posted Jul-05-2007 05:16 PM            

OK... you've got me thinking of a new slogan. I'm 44; I have 35,300 miles logged since I started keeping track (have run for 29 years; only kept logs for 25). I'm thinking 50 for 50! Let's get 50,000 miles in before I turn 51. You've got me psyched!

Actually... I doubt I'll run 15,000 miles in the next 6 years - although this year is going well... but what the heck.

I'm impressed that you're coming back well; and impressed you have a max HR of 200! I first got a heart rate monitor Christmas of 1992. I was 29 years old; and maxed out at 192 - never topped it; on various efforts it ranged from 190-192. This year, I got the new Garmin 305. Playing around with it a lot. My max is 183. I did a couple of all-out races and relays and that's it. So... I'm losing max beats as I get older like most people do, although fortunately not by 1 beat per year. 200!?! I haven't seen that since probably high school.

I'll support the Jesse for President campaign.

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posted Jul-05-2007 05:29 PM            

A little background: my father-in-law gave me a Garmin 302 as a gift almost 2 months ago. I'd lurked on this thread for a while and thought I'd give this program a try. I'm a 32 y/o male who'd leveled out on improving my times - a couple of seconds here and there, but nothing major. I read the FAQ at the beginning of the thread, calculated my target heartrate - 146 bpm - and set out, determined to slow down to speed up.

I immediately started enjoying my training runs more. However, I started to lose faith when my average pace dropped from 7.2 mph to 6.5 and lower in a controlled environment. It was so frustrating to slow down to a 4 mph shuffle uphill when I knew I could go faster. With determination, I stayed with this program religiously for the past 2 months logging anywhere from 20-30 mpw with an average long run of 9 miles on the weekend.

I entered the Peachtree Road Race (10k) before I started the program. When race day came around, I didn't have any high expectations. I thought a 48 minute time would be about the best I could do - my previous PR was 45:36 on a flat course in cooler weather. I started the race with no expectations and kept chanting "take it easy." Surprisingly, a 6:50 pace over the first 5k was easy. Granted it was all downhill, I still felt pretty good. The second half was the true test. I didn't know if I'd have anything left in the tank for the last uphill half.

Long story short, I finished with a 44:12, smashing my old PR by almost a minute and a half! I had enough left in the tank to turn in the last 1.2 miles at a 6:35 pace! Talk about shock and sheer joy. I haven't felt this charged up about a race since my first 5k!

I understand this program may not work for everybody. It takes patience and determination to train your body to slow down. However, the payoff was huge so for those of you that are doubting the program, keep your chin up and trust in your training.

I am looking forward to continuing the low heart rate program for the Columbus Marathon in October. I'll be sure to post my results in whatever incarnation this thread is in. Thank you to all who contributed to this thread. I couldn't/wouldn't have tried something this radical without your testimonies and encouragement.

For those of you who are interested, here are my splits and totals:

1.02 miles 7:25 8.2 mph avg hr157 max hr 168
1.00 miles 6:49 8.8 mph avg hr167 max hr 172
1.02 miles 6:46 9.0 mph avg hr171 max hr 178
start uphill half:
1.00 miles 7:23 8.1 mph avg hr180 max hr 184
.99 miles 7:21 8.1 mph avg hr182 max hr 185
1.29 miles 8:32 9.1 mph avg hr187 max hr 194

Totals:
6.31 mi 44:14 (little late on the stop) 8.6 mph avg hr174, max hr 194

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posted Jul-05-2007 06:11 PM               

quote:

---

Originally posted by dfcameron:

Jesse - I'm confused - how do you do it? Do you just slow down to get to MAF fast and then slow to stay at MAF? It takes me quite a while to get up to MAF. (Mine is around 145-147)

---

When I'm outside I work up to it pretty quickly, mainly because most
of my outdoor runs start with about 1/2 mile or more of moderately
steep climb. When my fitness is strong, I can keep within a few
beats of my target heart rate, no matter what the terrain is. Also,
I generally run at heart rates far less than MAF (which, prior
to surgery, would be 148 according to Maffetone or 153 according
to Mittleman), so I generally run low anyway.

