posted Sep-13-2007 09:39 AM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by arkady8:
Quick question -- a few posters have mentioned dew point with regards to how their runs go. I've read the Wiki entry on dew point, but am just curious as to what the distinction is (from a running standpoint) to just looking at the humidity.

I shaved a minute off my MAF pace last night with a low dew point/humidity versus a run a week earlier. But don't those two terms mean essentially the same thing? Or am I missing something?

Thanks!

---

The dew point stays relatively constant throughout the day, but %RH drops as the temperature increases in the afternoon, then rises again as the temperature falls in the evening. The total amount of water in the air (which the dew point tells you) stays relatively constant (on clear days anyway).

Does that answer your question?

[This message has been edited by BrandonE (edited Sep-13-2007).]

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posted Sep-13-2007 11:01 AM               

Also, when the water content of the air is higher, it's often associated with a lower barometric pressure, and further (albeit slightly) reduces oxygen uptake. (It's like being at high altitude where the same amount of O2 is in the air but the pressure is lower so we can't get as much.)

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posted Sep-13-2007 11:13 AM               

i ran a half marathon in may at 2.57.54; i started too fast, and really faded in the last 3 miles. i have more long runs behind me now (3x10 miles, 2x12 miles, 1x13.1 miles), and am feeling more confident that i will be able to break three hours again, but would appreciate any strategy advice on how to plan my HR or pace through saturday's race. the course is "flat and rolling" and all my training has been on hills.

thanks for any advice,

------------------
susan

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posted Sep-13-2007 01:30 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by DavidD:
[B]Humidity (water) in the air does two things. It reduces the amount of air you take into your lungs (which may reduce the amount of O2 you take in), and it's a physical barrier we have to run through (adding a bit of stress which may only be significant in a very long run or race).

---

I'll admit I could be wrong, since I'm an inexperienced runner, but from engineering principles, I don't see the physical resistance being a legitimate claim.

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posted Sep-13-2007 03:37 PM            

Hey Jesse,

!st let me thank you for all the time you have spent starting and moderating this wonderful thread.

The information you and Jimmy are imparting is very important and invaluable. There are also many outstanding stories and questions from the followers of this program. However, Cool Running format and no search engine in the forum make it difficult to fully appreciate all the information in this thread. Have you approached the PTB at Cool Running to allow you to have a Topic header like Galloway does so it will be easy to see important question and comments being made and follow the progressions of those individual comments??

Also have you consider maybe moving the thread to a running forum that is more conducive to searching so it easier for people following this thread to find specific information they may be looking for without having to read entire thread ? Both of these possible options will also help prevent the same questions being asked and answered over and over again.

Thanks again for you time and considerations.

IP: Logged

posted Sep-13-2007 03:40 PM            

Could somebody please explain why it is so detrimental to aerobic development to have your heart rate go above your MAF? It's hard for me to believe that a tempo run a week, or having your heart rate tick up while climbing a hill on an easy run is going to hurt progress.

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posted Sep-13-2007 05:24 PM               

Thanks

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posted Sep-13-2007 05:31 PM               

quote:

---

Originally posted by arkady8:
Quick question -- a few posters have mentioned dew point with regards to how their runs go. I've read the Wiki entry on dew point, but am just curious as to what the distinction is (from a running standpoint) to just looking at the humidity.

I shaved a minute off my MAF pace last night with a low dew point/humidity versus a run a week earlier. But don't those two terms mean essentially the same thing? Or am I missing something?

Thanks!

---

It really is the dewpoint. Go out at 56 degrees and 100% humidity
(i.e., a dewpoint of 56 degrees)
and you will understand. I haven't read all of the responses yet,
but I unfortunately can't give the physiological reason why.

------------------
MyRunningLog
MyStuff
Low Heart Rate Training FAQ
My marathons and ultras
My races and reports

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posted Sep-13-2007 05:32 PM               

quote:

---

Originally posted by ATLrunner:
I've recently started trying to keep my running around MAF pace (153 for me). Up until a few weeks ago, I had been running all of my ~40 miles/week miles anaerobically, and most of them quite hard. I could no longer increase mileage because of the demands of running that many miles so hard, and my race times were no longer improving. After some reading, I realized that I do have poor aerobic function and need to slow down. I don't mind controlling my pace for the majority of my miles, but I enjoy pushing the pace, and don't like walking. My 1-2 tempo runs per week are by far my favorite workout.

