posted Sep-11-2007 10:10 AM               

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posted Sep-11-2007 12:29 PM               

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posted Sep-11-2007 12:31 PM               

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posted Sep-11-2007 01:02 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by KSC:
I have a question regarding my mileage per day. Saturday I ran 6 miles, Sun 13, took the last two days off due to work, and plan on running 6 miles the next two days to put me at 31 miles for the week. I like to train five days a week since I always feel like I need a day off after my long runs due to sore achilies tendons and knees- I always feel like I have the energy and don't have any discomfort while walking, but I feel it while going down the stairs so I take a precautionary day off to fully recover.
To maximize the physiological adaptations gained from LHR training, is there an optimal way to split mileage throughout the week? Should I balance the distance of my runs or stick with the long run and 4 shorter runs? Should I do a long run, a mid distance run and 3 shorts? I like to keep up with the long runs since I'm going to be running the Atlanta Marathon on Thanksgiving (although I am probably going to opt for the 1/2 since I don't want to hurt myself increases mileage too quickly to be ready).
Since stopping my no-pain, no-gain approach, I've been able to extend my long runs by 5 miles and increase my weekly mileage by the same number in only 3 weeks. I haven't gained much in the way of speed at my MAF pace but am definitely able to maintain a decent pace for much longer at the same heartrate instead of quickly fading. When I started, I would do my 8 mile long runs starting around 8:30 per mile and would fade to nearly 10:00 per mile at the end. I started my 13 miler with an 8:28m/m for the first mile and finished at at 9:17m/m.

Thanks for the advice, this thread has definitely turned my running approach 180 degrees for the better. Since reading it I've bought heatrate monitors for me and my wife and have devoted hours of reading to the subject. Running was a borderline arduous neccessity for my job, now it's an enjoyment that I look forward to with optimism.

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I don't know if it's the right way but this is how I increased my mileage with LHR training over the last year.

When I started LHR running I was doing 1 long run and 4 shorter runs (25 - 30 mpw). Within a few months I worked up to 1 long, 1 mid, and 3 shorter (30 - 35 mpw).

This summer I reduced to 4 days a week: 1 long, 1 mid, 2 shorter with the focus on increasing the long and mid length runs (35 - 40 mpw). For the last month I've been increasing the shorter runs: 1 long and 3 mid (35 - 45 mpw).

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posted Sep-11-2007 01:06 PM            

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posted Sep-11-2007 01:09 PM               

quote:

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Originally posted by Gregolowe:
Okay, thanks to everyone for the info on race pacing. I would love to hear from more of you ultra runners who do this training.
I think I'm going to try and keep my HR below 155 for the race and see what that does for me (MAF is 142). I should be able to still jog most of the race that way, minimizing walking, and hike the hills. If my stomach holds out, then I think I'll be okay. I can't imagine doing 50 miles in the same way I did the 30 last weekend- jog 100 yards, walk 50 to let hr come down, repeat. That about drove me insane. I felt great, no problems. But mentally it was tough. The only time I've experienced naseau on my long runs is before I started the low hr training. Probably due to systemic acid overload/stress overload. I'm going to bring antacids and pain killers to the race and hope that'll help. My only fear is my anaerobic abilities have diminished over the last 2 months which will leave me with no choice but to go aerobic the whole time. We'll see. My dream time for VT50-10 hours. If trouble brews-12. I will finish barring a crippling injury, God help me.

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A 50 miler should be all aerobic. Don't go above your MAF. You'll be able to run more and walk less. Start out even slower and build to your MAF. Walk the hills. Most importantly, have fun!

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posted Sep-11-2007 01:11 PM            

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posted Sep-11-2007 02:18 PM               

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posted Sep-11-2007 04:55 PM               

quote:

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Originally posted by willamona:
Ok, my half marathon PR moved from 2:13:xx to 1:46:xx this weekend. It was hot as hell though. The goal for next month's marathon is to BQ. So a 3:45 or better.

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You are all over it.

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posted Sep-11-2007 04:56 PM            

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posted Sep-11-2007 05:22 PM               

quote:

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Originally posted by DavidD:
A 50 miler should be all aerobic. Don't go above your MAF. You'll be able to run more and walk less. Start out even slower and build to your MAF. Walk the hills. Most importantly, have fun!