Now, along those lines, as I've been phasing back into the running
after surgery, I've noticed two things. Of course my pace at low
HR has slowed down, probably by 1 min/mile on equal terrain,
to start. However, the biggest things I'm having difficulty with
are controlling heart rate on the hills and heart rate drift just a
few miles into my runs (mainly on the outdoor runs, so it may
be a heat/humidity/dehydration factor - I don't hydrate on runs
of 13 miles or less). After about 7 miles running outside, it's
a battle for me to keep my HR under control - a big change from
a few weeks ago.

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posted Jul-05-2007 06:12 PM               

quote:

---

Originally posted by mickoburger:
ANOTHER SUCCESS STORY!

...

For those of you who are interested, here are my splits and totals:

1.02 miles 7:25 8.2 mph avg hr157 max hr 168
1.00 miles 6:49 8.8 mph avg hr167 max hr 172
1.02 miles 6:46 9.0 mph avg hr171 max hr 178
start uphill half:
1.00 miles 7:23 8.1 mph avg hr180 max hr 184
.99 miles 7:21 8.1 mph avg hr182 max hr 185
1.29 miles 8:32 9.1 mph avg hr187 max hr 194

Totals:
6.31 mi 44:14 (little late on the stop) 8.6 mph avg hr174, max hr 194

---

Great news- congrats on the fantastic improvement! I would
guess it was very hot out as well as that race is usually
a scorcher. I hope you're able to see the same improvement
for your marathon.

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posted Jul-05-2007 11:38 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by leitnerj:
...and heart rate drift just a
few miles into my runs (mainly on the outdoor runs, so it may
be a heat/humidity/dehydration factor - I don't hydrate on runs
of 13 miles or less). After about 7 miles running outside, it's
a battle for me to keep my HR under control - a big change from a few weeks ago.

---

Wow. How much weight do you lose on those runs w/o hydration? I heard a talk by a physiologist about hydration and he said dehydration affects both blood volume and blood density/viscosity. He said it would have an effect on heart rate due to the workload on the heart. I have no idea what research (if any) supports this, but I'd be interested if anyone knows of studies that have been done on this kind of stuff.

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posted Jul-06-2007 05:54 AM            

My TT last night was an all-out effort, i.e. pretty much the best I can do on my current level of fitness (on a very low 20 to 30km per week at 6mpk except for TT). Using that in McMillans calc I get 1:17:15 for the 15k and 39:33 for the 8k. I did the last 8k of my 15k in 40m32, i.e my times for these distances are pretty spot-on according to McMillan.

Does that mean my aerobic fitness is pretty good even on such low "mileage"?

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posted Jul-06-2007 06:01 AM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by mickoburger:
ANOTHER SUCCESS STORY!

---

mickoburger- Congratulations on your race! We have a lot in common. Our 10k times (pre-MAF) are similar (I'm a minute slower), our age (my MAF is 146), when we started MAF-ing (8.5 weeks ago for me) and I too have my sights set on Columbus this fall (half or full).

I have a few questions if you have a minute.

1. Did you do any speedwork in the past 8 weeks in preparation for your 10k or did you stay strictly at or below MAF until the race?

2. Did you do much downhill running or short stride bursts to keep some leg turnover during the 8 weeks? With my ITBS problems (now mostly gone), I have not done as much leg turnover as I would have liked to and am wondering what you did since you obviously did something right.

3. Have you turned the corner yet on your MAF pace? If I understood correctly, you started MAF-ing at one pace and it has since dropped. Has the MAF pace started to increase yet or are you still stagnating?

