posted Sep-05-2007 11:26 PM               

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Originally posted by DavidD:
Getting hungry during a relatively short aerobic run (or early in a long aerobic run) may be a symptom of poor fat burning, but it could also mean you're too anaerobic.

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I've only started experiencing hunger problems on short runs in the last couple of weeks. My training hasn't changed at all- MAF for me is 146, and if I climb above that (which doesn't usually happen very often), I immediately start to walk. My average HR on all of my runs is 136-138. None of this has changed, but suddenly, I'm getting hungry early on in my runs. Could I suddenly be more anaerobic at heart rates at which I used to be aerobic? Why would this happen? Could all the stress I've been under have something to do with it (allergies, work and emotional stress)? Should I slow down even more until allergy season is over, and life settles down for me a little?

I though it would be a good idea to slow down and try to stay at MAF-10 for a while until the allergies have eased up. I think all the other stress will take care of itself, now that I'm on vacation. I ran 6 miles yesterday, trying to stay at MAF-10, and it was absolutely miserable. By the end, I was having trouble even staying at MAF-5. Ugh.

I'd really love to know how all of you handle unexpected situations like this. I know that for someone who has a chronic health condition or is on medication, the target HR should be 180-age-10. But what if you are healthy when you start low HR training, and you start out using a target HR of 180-age, and then you develop a condition (like allergies, in my case) that requires you to take medication, and leaves you feeling worn out and generally crappy all the time? Would you: 1) train at a lower HR and maintain your mileage, or 2) would you stay at your usual target HR, and reduce your mileage until you feel better? The first option has already proven to be very frustrating, but I'll do it if its the better option of the two. I kind of like option 2 a little better, but after being so successful at increasing my weekly mileage over the last couple of months, that would be a little disheartening as well. Please advise!!!

Oh- one more question. I am about due to repeat my MAF test, but I'm almost afraid of how the results would look. Should I do it now, or delay it for a while until things settle down?

Thanx everyone!
Pam

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posted Sep-06-2007 08:51 AM               

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posted Sep-06-2007 12:43 PM               

People often talk about losing weight for a marathon, but you want to burn off body fat. Sure, if you're too heavy for your structure reducing weight may be good, but not at the expense of muscle. Ideally, one wants to burn off body fat which would make someone LOOK like they're lost weight, even though they didn't lose much weight.

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Originally posted by Acb8d2:
Can you explain that first part a little more? I'm in the boat where I want to drop BF not so much weight persay and I am finding that I'm hungrier as I up the mileage...what does too anaerobic mean? And is slower running the way to improve fat burning? Sorry I couldn't read the 30 previous pages if you did answer this already!

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If your body is aerobically developed, and you're out for an aerobic run, you should be burning a lot of fat and not as much sugar. But, if you don't burn enough fat you'll use too much sugar (glycogen and even some blood sugar) for energy. This will make you hungry.

Too anaerobic means you're burning too much sugar and not enough fat, typically because you're running too fast for your metabolism (it could be 7 minute pace or 17 minute pace depending on the person).

So you may need to slow down to the point where you're burning more fat (and training your body to do that even when you're not running). This thread discusses that, especially the part about the 180 formula and being honest with finding your number.

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posted Sep-06-2007 12:46 PM               

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posted Sep-06-2007 02:01 PM            

I'm just finishing C25k week 9 this week. I started out running harder, but slowed down after reading this thread during wk5.

What I'm finding during my runs now (all on TM at the Y, so climate controlled) is that at some point past the halfway mark, my HR starts to rise. From reading this thread I've gathered that's normal and that it's at least partially due to my body's response to my internal temperature increase. I've been going over MAF a little during these periods, though I try to minimize it. My MAF is 149, but I sometimes end up at 153 for short periods (<1min usually).

Also, I had been exercising regularly (5days/wk) for 4 or 5 months before starting C25k, enough for my resting HR to have dropped from ~75 to ~60, but I didn't allow myself the 5 points for exercising more than a year since it hadn't been that long, though I wondered if my progress may have warranted it at that point. Prior to running, all my exercise was on the elliptical trainer, doing a program from the Precor website, as well as some HIIT/Tabata workouts on the elliptical.

