
Mile 5 ..... 10:05 ..... 127
Mile 6 ..... 09:56 ..... 128
Mile 7 ..... 09:57 ..... 126
Mile 8 ..... 10:06 ..... 127
Mile 9 ..... 10:05 ..... 129
Mile 10 .... 10:02 ..... 127
Mile 11 .... 10:00 ..... 129
Mile 12 .... 10:17 ..... 131
Mile 13 .... 10:12 ..... 133
Mile 14 .... 09:59 ..... 132
Mile 15 .... 10:01 ..... 131
Mile 16 .... 10:01 ..... 131
Mile 17 .... 10:05 ..... 134
Mile 18 .... 10:09 ..... 136
Mile 19 .... 10:09 ..... 136
Mile 20 .... 10:25 ..... 138 ..... (Hill)
Mile 21 .... 10:04 ..... 136
Mile 22 .... 10:00 ..... 138
Mile 23 .... 10:10 ..... 142 ..... (small hill)
Mile 24 .... 09:37 ..... 144 ..... (hill)
Mile 25 .... 08:56 ..... 142 ..... (down hill)
Mile 26 .... 08:54 ..... 149
Mile 26.2 .. 07:49 pace .. 155

My Garmin time was 4:22 (9:57 pace), but I stopped the watch during a few potty breaks, so my official time was 4:24 (10:06 pace).

I was very happy with the race. I was particularly surprised (and pleased) with how my HR stayed relatively low (my MAF is 133). I ran a strong, consistent race and was able to finish very strong. It's a lot more fun passing people those last few miles than it is being passed. My recovery is going well ... I have a moderate amount of soreness in my quads, but nothing like after racing a marathon. I expect to return to LHR training today.

I don't know how this translates into a doable race pace, but my PR is 3:49 and I think I'll be able to beat that at Marine Corps. I had fun running a marathon this way and this would not have been possible without following a LHR approach.

Added: I would be grateful to get some feedback on:

1. As a training run, how was my pace/HR combo? Too fast ... too slow?

2. If I had intended to race that day instead of train, does the pace/HR data suggest what would have been a good race pace?

Thanks to all for the help.

[This message has been edited by Who Dey (edited Sep-17-2007).]

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posted Sep-17-2007 12:16 PM               

Well, everyone- I just got back from vacation a couple of days ago. DH and I rented a cottage up in northern Ontario, and had a really nice week. I only ran 3 times while we were away. There are two reasons for this- 1) I really wanted to come home rested, and 2) the terrain was brutal- a half-mile hill with a 10% grade is actually relatively gentle up there! I'm used to running on fairly flat terrain, so it was a real challenge for me. Managed to keep the HR under MAF, though, with a fair bit of walking.

I came home feeling well rested, but my allergies continue to be a huge issue. Resting HR is still riding about 7-8 beats higher than normal, and I just feel crappy and run down all the time. Nonetheless, I went out yesterday to run approx. 7 miles. I felt really good, and my pace was back to where it was before allergy season hit. I had no trouble controlling my HR at all.

So today, I went out to do an almost identical run. I was feeling confident that I'd be able to do at least as well as yesterday, but as it turns out, each mile, starting right from the beginning, was about 30sec slower than yesterday! HR stayed under control quite easily, but I just had to run a lot slower to keep it there. I'm sure that my allergies are at the root of this, and I know that in another month, the allergies will be gone, but its still terribly frustrating.

I could really use some advice on how to proceed for the next little while until allergy season is over. Should I just maintain my weekly mileage, or should I decrease it until I'm feeling better? What about my HR- keep using MAF of 146, as I have been all along, or drop in down to 136 (I am taking medication for my allergies- not that its doing much good)? I really don't know what to do- please help! Thanks in advance!

Pam

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ME!

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posted Sep-17-2007 12:52 PM               

quote:

---

Originally posted by catwoman73:

I came home feeling well rested, but my allergies continue to be a huge issue. Resting HR is still riding about 7-8 beats higher than normal, and I just feel crappy and run down all the time. Nonetheless, I went out yesterday to run approx. 7 miles. I felt really good, and my pace was back to where it was before allergy season hit. I had no trouble controlling my HR at all.

So today, I went out to do an almost identical run. I was feeling confident that I'd be able to do at least as well as yesterday, but as it turns out, each mile, starting right from the beginning, was about 30sec slower than yesterday! HR stayed under control quite easily, but I just had to run a lot slower to keep it there. I'm sure that my allergies are at the root of this, and I know that in another month, the allergies will be gone, but its still terribly frustrating.