The reason I ask is because my MAF pace was much faster initially (the first 2 weeks)- I think because when I first started, I was in very good 5k-10k shape (anaerobically, at least, from lots of intervals and tempo runs in preparation for a 10k race right before I started MAF-ing) and my fast twitch muscles were helping my pace at MAF quite a bit. Anyway, I have been mostly stagnant since the pace drop-off 2 weeks after starting this program. However, the slower paced runs seem more comfortable and natural now. I seem to be able to "control" my heart rate better (less of a spike up hills, when I speed up a little, etc.). I do a lot of elliptical and my elliptical "pace" at MAF is where I used to do elliptical "intervals" that would spike my HR up to 190+. I think I am just about to turn the corner as far as some slight below-MAF pace gains, but it is hard to tell for sure with the heat/humidity and the fact that my treadmill is broken.

[This message has been edited by Ace8 (edited Jul-06-2007).]

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posted Jul-06-2007 07:35 AM            

THank you for the congrats. It felt great to update the profile with the new time. One disclaimer here, just because it worked for me, doesn't mean this will work for you - regardless of our similarities. Results may vary. In my earlier post I was trying to convey patience for those suffering through the 15 minute miles and wondering if there really is a payoff. With that said - here's what I did:

I went above MAF twice in the 2 months. Once was for a 2 mile run for the APFT (army stuff) and the other was because I machoed up on an 11-miler with a couple of friends. I didn't go anaerobic on the training run, my max was in the low 170's. Other than that, I occasionally play softball and flag football which require short bursts, but nothing sustained and rarely (if ever) over MAF. I also would refrain from eating 3 hours before a run and only use water or sugarless green tea for hydration.

As far as your second question, I've been sequestered inside for the last month or so with all this heat. I guess the softball/flag football would be the short stride bursts. Before that, I was running a loop that had about a 1/4 mile downhill stretch.

My MAF pace is still slower than what my old training pace was. But my heart rate allows me to start faster and gradually lag to a slower pace. I've found that I can take some steps to prepare myself for the run. I am able to sustain a faster pace if I run 3-hours after lunch vs. 1st thing in the morning. I know the benefits of being properly hydrated. WIth that said, after seeing the results of my last race, I'm not too concerned if my MAF pace increases soon. My race time decreased so I have a lot more patience during the training runs. I've seen the payoff. For others, seeing the MAF pace pick up is the first benefit they witness.

I hope this helps. I don't know how conventional my methods were. I don't want to take anything away from the message of this board since so many others have a lot more experience and expertise in the field. When is your next race?

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posted Jul-06-2007 08:00 AM               

quote:

---

Originally posted by dfcameron:
Comment to Nick -

OK... you've got me thinking of a new slogan. I'm 44; I have 35,300 miles logged since I started keeping track (have run for 29 years; only kept logs for 25). I'm thinking 50 for 50! Let's get 50,000 miles in before I turn 51. You've got me psyched!

Actually... I doubt I'll run 15,000 miles in the next 6 years - although this year is going well... but what the heck.

I'm impressed that you're coming back well; and impressed you have a max HR of 200! I first got a heart rate monitor Christmas of 1992. I was 29 years old; and maxed out at 192 - never topped it; on various efforts it ranged from 190-192. This year, I got the new Garmin 305. Playing around with it a lot. My max is 183. I did a couple of all-out races and relays and that's it. So... I'm losing max beats as I get older like most people do, although fortunately not by 1 beat per year. 200!?! I haven't seen that since probably high school.

I'll support the Jesse for President campaign.

---

As far as max HR goes--I have a Kawaski heart. The highest I have seen mine is 207. There is alot of different views on Max HR. Some say it decreases with age. Some say the more fit you are it will decrease. The highest I ever got it on my bike was 187.