Could somebody please explain why it is so detrimental to aerobic development to have your heart rate go above your MAF? It's hard for me to believe that a tempo run a week, or having your heart rate tick up while climbing a hill on an easy run is going to hurt progress.

---

WOW! If you have the time and can read this whole thread you may get a little better understanding of the "physiology" of the concept. That being said, there are probably as many training ideas as there are runners. I had never heard of MAF until a yr ago or so. For some reason I found running 2-3 minutes slower than my 5K/10K race pace worked for me.

Whatever formula you come with--and it works for you--all the better. My over 3 decades of running has come about through a lot of EZ running. I just completed over 900 miles of MAF training(running almost 4 minutes slower than my current 5K times) over the last 4 months and feel stronger--have increased my days running from 5-6 and increased my mileage from 40-45 miles per week to 55-60 per week. Nick

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posted Sep-13-2007 05:44 PM               

quote:

---

Originally posted by 10smom62:
Somehow this post got posted as "new Topic" . I must have done something wrong. I meant to post here so here it is. Thanks to loopy for telling about the google search, I knew about that already but forgotten how to use. I still think it would help a lot if this thread could be a Topic Header. Please read below post thanks

Hey Jesse,

!st let me thank you for all the time you have spent starting and moderating this wonderful thread.

The information you and Jimmy are imparting is very important and invaluable. There are also many outstanding stories and questions from the followers of this program. However, Cool Running format and no search engine in the forum make it difficult to fully appreciate all the information in this thread. Have you approached the PTB at Cool Running to allow you to have a Topic header like Galloway does so it will be easy to see important question and comments being made and follow the progressions of those individual comments??

Also have you consider maybe moving the thread to a running forum that is more conducive to searching so it easier for people following this thread to find specific information they may be looking for without having to read entire thread ? Both of these possible options will also help prevent the same questions being asked and answered over and over again.

Thanks again for you time and considerations.

---

I'm glad it's been helpful. Really this thread has taken on a life of
its own and I've done my best to capture the elements of widest
applicability in the FAQ and I will continue to update as it seems
new common Qs and As come up. I can't really say I run this
thread - I just make it a point to start new versions when the
old ones get too big!
There are versions of a thread like this on many sites around
but I don't think any are as popular and hit as wide an audience
as here on CR. There have been various requests in the past
to make this a forum (or just HR training in general) in and of itself
but the main response to them was to create the "gear" forum,
which obviously has a very minimal relationship.
I believe the Galloway forum has a commercial connection so
there may be some CR/active partnership on that one that wouldn't
apply to this topic. I believe if you google some of the topics in
this discussion, you will likely hit the FAQ or this thread. Since
there's not really a money-making venture in this topic, this
spot is appealing because it's free! Who knows where things will
go in the future.

------------------
MyRunningLog
MyStuff
Low Heart Rate Training FAQ
My marathons and ultras
My races and reports

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posted Sep-13-2007 05:56 PM               

quote:

---

Originally posted by fjordrunner:
just wanted to report in after a long absence - i've been running MAF fairly consistently for the past year. in sept 06 i ran a 5K in 38.something; the same race one year later - 32.46! quite an improvement

i ran a half marathon in may at 2.57.54; i started too fast, and really faded in the last 3 miles. i have more long runs behind me now (3x10 miles, 2x12 miles, 1x13.1 miles), and am feeling more confident that i will be able to break three hours again, but would appreciate any strategy advice on how to plan my HR or pace through saturday's race. the course is "flat and rolling" and all my training has been on hills.