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That's certainly a reasonable and conservative first
approach, but far from a general
rule. Other than stopping at the aid stations (which is fully
expected from virtually everyone, including the front runners),
I've completely run
the last 2 JFK 50 milers with no walking at all, even on the steep
hills (although there were a few very slow wogs!), at heart rates
well above MAF (as shown above). I also ran the first 63 miles of the
Umstead 100 with no walking either (other than stopping at aid stations again), and once again, quite a bit above MAF. So, for the first attempt
or couple of attempts, that's reasonable, but there's no reason to always
stay below MAF once you want to start moving more towards racing
ultras. Also, other than frequent races, I never do training runs
longer than 20 or 21 miles, although I'll run them on back-to-back days.

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posted Sep-11-2007 05:31 PM               

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Originally posted by Gregolowe:
I was just on the website looking at the distances and cutoffs. If I go at MAF, I will be flirting with the cutoffs all day. To finish in 12 hours, you have to maintain a 4.12mph pace. For the 50K I ran Saturday, I finished in 7:57:11, a pace of 15:50/mile, or 3.75 mph. I will not finish in time. I have never questioned my ability to finish the race. I know I will. But I don't think I can run at MAF and do it. I never planned on doing this race at MAF. It has been my goal all year. I started the low hr training after reading the thread. I've done 8 weeks of it so far. I asked on the thread whether it would be beneficial to start so close to the race and everybody agreed it would be. After VT, I will run low hr till spring to really focus on building my base. So I'm not worried about hurting the "base" I've developed so far (if I've even developed one). From the postings I;m getting it sounds like some doubt whether an ultra can be done above MAF successfully. Is that true? Will running above my MAF threaten my ability to finish? I'm not talking about redlining it here. I'm talking MAF+10-15, walking the hills, jogging the flats and running the downs. I know I'll be eating into glycogen more quickly, but shouldn't I be able to eat and keep up my energy, maybe mixing in walk breaks if I have to? Let me know what ya'll think. Thanks!

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Sounds like a good plan for a good winter base. But the race itself? Seems like you need a plan for where you are regarding your fitness. I think avoiding the big heart rate peaks is very important. If you can get to the last 10 miles where you're feeling good enough to start passing people, you'll be fine.

With 8 weeks of aerobic training, it will help you as much as your aerobic system is working well. But that's the goal of the winter base. You should be able to take MINUTES off your MAF times (mile times), otherwise, something is wrong.

Let us know how it goes.

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posted Sep-11-2007 08:40 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by bluelake:
WOW willamona! Great job! Next...Olympics?

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I guess I could drive to Vancouver....

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posted Sep-12-2007 05:03 AM               

My first post here, so first I would like to thank you all for a very interesting thread.

btw.. Sorry if my spelling if off.. English is my third language.

I have just started working out for long distance running (used to play badminton, which is almost all interval training, but have had a long break).

My goal is marathon/Iron man distances.

I have so far done 2 runs at a low heart rate.
7,25 and 8 miles. at around 10,45 to 11 min a mile pace which to me is just very very slow, and very hard for me to hold myself back.

I am 29 years old, so I run up to 151-156.
180 - 29 and plus 5 for working out 6 times a week.

Is this all correct.. And how long before I see results.

My goal is a 4 hour marathon, so as you can se.. Have a long way to go.

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posted Sep-12-2007 08:07 AM            

quote:

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Originally posted by willamona:
Ok, my half marathon PR moved from 2:13:xx to 1:46:xx this weekend. It was hot as hell though. The goal for next month's marathon is to BQ. So a 3:45 or better.

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Well done!

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posted Sep-12-2007 09:54 AM            

quote:

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Originally posted by henrikker:
Hi..

My first post here, so first I would like to thank you all for a very interesting thread.

btw.. Sorry if my spelling if off.. English is my third language.

I have just started working out for long distance running (used to play badminton, which is almost all interval training, but have had a long break).

My goal is marathon/Iron man distances.

I have so far done 2 runs at a low heart rate.
7,25 and 8 miles. at around 10,45 to 11 min a mile pace which to me is just very very slow, and very hard for me to hold myself back.

I am 29 years old, so I run up to 151-156.
180 - 29 and plus 5 for working out 6 times a week.

Is this all correct.. And how long before I see results.

My goal is a 4 hour marathon, so as you can se.. Have a long way to go.

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You are going at it exactly right. Expect some soreness as your muscles adapt to the slower running style. That is very temporary. You might consider using 151 as your upper limit. I think Mark Allen or Maffetone has made the +5 addition a little more strict. Also a lot of folks including myself see great results at MAF - 5. Results will come fairly quickly if you are putting in the miles.

Also, I know what you mean about Badminton. Those intervals of running to the keg and running to the fried chicken and then back to the badminton game and throw in some lawn darts on top of that...