My question is, does allowing my HR to drift up even briefly hurt my aerobic base building? I'm running slow already (was 14:17mm, now running at 15mm), so I really don't relish the thought of slowing down more to stay below MAF. Is it allowable or advisable to allow this drift to go up? I haven't done a MAF test yet. Should I?

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posted Sep-06-2007 04:56 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by BrandonE:
My question is, does allowing my HR to drift up even briefly hurt my aerobic base building? I'm running slow already (was 14:17mm, now running at 15mm), so I really don't relish the thought of slowing down more to stay below MAF. Is it allowable or advisable to allow this drift to go up? I haven't done a MAF test yet. Should I?

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Yes, you should do a MAF test. No, allowing your HR to drift up briefly doesn't hurt your aerobic base building. It happens to all of us, I think. The key is not to let it happen too often or so long that the HR doesn't come back down quickly once you slow down to bring it down.

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posted Sep-06-2007 05:27 PM            

1) If I do not have a heart rate monitor, how often should I stop and manually check my HR...once every few minutes? Every 5 minutes? etc.

2) My runs to this point have all been long runs...my shortest are one hour and the longest approaching 2. During the session I will gradually increase the pace on my runs throughout to a 'peak' pace and then work my way back down again as a cool down. Range is from 15:00/mile to the peak of about 9:00/mile. The higher efforts were intended to spend some time near my anaerobic threashold of 158 bpm and (from what I understood) burn more fat.....however reading about MAF makes me think I have been training in the wrong end of the scale to accomplish using fat as fuel. I want to try MAF - what can I expect to be different in how my body uses fat for fuel from what I have been doing already?

Thanks again guys.

[This message has been edited by Diesel88 (edited Sep-06-2007).]

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posted Sep-06-2007 07:59 PM               

quote:

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Originally posted by Diesel88:

1) If I do not have a heart rate monitor, how often should I stop and manually check my HR...once every few minutes? Every 5 minutes? etc.
[This message has been edited by Diesel88 (edited Sep-06-2007).]

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Don't bother taking your heart rate manually, it's just not accurate for many reasons. Get a heart rate monitor.

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posted Sep-07-2007 07:28 AM               

Having said all of that, my question/curiosity is about cardiac drift and how it affects you all. Personally, I've noticed that it is not nearly as extreme now as when I first started aerobic training. However, I have noticed that if I let my heart rate rise significantly (during a recent event, and also during my speedwork), I have great difficulty getting the rate to "settle" again. If I ease off the effort, it will go back down, but I've noticed that it won't seem to migrate back to where it should (based on perceived effort). For example, in my last race, I started running 140's, got up into the 160's for quite some time due to hills, etc.. When I hit the flats, it didn't want to drop lower than 150's. I'd stop at an aid station, and watch the rate drop (maybe to 110's), but then even at a very low effort, it would just jump back into the 150's. Crazy.

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posted Sep-07-2007 08:50 AM            

quote:

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Originally posted by Durt:
However, I have noticed that if I let my heart rate rise significantly (during a recent event, and also during my speedwork), I have great difficulty getting the rate to "settle" again.

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I've seen the same thing. I believe this is natural. I'm not sure what the physiological cause is though. I did a tempo run a few weeks ago where I jogged 2 miles at about 130 bpm, ran 4.5 getting up to the low 180s, and then jogged the last two miles slower than the first two at about 160 bpm. I really don't know the physiological reason, but rightly or wrongly, I associate it with excess post-exercise oxygen consumption.

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posted Sep-07-2007 10:03 AM            

This is one of the main reasons why it is so important to not go out too fast in the early miles. Once the HR reaches a certain level, it becomes difficult to get it back down. So instead, start out easy and work your way into the pace.

Bill

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posted Sep-07-2007 10:30 AM            

quote:

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Originally posted by Durt:
Having said all of that, my question/curiosity is about cardiac drift and how it affects you all. Personally, I've noticed that it is not nearly as extreme now as when I first started aerobic training. However, I have noticed that if I let my heart rate rise significantly (during a recent event, and also during my speedwork), I have great difficulty getting the rate to "settle" again. If I ease off the effort, it will go back down, but I've noticed that it won't seem to migrate back to where it should (based on perceived effort). For example, in my last race, I started running 140's, got up into the 160's for quite some time due to hills, etc.. When I hit the flats, it didn't want to drop lower than 150's. I'd stop at an aid station, and watch the rate drop (maybe to 110's), but then even at a very low effort, it would just jump back into the 150's. Crazy.