thanks for any advice,

---

Hi Susan - glad to see you back! I think our last discussion was
about icebugs. In either case, you can always try the Team Oregon
pace calculator as some have had success with it, but I really believe
that heart rate profiles during races are very individual and take some
trial and error at a given distance to know what to do. For a half
marathon, you want to start at a comfortably challenging pace for
2-3 miles, then move to a pace that's "kinda hard," followed by
"painful" for the last 3 miles. I hope that wasn't overly technical!
Not knowing what your anaerobic threshold is, it's really hard to
guess, but we can use my very rough approximation (that I'm
going to come up with right now). I'll assume that MAF heart rate
is about 85% of anaerobic threshold heart rate for an individual
that is well-trained aerobically, perhaps by MAFing for a while,
which you have been. Hence, I will crudely estimate that your
anaerobic threshold occurs at 1.18*(MAF heart rate), which I
will call AT_app. I will then crudely estimate that AT_app would
be a good estimate for your overall average heart rate for a
half marathon. Given that, absent anything else (other than
a *significant* amount of logic, thought, and careful self-assessment
during the race), you might start for the first 2-3 miles at about
AT_app-15 progressing through AT_app-5. Then let your heart
rate climb very slowly (1 or 2 beats per mile) until mile 10 or 11.
Then throw it all out there. When you climb hills, keep your
heart rate within 3 or 4 beats of where it was before the hill,
and when you go down, don't let it drop by more than 2 or 3 beats.
DISCLAIMER: This is an untested hypothesis - use at your
own risk!

------------------
MyRunningLog
MyStuff
Low Heart Rate Training FAQ
My marathons and ultras
My races and reports

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posted Sep-13-2007 06:14 PM               

quote:

---

Originally posted by Leadfeet:
What is the title of Phil Maffetones book? I know its in this huge thread, but I cant seem to find it. I've gone to amazon.com but there are a few of his books there.

Thanks

---

"In fitness and in health" (4th edition) is the main book but, "training for endurance" (2nd edition) goes into all the training and racing material discussed here. For those who want more technical reading, Maffetone has a textbook that goes into many of his ideas with extensive references ("complementary sports medicine"). "Fix your feet" is his book about feet ( ) and all the bad news you'd ever want about running shoes. His website (www.philmaffetone.com) I believe has links to get the books.

His website also has his music (he's a songwriter and has some great music).

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posted Sep-13-2007 08:22 PM            

I then did about 11 weeks of FIRST-style training: intervals once a week; tempo once a week; long runs once a week w/ HR in the 150s. I ran in 2:06, avg HR 175, and really hit the wall after 8-9 miles. Even though I PR'd by about 7 minutes, I was pretty unsatisfied. Part of my poor performance was from starting too fast (up the only hill on the course), but after reading a lot of this thread and the linked articles, I think part of it was poor aerobic conditition.

This is my first week of running purely sub-MAF, which is about 11 minutes per mile for me, I'll see how it goes.

One question: There seems to be three reasons for cardiac drift during a run (at the same pace):

1 - Body temperature increases, which means that the body sends more blood to the outer layer of the skin to disperse more heat, meaning that the heart needs to work harder to send the same amount of blood to the muscles.

2 - Dehydration causes blood volume to decrease, which requires the heart to work harder to get the same amount of oxygen to the muscles.

3 - Certain muscle fibers tire out, requiring the remaining fibers to work at a higher effort level.

Since LHR training is all about using the right effort (aerobic) effort level, and HR is a proxy for knowing the effort level, presumably one could ignore the part of cardiac drift from causes #1 & #2 above.

By the same token, a HR higher than "MAF heart rate" due to a higher outside temperature may not necessarily indicate that the effort level is above MAF. Any thoughts?

Oh, one more thing: I see a lot of people posting that they alternate walk/run to keep HR below MAF. This actually strikes me as mild interval training. If that running effort is bringing HR quickly up from walking HR to MAF HR, then that jog is actually above MAF effort level, and probably not bringing much aerobic benefit.

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posted Sep-13-2007 08:35 PM               

quote:

---

Originally posted by Angostura:

1 - Body temperature increases, which means that the body sends more blood to the outer layer of the skin to disperse more heat, meaning that the heart needs to work harder to send the same amount of blood to the muscles.

2 - Dehydration causes blood volume to decrease, which requires the heart to work harder to get the same amount of oxygen to the muscles.

3 - Certain muscle fibers tire out, requiring the remaining fibers to work at a higher effort level.

Since LHR training is all about using the right effort (aerobic) effort level, and HR is a proxy for knowing the effort level, presumably one could ignore the part of cardiac drift from causes #1 & #2 above.

By the same token, a HR higher than "MAF heart rate" due to a higher outside temperature may not necessarily indicate that the effort level is above MAF. Any thoughts?