I could really use some advice on how to proceed for the next little while until allergy season is over. Should I just maintain my weekly mileage, or should I decrease it until I'm feeling better? What about my HR- keep using MAF of 146, as I have been all along, or drop in down to 136 (I am taking medication for my allergies- not that its doing much good)? I really don't know what to do- please help! Thanks in advance!
Pam

---

If the allergy meds are not helping, they may be hurting. Also, because of both the allergy symptoms and the meds, your MAF heart rate should reflect that - so the lower number is always a better option. I like Maffetone's notion that allergies (and similar symptoms) are really an injury (a chemical one). People have allergy symptoms because something is wrong in the body, not that there's some "season" or pollen or whatever -- we're all exposed to allergens but most people don't have symptoms. (You might consider the Two Week test discussed somewhere in the Canteen section.)

I like to be conservative with mileage too -- reducing it until things are working better. One could benefit greatly by doing this.

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posted Sep-17-2007 01:00 PM               

quote:

---

Originally posted by Who Dey:
...
1. As a training run, how was my pace/HR combo? Too fast ... too slow?

2. If I had intended to race that day instead of train, does the pace/HR data suggest what would have been a good race pace?

Thanks to all for the help.
[This message has been edited by Who Dey (edited Sep-17-2007).]

---

I don't like running marathons as a training run. The total time you run (as opposed to miles) is generally longer than needed for most people. But you seemed quite disciplined in this workout. Hard to speculate on future race pace as there are so many variables. Starting off slower is always a good thing in a marathon.

I would think a 2-3 week taper is in order. I know we talked about this a few pages ago. I don't know any exercise physiologists or any clinicians who would not suggest a good taper if you want to run your best marathon. It makes you stronger, and helps heal things that are brewing (often without you feeling them). You will only gain fitness.

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posted Sep-17-2007 01:43 PM            

The background - I amd 39 years old 5'9" at around 240 lbs. I have been runnign for a few months and my general week of running is every other day. I have worked uo to around 2-3 miles per day. I live in florida so the humidity has worked against me this summer, but I have stuck with it this time.

I am not interested in running to many races, I just want to live a healthy lifestyle. A life style like I have never lived.

Anyway, I have three runs under my belt after reading into LHR training on this thread. I calculated out to a heart rate of 141, (180-39). So here go the questons:

1. Is there a window I should stay in with the max HR? Or, should I stay at or near max HR to feel any benefit?

2. The runnign has feels OK but I am sore in different areas than normal. I am worried that this slowing down will lead to
injury. Is the soreness normal for this long.

3. I know without a doubt my areobic fitness is poor. Is there a level of poor areobic conditioning that I am just wasting my time attempting LHR?

Any help/advice is appreciated. I am determined that I will stick with running year round now that I have benn able to maintain thru this summer. It gets really humid here in the Florida panhandle, and I can't run on a treadmill. My ADD will not let me.

Sorry for the long post. I just want to make sure I am making good decisions about this. Thanks!

Kent
3.

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"One foot in front of the other"
ME

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posted Sep-17-2007 01:48 PM            

I've been suffering from allergies the last month or so. I routinely take Allegra which helps, but lately the mold count has been very high. I don't know what can be done except adjust training paces. It is difficult though to train when one feels run down for a lengthy period of time.

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posted Sep-17-2007 01:52 PM            

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posted Sep-17-2007 01:59 PM               

Last long run last Saturday before taper for VT50: 26 miles, 5:35. Pace, 12:00/mile for first 12 miles, HR @ 142. Last 13, averaged about 13:00/mile. Very pleased, though still wickedly slow.

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posted Sep-17-2007 03:58 PM            

Assuming you answered the other questions that go along with the calculation (deducts for illness, medication, etc), your HR sounds right. The recommended range in one of the articles referenced by the FAQ would be 131-141 for you (from 10 below MAF up to MAF ).

The different soreness is normal. It should ease up soon.

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posted Sep-17-2007 04:42 PM            

Thanks for the help

Kent

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"One foot in front of the other"
ME

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posted Sep-17-2007 05:50 PM               

Be careful about stretching -- I've seen it cause much more trouble than it's worth. Better to spend the time warming up as per Maffetone (I don't think he's a fan of stretching either, for good reasons I'm sure)

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posted Sep-17-2007 06:10 PM               

I'll also check out the two-week test thread and see if it sounds like it would be useful for me.

One more question- I am about due to do a MAF test. Should I even bother? I already know the results will be horrible, but it may be good to get a baseline to see if improvements do start to happen once the pollen/mold spore counts are down. Any thoughts?

Thanks, all!

Pam

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ME!

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