I struggle a little with formulas. You know the old 220-age. Even ole Maff 180-age. There are so many variables. It is just difficult for me to wrap around the idea that a 40 yr old with a max HR of 175 can run MAF pace around 140(35 beats from max HR. While an old fart like me would have to run a 117 (if I add 5 for 30 yrs of running +5 for being over 50 and 5 for being over 60 I have a MAF of 132. That is 68 beats from my max. So I would run at 61% max HR while the 40 yr old runs at 140-145 HR which is 80% of his max HR. I think Hadd gets a little closer.

I have enjoyed the last several months of training at around 132 HR. As I have mentioned in earlier posts, I have added a day of running per week and gone from 40-45 mile weeks to 55-60 mile weeks and feel great. I have also noticed my pace has speeded up at the same HR. This on just over 500 miles of LHR training.

I am glad you have jumped on the Jesse for President bandwagon. We will need to start a petition. I believe if called upon--he will serve. Nick

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posted Jul-06-2007 08:51 AM            

Thank you for posting your success story! I find it very encouraging to learn how other "beginners" are doing. When I'm slogging up a hill in this heat/humidity knowing that there might be a payoff really helps!

Before starting LHR training, a slow/recovery pace for me was 10:00. Now, my "normal" training pace is around 10:30. I've been increasingly concerned that what would have felt like an excruciatingly slow pace a few months ago now feels normal. How in the world will I ever be able to race?!?! I can't imagine running at past race paces ... and that has me worried.

On the plus side, I've stayed away from injury. Like Nick I just increased my running to 6 days/week and hope to hit 50 mpw this week. Those are both new highs for me.

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posted Jul-06-2007 09:33 AM            

Yeah... I agree on Maffetone. What he seems to have missed is that using percentages rather than subtracting works best.

I believe (for me) that my MAF has been consistently about 78% of my maximum HR over the years. Since my max heart rate has fallen by about 20 beats over the last 25 years, my MAF has fallen as well - but not as fast as Maffetone would lead you to believe.

Good to hear your training is stepping back up. I don't count weekly miles; I count monthly. Reason being, I'm an ultrarunner as well - and I might have a week of 80 miles (where I do a 30 mile run) followed by a week of 40 miles (no long run). I could say I run 60 miles/week on that - but I very rarely end up at 60. For June, I ran 260 miles in the month; and had 2 80 mile weeks - the other two were either easy or race weeks.

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posted Jul-06-2007 10:17 AM            

AM 30 minute warmup, 10 times 40 seconds hard (HR 162) with a 20 sec.
float, 5 minute jog (HR down to 116), 5 times 40 seconds hard with a 20
second float ( HR 150 at the end of the float ), 10 minute jog ( HR dropping
to 104 ), 72F and 83% humidity, no puke.

Friday

AM 1 hour and 45 minutes slow, *HR 84* , 62F

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posted Jul-06-2007 04:23 PM            

My tentative racing plan is:

Sept 8: 2.5 mile race (I do it every year)
Sept 15: 5k or half marathon
Oct 21: half marathon or marathon

So, I've got a few more MAF months. I might do a little something, maybe some fartlek, to wake up the fast twitch muscles in late August.

I know not everybody will have the same results, but your success story was helpful as I have no idea if I am gaining any aerobic endurance or not since my MAF pace is not increasing yet. Now at least I have your success to help me mentally, since we have so many similarities (including miles/week and long run length).

[This message has been edited by Ace8 (edited Jul-06-2007).]

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posted Jul-06-2007 06:28 PM               

quote:

---

Originally posted by slowgino:
Wow. How much weight do you lose on those runs w/o hydration? I heard a talk by a physiologist about hydration and he said dehydration affects both blood volume and blood density/viscosity. He said it would have an effect on heart rate due to the workload on the heart. I have no idea what research (if any) supports this, but I'd be interested if anyone knows of studies that have been done on this kind of stuff.