Oh, one more thing: I see a lot of people posting that they alternate walk/run to keep HR below MAF. This actually strikes me as mild interval training. If that running effort is bringing HR quickly up from walking HR to MAF HR, then that jog is actually above MAF effort level, and probably not bringing much aerobic benefit.

---

Whether it's due to heart rate drift, overtraining, or whatever, above
MAF is above MAF, corresponding to higher usage of carbs during
the run, so if you really want to follow this approach, you'll need to
stay under MAF the entire time. That's not to say other approaches
won't give you some kind of a positive training effect, but if you really
want to see the benefits of this form of training, you'll need to stay
strict with it. I'm not aware of people that are following this approach
by going over MAF frequently (or semi-frequently) then walking. That
wouldn't be the proper way to follow this approach either. Popping
over once or twice here and there is a different story.

------------------
MyRunningLog
MyStuff
Low Heart Rate Training FAQ
My marathons and ultras
My races and reports

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posted Sep-13-2007 09:37 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by leitnerj:
I'll assume that MAF heart rate
is about 85% of anaerobic threshold heart rate for an individual
that is well-trained aerobically, perhaps by MAFing for a while,
which you have been. Hence, I will crudely estimate that your
anaerobic threshold occurs at 1.18*(MAF heart rate), which I
will call AT_app. I will then crudely estimate that AT_app would
be a good estimate for your overall average heart rate for a
half marathon.

---

FWIW, my experience is close to this - but more like 86% and 1.16 - if I've estimated it right.

I've done enough running to know that my max HR is 188 (although I was pleasantly surprised to learn this - this week - I was assuming 183 or 184). My AT is at 168; which is easy to tell - given my breathing and general feel. My MAF is about 145.

So... take it for what its worth.

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posted Sep-13-2007 11:05 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by Angostura:

I've decided to give lower heart rate training a try after a disappointing half marathon performance a couple of weeks ago, My first half was in June, before which I did most of my training in the 150-160 range (my MAF is 146). I finished in 2:13, avg HR of 165, ran negative splits for each 5k, and felt OK.

I then did about 11 weeks of FIRST-style training: intervals once a week; tempo once a week; long runs once a week w/ HR in the 150s. I ran in 2:06, avg HR 175, and really hit the wall after 8-9 miles. Even though I PR'd by about 7 minutes, I was pretty unsatisfied. Part of my poor performance was from starting too fast (up the only hill on the course), but after reading a lot of this thread and the linked articles, I think part of it was poor aerobic conditition.

This is my first week of running purely sub-MAF, which is about 11 minutes per mile for me, I'll see how it goes.

One question: There seems to be three reasons for cardiac drift during a run (at the same pace):

1 - Body temperature increases, which means that the body sends more blood to the outer layer of the skin to disperse more heat, meaning that the heart needs to work harder to send the same amount of blood to the muscles.

2 - Dehydration causes blood volume to decrease, which requires the heart to work harder to get the same amount of oxygen to the muscles.

3 - Certain muscle fibers tire out, requiring the remaining fibers to work at a higher effort level.

Since LHR training is all about using the right effort (aerobic) effort level, and HR is a proxy for knowing the effort level, presumably one could ignore the part of cardiac drift from causes #1 & #2 above.

By the same token, a HR higher than "MAF heart rate" due to a higher outside temperature may not necessarily indicate that the effort level is above MAF. Any thoughts?

Oh, one more thing: I see a lot of people posting that they alternate walk/run to keep HR below MAF. This actually strikes me as mild interval training. If that running effort is bringing HR quickly up from walking HR to MAF HR, then that jog is actually above MAF effort level, and probably not bringing much aerobic benefit.

---

Overthinking it a bit, which isn't unusual around here. This program is so simple, that it boggles the mind, and it must search for countless dissections, explanations, and equations to fill the void. Just figure out your MAF and stay under it. Drift, dehydration, and dripping dingleberries are all included in the final sum of heart beats that should be below the MAF. See what happens over time. My experience is that the wall disappears, drift becomes minimized, and my inner thighs rub together less and less.

Good luck. Keep going!

--Jimmy

MAF log
sweet, sweet narcissism

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posted Sep-14-2007 10:30 AM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by jjwaverly42:
and my inner thighs rub together less and less.