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posted Sep-12-2007 10:33 AM               

quote:

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Originally posted by willamona:
Ok, my half marathon PR moved from 2:13:xx to 1:46:xx this weekend. It was hot as hell though. The goal for next month's marathon is to BQ. So a 3:45 or better.

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Wow! That's awesome, congratulations! 3:45 is very possible next month. Best part of it all is when you improve that much in a short time period, you can bet there's lot's more improvement to come. Good running, and good luck in your marathon.

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posted Sep-12-2007 04:08 PM            

Background: After doing a lot of training at MAF or below; with a culmination of 11 weeks with a total of 862 miles - I'm sliding into some interval work toward sharpening for my goal marathon on Oct 21. Keep in mind; in the 11 weeks with the 862 miles, I did 99% or so of my running below MAF.

Interval sessions: Last week, I did my first "interval" session - MAF is roughly 144 or 145 for me. I did an 8 mile run; with 4 miles of "faster than MAF" running interspersed. Today, I did my second "interval" session. It was an 11.5 mile run, with 6 miles of "faster than MAF" running interspersed. For each faster segment; my heart rate peaked at between 162 and 174. After finishing each fast segment, I walked until my heart rate got below 140, then jogged for 5-7 minutes until the heart rate stabilized around 130ish. At that point; I launched into the next set.

Discovery #1: I was pleasantly surprised that my heart rate always came back down to around 130. All this aerobic base work has provided a recovery capability that I didn't have previously.

Discovery #2: I also found out that my max heart rate is higher than I previously thought. I've posted several times that my max HR is 183; which I got in an all-out 2 mile race in June (last real speed effort before the mileage upswing). Yet, toward the tail end of today's 11.5 mile session; since I was tired from testing the heart on the 6 mile pick-ups, I thought I'd give an all-out effort over the last 1/2 mile to see if I could pick up a max HR reading. My heart monitor peaked very briefly at 188; holding 187 for about 4 or 5 seconds. At that point, I felt like I was going to fall over - so I slowed quickly and gingerly walked it in. Maybe the only way to know max heart rate is to really, really stress the heart in the run and give a final push when tired.

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posted Sep-12-2007 06:10 PM               

If so do you think it would be possible,wise,stupid to run a half marathon nine days into the test,someones asked me to run one with them this Sunday.

I've done enough miles running and biking so the distance wouldn't normaly be a problem just havn't done much since I started the test.

Thanks Mike

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posted Sep-12-2007 06:15 PM               

quote:

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Originally posted by mike coogan:
Hi,
Anyone here done the MAFF two week food test(basically don't eat carbs for two weeks),not a diet a carb tolerance test.

If so do you think it would be possible,wise,stupid to run a half marathon nine days into the test,someones asked me to run one with them this Sunday.

I've done enough miles running and biking so the distance wouldn't normaly be a problem just havn't done much since I started the test.

Thanks Mike

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I believe there's a big discussion on that in the carbo canteen
forum.

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posted Sep-12-2007 07:50 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by mike coogan:
Hi,
Anyone here done the MAFF two week food test(basically don't eat carbs for two weeks),not a diet a carb tolerance test.

If so do you think it would be possible,wise,stupid to run a half marathon nine days into the test,someones asked me to run one with them this Sunday.

I've done enough miles running and biking so the distance wouldn't normaly be a problem just havn't done much since I started the test.
Thanks Mike

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i did it a couple of times over the past few years. great thing to do. start with the questions, they are very interesting. maffetone has this in his book (forgot which one) but he has the two chapters on this posted on his website.

i maintained my aerobic training with no problem. i actually got faster the first time i did the test by about 40 seconds a mile after the second week.

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posted Sep-13-2007 07:07 AM               

Thank you for your reply..

Hehe.. I am not sure that our badminton training would match..

I have tried the 151 pace, but almost find myself walking at times, which just feel very wrong to me.

At k times around 7 minutes it just dosent feel like a workout.. Am I just to impatient and should wait the the results, or should I put some more miles on for better effect?

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posted Sep-13-2007 07:59 AM            

quote:

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Originally posted by henrikker:

Am I just to impatient and should wait the the results, or should I put some more miles on for better effect?

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Both.

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posted Sep-13-2007 08:01 AM            

I shaved a minute off my MAF pace last night with a low dew point/humidity versus a run a week earlier. But don't those two terms mean essentially the same thing? Or am I missing something?

Thanks!

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posted Sep-13-2007 09:03 AM            

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