---

Thanks for asking! You caught me in a lie (well, not an intentional
one anyway). It just occurred to me that if the temperature outside
is greater than about 83-85, I will carry water if I'm going more than
about 8 miles (and I rarely run less than that). If I don't, it only takes
about 4 or 5 miles until my heart rate has drifted so high that my pace
slows down by around 2 min/mile. I have found that when my conditioning
is very high, I dehydrate at a much slower rate, but I still dehydrate.
I have returned from runs of 15 miles or more having lost over 15 lbs!
I notice than when I lose about 3% of more of body weight, I hit the point
where my heart rate has drifted so high, I can no longer even think about
running under a MAF target. A few details about dehydration for me:
Last year, I was running my long runs in the summer afternoon in
temps of around 100, to prepare for the Vermont 100. During my
first 100+ run, I carried my 3 liter camelbak. I drained it about 12 miles
in. By about 15 miles, I had slowed to a horrendous putter. Even
after finishing the 3 liters, I was about 15 lbs down when I returned.
It explained a lot!

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posted Jul-06-2007 06:30 PM               

quote:

---

Originally posted by Lannock:
Here are my most recent race times:
8k on 5/13/7 : 41:06
15k on 6/30/7 : 1:18:06
5k TT last night : 23:59

My TT last night was an all-out effort, i.e. pretty much the best I can do on my current level of fitness (on a very low 20 to 30km per week at 6mpk except for TT). Using that in McMillans calc I get 1:17:15 for the 15k and 39:33 for the 8k. I did the last 8k of my 15k in 40m32, i.e my times for these distances are pretty spot-on according to McMillan.

Does that mean my aerobic fitness is pretty good even on such low "mileage"?

---

Indeed it does, if your ultimate target is about 10 miles. Aerobic fitness
is a function of the longest distance you desire to run, so if you're able
to meet your predictions for that distance, you're right on target!

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posted Jul-07-2007 08:42 AM            

Josh

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posted Jul-07-2007 09:44 AM               

1. I now have a great answer for people who, when I tell them how slow I run, say "I can walk that fast!" - My walking heartrate (it's about 75 and pretty humid here right now) was 115, and it took a very very slow shuffle to keep my jogging HR under MAF (148 for me).

2. At this slow shuffle, my gait was altered and it sort of instantly tighted up areas that I'm not used to having problems with. Did others have to work up to jogging slowly so as not to injure themselves? Or was my pain today an anomoly?

Thanks - I actually loved going even slower - it's pretty freeing for a slow runner to not feel the need to always be "fast enough"

Leah

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posted Jul-07-2007 10:56 AM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by lmccoy:
Hey-
I'm giving this a try, being a slow runner over the last few years, always feeling like I get injured or side stiches or puke if I try to work on speed, it seems likely that I don't have the kind of aerobic base I need to really increase my speed. By slow runner, I mean 13-14mm over 3-5 miles, 3-5x per week, which is my usual for the last year. So I got a cheap HRM and went out for a run. 2 comments/questions:

1. I now have a great answer for people who, when I tell them how slow I run, say "I can walk that fast!" - My walking heartrate (it's about 75 and pretty humid here right now) was 115, and it took a very very slow shuffle to keep my jogging HR under MAF (148 for me).

2. At this slow shuffle, my gait was altered and it sort of instantly tighted up areas that I'm not used to having problems with. Did others have to work up to jogging slowly so as not to injure themselves? Or was my pain today an anomoly?

Thanks - I actually loved going even slower - it's pretty freeing for a slow runner to not feel the need to always be "fast enough"

Leah

---

I can relate. I am a barefoot runner and although I have been running for two years, I really was slow. 14 minute miles slow.

A few months ago, I picked up my cadence quite dramatically. I always try to run around 180 steps/minute (cadence=90). As soon as I did that, my miles went to 8 - 10 minutes. But my pulse would rise to 180 or so and I'd have to run/walk.

I decided to try Maffetone and actually ended up gravitating to Mittleman who I think is a bit better refined in terms of what I refer to a low aerobic and maximum aerobic zone just for ease of conversation. My low aerobic is around 110-129 and my max aerobic is 129-139 (MAF=139) or so I calculated with Stu's formulas more or less. He gives you pretty good guidelines as to how you should perceive that level of effort and how your senses will guide you.