---

And that folks, in a nutshell, is what it's all about.

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posted Sep-14-2007 10:35 AM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by Long Run Nick:
WOW! If you have the time and can read this whole thread you may get a little better understanding of the "physiology" of the concept. That being said, there are probably as many training ideas as there are runners. I had never heard of MAF until a yr ago or so. For some reason I found running 2-3 minutes slower than my 5K/10K race pace worked for me.

Whatever formula you come with--and it works for you--all the better. My over 3 decades of running has come about through a lot of EZ running. I just completed over 900 miles of MAF training(running almost 4 minutes slower than my current 5K times) over the last 4 months and feel stronger--have increased my days running from 5-6 and increased my mileage from 40-45 miles per week to 55-60 per week. Nick

---

Actually, I have read the thread, as well as the material it has referenced. The question is not whether aerobic training is beneficial. The question is why is an occasional "violation" during an easy run or doing a relatively small percentage of miles at a faster pace so detrimental? Maffetone offers this in his article:

"There may be several reasons why anaerobic workouts can inhibit aerobic base building:

Anaerobic training can decrease the number of aerobic muscle fibers, sometimes significantly. This can happen in just a few short weeks of higher heart rate training.
The lactic acid produced during anaerobic training may inhibit the aerobic muscle enzymes necessary for building an aerobic base.
Anaerobic training raises your respiratory quotient. This means the percentage of energy derived from sugar increases and fat burning decreases. In time, this may force more anaerobic metabolism and less aerobic function."

This statement in itself could hardly be used to argue that going over your MAF heartrate for relatively small periods of time would set you back aerobically.

Does anybody have any thoughts? Do any of you use this method, along with some faster work with success?

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posted Sep-14-2007 11:48 AM               

quote:

---

Originally posted by ATLrunner:
Actually, I have read the thread, as well as the material it has referenced. The question is not whether aerobic training is beneficial. The question is why is an occasional "violation" during an easy run or doing a relatively small percentage of miles at a faster pace so detrimental? Maffetone offers this in his article:

"There may be several reasons why anaerobic workouts can inhibit aerobic base building:

Anaerobic training can decrease the number of aerobic muscle fibers, sometimes significantly. This can happen in just a few short weeks of higher heart rate training.
The lactic acid produced during anaerobic training may inhibit the aerobic muscle enzymes necessary for building an aerobic base.
Anaerobic training raises your respiratory quotient. This means the percentage of energy derived from sugar increases and fat burning decreases. In time, this may force more anaerobic metabolism and less aerobic function."

This statement in itself could hardly be used to argue that going over your MAF heartrate for relatively small periods of time would set you back aerobically.

Does anybody have any thoughts? Do any of you use this method, along with some faster work with success?

---

I add anaerobic workouts when my aerobic base is well developed (as per the MAF test).

I'm not sure which writing you got Maffetone's quote from, but it's accurate in my experience. All these issues (you quoted) inhibit aerobic function, although it's a matter of how much. I think the key word is stress. Those with higher stress levels can't go over their MAF HR without adverse affects on progress compared to those with lower levels of stress (who can "get away" with more stress).

Much more important is the issue of finding your correct MAF HR. It seems that many people here (and in my experience with many athletes I've worked with) use the 180 formula incorrectly. This would be the single most common reason for little or no improvement in their MAF tests.

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posted Sep-14-2007 11:52 AM            

4 miles very slow, HR 78.

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posted Sep-14-2007 11:56 AM               

quote:

---

Originally posted by BrandonE:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by DavidD:
[B]Humidity (water) in the air does two things. It reduces the amount of air you take into your lungs (which may reduce the amount of O2 you take in), and it's a physical barrier we have to run through (adding a bit of stress which may only be significant in a very long run or race).

Also, when the water content of the air is higher, it's often associated with a lower barometric pressure, and further (albeit slightly) reduces oxygen uptake. (It's like being at high altitude where the same amount of O2 is in the air but the pressure is lower so we can't get as much.)

---

I don't buy the physical barrier part. The water in the air is all in vapor form (assuming the humidity is less than 100% - if you're running in the rain, ok I'll buy the barrier argument). The viscosity (resistance to motion) of water vapor is indistinguishable from that of air. I think the action is all in the transport of oxygen, which it certainly does affect.