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For the first part "not nearly as extreme now as when I first started aerobic training", that's a key part of what gets trained when you do this sort of training. The ability to sustain a strong pace w/o cardiac drift - all at an aerobic pace.

For the second part, this is why you don't want to go over MAF unless its a planned race, speed work, or intervals. If you go significantly over MAF for an extended time, the body builds up some waste products that don't really get released and the heart gets stressed. As such, if when you slow back down to below MAF - you'll need to go a slower pace than if you hadn't done the speed-up.

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posted Sep-07-2007 11:15 AM               

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posted Sep-07-2007 12:10 PM               

quote:

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Originally posted by Acb8d2:
Is there a heart rate monitor that everyone here really likes or would recommend?

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Everyone has different preferences. I, personally, wanted an all-in-one HRM that measures speed, distance, time, pace, HR etc. After a lot of research, I went with the Polar 200sd, and I love it. Lots of people use Garmin products as well, and seem to really like them. I chose Polar because everyone I know who had a Garmin had trouble with the GPS kicking out when on trails or running among tall buildings. The Polar 200sd doesn't use satelite to measure distance, so I haven't had any trouble with it at all.

If you just want a HRM, and aren't worried about all the other stuff, I'd go with Polar as well (though I can't give you any specific model). Their chest strap is one of the most comfortable I've tried. Some of the other brands actually cut into my chest!

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posted Sep-07-2007 12:25 PM            

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posted Sep-07-2007 12:56 PM            

Will an HRM be useful during the training marathon or will the excitement of race day render the readings relatively useless? I could just target a pace based on my previous long runs.

Any other ideas ... such as run a constant pace or pick it up at the end ... ?

I'm hoping for cooler conditions than I've encountered thus far in this training cycle (the long range calls for a low in the mid 50s and a high in the mid 70s).

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posted Sep-07-2007 03:23 PM               

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posted Sep-07-2007 04:01 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by Who Dey:
I'm going to be running a marathon next weekend as a training run for a goal marathon six weeks later.

Will an HRM be useful during the training marathon or will the excitement of race day render the readings relatively useless? I could just target a pace based on my previous long runs.

Any other ideas ... such as run a constant pace or pick it up at the end ... ?

I'm hoping for cooler conditions than I've encountered thus far in this training cycle (the long range calls for a low in the mid 50s and a high in the mid 70s).

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Use the HRM, don't get excited, its a long training run - treat it as such. Be careful not to get carried away - because doing so in a marathon takes a while to recover from.

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posted Sep-07-2007 04:41 PM            

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posted Sep-07-2007 04:51 PM               

quote:

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Originally posted by gregw:
I've seen the same thing. I believe this is natural. I'm not sure what the physiological cause is though. I did a tempo run a few weeks ago where I jogged 2 miles at about 130 bpm, ran 4.5 getting up to the low 180s, and then jogged the last two miles slower than the first two at about 160 bpm. I really don't know the physiological reason, but rightly or wrongly, I associate it with excess post-exercise oxygen consumption.

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This is associated more with a rapid rise in the stress hormone cortisol. Once you trigger that stress reaction, the nervous system and hormones go into action and your heart rate reflects that reaction.

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posted Sep-07-2007 08:08 PM               

quote:

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Originally posted by bluelake:
Hi guys! I've been doing MAF training about 12 weeks now, but really haven't seen much progress. Remember I'm still a newbie, but I've been logging 20-25MPW. My 5K time hasn't shown much improvement at all. I'm starting to consider speedwork. I've seen a test somewhere in this thread that you can do to monitor your progress, but I can't find it. Can someone tell me how to do it?
Thanks!