First week, I could run only about 30 feet or so between walking. But I always, always maintain fast cadence. Yesterday I could run much longer periods within the MAF zone but I always did very fast cadence. I ran very, very small steps, as if I was wearing a tight skirt. I figure as I progress, I'll re-introduce some forward lean and run faster and faster within the zone.

I am very excited about this because I can see real progress.

My point is to consider picking up your cadence and making smaller steps. It's a much better way to run anyway.

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posted Jul-07-2007 01:56 PM            

Today, its hitting 93 degrees where I live. I'm a terrible hot weather runner; never been able to acclimate well. OTOH, I've finished a 50K where the high was 6 degrees. Anyway... in ideal conditions, I run about 8:40 min/mi pace at MAF. Today it was 11:00 min/mi pace.

Without the HRM (Heart Rate Monitor) I would have been pushing harder. Instead, I stuck to sub-MAF, and then came home and mowed the lawn.

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posted Jul-07-2007 03:19 PM               

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posted Jul-07-2007 03:31 PM               

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posted Jul-07-2007 03:41 PM               

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posted Jul-07-2007 03:46 PM               

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posted Jul-07-2007 03:51 PM               

It looks like I have been mostly training by low heart rate methods. I did it by getting rid of my watch (another problem with the marathon) and just taking it easy for most runs. I usually put in one run every week or two at more of a tempo pace though. Now, I'm thinking I'll go ahead and lay down the 8-12 week low heart rate base before I add any tempo work going into my December marathon. I'm excited to see how it goes.

In the short term, I find that the HRM has already helped solve my watch problem. Always before, if I ran with a watch I would start racing it..."Let's see, if it's 5 miles and I can run at x:xx pace I can be back before xx:xx." Now I have the benefit of keeping track of my times but I only watch the heart rate and keep it below 150 (except for during horsefly attacks...). Very helpful. Looking forward to seeing how the next phase of training goes.

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posted Jul-07-2007 04:03 PM               

quote:

---

Originally posted by rhoon phast:
Well...I got a HRM recently because I overreacted after bonking at Mayor's Marathon 2 weeks ago. Thought maybe if I had a HRM I would have been able to keep myself a little more in line. Since then I haven't found a lot of guidance for racing with a HRM, but I have been wading through the various heart rate training theories.

It looks like I have been mostly training by low heart rate methods. I did it by getting rid of my watch (another problem with the marathon) and just taking it easy for most runs. I usually put in one run every week or two at more of a tempo pace though. Now, I'm thinking I'll go ahead and lay down the 8-12 week low heart rate base before I add any tempo work going into my December marathon. I'm excited to see how it goes.

In the short term, I find that the HRM has already helped solve my watch problem. Always before, if I ran with a watch I would start racing it..."Let's see, if it's 5 miles and I can run at x:xx pace I can be back before xx:xx." Now I have the benefit of keeping track of my times but I only watch the heart rate and keep it below 150 (except for during horsefly attacks...). Very helpful. Looking forward to seeing how the next phase of training goes.

---

I think you've hit on the problem that many of the people fix by
getting the heart rate monitor, which, really, is purely a psychological
one. The thought that goes something like this, "I can't possibly
bare the shame of finishing a training run at less than an 8 min/mi
pace." It doesn't matter if it's 95 degrees, 50 degrees, or 5 degrees,
rain, wind, shine, 10000 ft of elevation gain, whatever. It doesn't
matter if the person is sick, overtrained, or just severely fatigued.
It's a fear that if you finish a training run having been 30 sec/mile
slower than usual, you're moving in the wrong direction no matter
what, and you have to make up for it. Aside from the training, I feel
like I've really learned how to optimize my racing with the heart rate
monitor. I can race without it, but I can race much better with it.

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