I'll admit I could be wrong, since I'm an inexperienced runner, but from engineering principles, I don't see the physical resistance being a legitimate claim.[/QUOTE]

You may be right about water vapor. But having run on too many northeastern high humidity days it seems the "resistance" factor is an issue as I would be drenched with water after just a few miles. And, my MAF test would always be a bit lower compared to dryer locations. (Of course, barometric issues can account for that too.)

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posted Sep-14-2007 12:01 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by ATLrunner:
Actually, I have read the thread, as well as the material it has referenced. The question is not whether aerobic training is beneficial. The question is why is an occasional "violation" during an easy run or doing a relatively small percentage of miles at a faster pace so detrimental? Maffetone offers this in his article:

"There may be several reasons why anaerobic workouts can inhibit aerobic base building:

Anaerobic training can decrease the number of aerobic muscle fibers, sometimes significantly. This can happen in just a few short weeks of higher heart rate training.
The lactic acid produced during anaerobic training may inhibit the aerobic muscle enzymes necessary for building an aerobic base.
Anaerobic training raises your respiratory quotient. This means the percentage of energy derived from sugar increases and fat burning decreases. In time, this may force more anaerobic metabolism and less aerobic function."

This statement in itself could hardly be used to argue that going over your MAF heartrate for relatively small periods of time would set you back aerobically.

Does anybody have any thoughts? Do any of you use this method, along with some faster work with success?

---

I would guess that Ryan Hall, Deena Kastor and Meb are going over
their MAF heartrate while training at threshold in their base, and not
being set back aerobically.

But then Hall would be racing 13.1 miles @ 4:33 a mile, and not
trying to do an 8 hour Ironman.

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posted Sep-14-2007 12:46 PM               

quote:

---

Originally posted by fredurie:
Friday

4 miles very slow, HR 78.

---

Is this an error? A sign of severe burnout/overtraining? Are you in really great aerobic shape? What's your MAF pace?

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posted Sep-14-2007 12:47 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by ATLrunner:
Actually, I have read the thread, as well as the material it has referenced. The question is not whether aerobic training is beneficial. The question is why is an occasional "violation" during an easy run or doing a relatively small percentage of miles at a faster pace so detrimental? Maffetone offers this in his article:

"There may be several reasons why anaerobic workouts can inhibit aerobic base building:

Anaerobic training can decrease the number of aerobic muscle fibers, sometimes significantly. This can happen in just a few short weeks of higher heart rate training.
The lactic acid produced during anaerobic training may inhibit the aerobic muscle enzymes necessary for building an aerobic base.
Anaerobic training raises your respiratory quotient. This means the percentage of energy derived from sugar increases and fat burning decreases. In time, this may force more anaerobic metabolism and less aerobic function."

This statement in itself could hardly be used to argue that going over your MAF heartrate for relatively small periods of time would set you back aerobically.

Does anybody have any thoughts? Do any of you use this method, along with some faster work with success?

---

One of the misconceptions about Maffetone training is that all you ever do is run under your MAF. The program included anaerobic training after a an aerobic base period. Although, sometimes the aerobic base period needs to go on for awhile in order to establish a good base. At some point you have to do some races! That's what this is all about--better race performances, and staying healthy while getting there.

After the base period, which can be 8-12-16 or more weeks, you start to include higher heart rates. Maffetone sets a ceiling at 90% MHR, I think, I'll have to check. In the 6-8 weeks before the marathon, I have found success with adding lactate threshold runs, marathon race pace runs, and long runs with some higher heart rates in the last 3rd of the run.. Still keeping 85-90% of my weekly miles below MAF.

As Jesse will attest to, and Maffetone as well, and well me too, at some point during race season you will begin to see a decline in your aerobic system. Your MAF tests will begin to decline. Especially if you are doing regular speedwork in between races.

Why does this happen? Who cares. Just does.

Aerobic base periods are the cure.

Keep going!

--Jimmy

MAF log
pictures of my back

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posted Sep-14-2007 12:51 PM               

quote:

---

Originally posted by fredurie:
Friday

4 miles very slow, HR 78.

---

Friday, drinking beer, HR 79.

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