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I wrote a description of the MAF test on page 24 of this thread. Have a look at it. Now- performing this test once is not particularly useful. Its the changes you see month to month that show how much progress you've made. So what you will have to do is do a baseline MAF test now, and follow it up with repeat tests every 3-4 weeks.

As for your lack of progress- well, without a baseline MAF test and monthly follow-up tests, its really hard to judge if you've really made any progress in terms of speed. The only progress you will really feel on a day to day basis is increased stamina for running longer and longer distances, fewer aches and pains, more body awareness, less fatigue, and less drift in your HR as a run progresses (though that may not be all that noticeable if the changes are subtle). These alone are reasons to continue MAF training, in my opinion. Keep in mind- this type of training is not something to do for a short while, and then you're done. This is a very long term commitment. Even when you plateau and have to start adding speedwork, the majority of your runs should still be below MAF.

If you genuinely believe that you've failed to progress, you need to consider all the possible reasons for this. Were you honest when calculating MAF? Have you stayed under MAF faithfully for ALL of your runs? Is your diet and hydration adequate? Have you been ill, or are you under any unusual physical or emotional stress? Has it been insanely hot and humid where you live (this can mask any progress that you may have made)? Getting enough sleep? Was your aerobic conditioning excellent before you ever started MAF training (I don't think too many people can claim this!)? You get the picture. So many things can affect your ability to adapt to and progress with your training.

What I would do in your position, is do a baseline MAF test, and keep up the low HR training, doing monthly MAF tests. The objective data you get from the MAF tests is really what you need to decide if you are making progress or not. Remember to be patient! This method isn't going to give you quick results, but you will get to where you want to be eventually!

Pam

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posted Sep-08-2007 04:43 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by bluelake:
Hi guys! I've been doing MAF training about 12 weeks now, but really haven't seen much progress. Remember I'm still a newbie, but I've been logging 20-25MPW. My 5K time hasn't shown much improvement at all. I'm starting to consider speedwork. I've seen a test somewhere in this thread that you can do to monitor your progress, but I can't find it. Can someone tell me how to do it?
Thanks!

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Maybe your training hr is too high?

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posted Sep-08-2007 05:14 PM               

What I am extra pleased with, as a result of LHR, is I have gotten back to running 6 days a week vs my former 5x per week--and have increased my weekly mileage from 40-45 to 55-60. Most I have run in over 20 yrs, and have not felt fatigued--even through the long Florida summer.

I share this to encourage folks to slow down. I know with a couple more races I can get under 22 min for the 5K. MAIN goal this fall is a sub 3:58 marathon in Dec.(Huntsville,AL), which would be faster than my first marathon there(in Huntsville) 30 yrs ago. Nick

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posted Sep-08-2007 05:30 PM               

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posted Sep-08-2007 05:38 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by catwoman73:
Everyone has different preferences. I, personally, wanted an all-in-one HRM that measures speed, distance, time, pace, HR etc. After a lot of research, I went with the Polar 200sd, and I love it. Lots of people use Garmin products as well, and seem to really like them. I chose Polar because everyone I know who had a Garmin had trouble with the GPS kicking out when on trails or running among tall buildings. The Polar 200sd doesn't use satelite to measure distance, so I haven't had any trouble with it at all.

If you just want a HRM, and aren't worried about all the other stuff, I'd go with Polar as well (though I can't give you any specific model). Their chest strap is one of the most comfortable I've tried. Some of the other brands actually cut into my chest!

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This post really grabbed my attention. I've been debating/researching upgrading my HRM. It's down to either a Garmin 305 or the 200sd. Currently you can buy both for almost the same price.

Polar claims that within a few minutes of running you can't tell which shoe the foot pod is on. Is that true or exaggerated? Also, I was curious how long the battery in the foot pod lasts. I found one website that claimed it only lasted 20 hours. That wouldn't be very long.

I know many of you have Garmins. How long does the battery last? I imagine the GPS makes a noticable difference.

As far running: I've now been at this low HR running for right at a year. This summer (TX heat) I used run/walking to lengthen my long runs in preparation for my first marathon (Nov. 11), ever since then I've been easily running back at paces that I hadn't seen since spring time. And since I haven't seen a dew point below 68 since May I'm holding out hope that things will get even better.

Thanks for the HRM info.

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