posted Aug-30-2007 08:06 AM            

I have some of the same questions. From what I can tell, I don't believe you need to do anything different nutrition-wise the days preceeding the marathon, but I'm not sure about race day ... both prior and during the marathon.

I had a horrible long run a while back which I partially attribute to poor hydration and not taking carbs. I've since done a long run with diluted Gatorade and the results were much, much better.

I can see the benefit of not taking carbs right before and during a long run, but is there a threshold (e.g., "x" hours of running) where carb ingestion is a good idea? And if so, should one take the carbs throughout the run or wait until the threshold has been reached?

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posted Aug-30-2007 08:55 AM            

I was looking for some justification for moving my training zone a little higher for a few weeks while I prepare for my fall HMs, and Mittelman's MEP zone seems to fit the bill for that. (Yea, yea, I know. It reeks to seek scientific rationale for doing what you want to do.)

I've been trying MEP this week (T,W,Th).

MAF zone 119-129 (180-46-5 for allergies)
MEP zone 127-142

In the MEP zone, I am able to run my entire distance, with walking only on my two steep hill sections, staying in zone for 1:45 of a 2:00 run Wednesday. All but about 1-2 minutes of the rest was warming up or cooling down, so below zone. My AHR was 135 Tues (4.4 miles); 135 Wed (7.8 miles); and 133 Thurs (7.1 miles).

I'm not feeling noticeably tired-er or sore-r moving at slightly faster pace. (Time differential is about 45 sec. to 1 min. faster than MAF)

Any thoughts or experience you have with MEP would be appreciated.

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posted Aug-30-2007 12:13 PM               

quote:

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Originally posted by Who Dey:
Preto ...

I have some of the same questions. From what I can tell, I don't believe you need to do anything different nutrition-wise the days preceeding the marathon, but I'm not sure about race day ... both prior and during the marathon.

I had a horrible long run a while back which I partially attribute to poor hydration and not taking carbs. I've since done a long run with diluted Gatorade and the results were much, much better.

I can see the benefit of not taking carbs right before and during a long run, but is there a threshold (e.g., "x" hours of running) where carb ingestion is a good idea? And if so, should one take the carbs throughout the run or wait until the threshold has been reached?

---

I agree, make no changes from your regular diet. However, that's if your diet is a healthy one (another discussion). Maffetone advocates this too - stick with your regular healthy diet right up until race day.

I think we all agree that getting some liquid carbohydrate during a long race is important (along with a lot of water).

As stated previously, one purpose of training this way (MAF) is to burn more fat (all the time). And, the worse thing to do before a race is to eat a lot of carbs, especially high glycemic ones, which can reduce fat burning.

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posted Aug-30-2007 12:47 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by DavidD:
As stated previously, one purpose of training this way (MAF) is to burn more fat (all the time). And, the worse thing to do before a race is to eat a lot of carbs, especially high glycemic ones, which can reduce fat burning.

---

Thanks for the replies. I don't mean to beat this into the ground but the concept seems slightly counter-intuitive to me. I understand burning fat for energy, LHR training principles, etc. But if during a race I am now reaching anaerobic levels (which, during training, I had mostly avoided)and my body is now relying partially on carbs for energy, won't there be some kind of deficit when I have nothing but fat (I know that is overstated) to draw on?

Another concern I have is if I don't PIG OUT the night before that I am going to be FAMISHED during the race. Right now, the night before a long run I will eat a normal dinner around 7:00 p.m. and I don't get home until 8:00 a.m. or so from my long run. That is a long time without eating and my stomach lets me know! For the marathon, I don't anticipate fininshing until around 9:30 a.m. or so which is even longer between eating. I would be considered a healthy eater but I love food, what can I say. Any ideas or thoughts?

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posted Aug-30-2007 01:24 PM               

quote:

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Originally posted by DavidD:
...the worse thing to do before a race is to eat a lot of carbs, especially high glycemic ones, which can reduce fat burning.

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posted Aug-30-2007 03:30 PM               

quote:

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Originally posted by Preto:
Thanks for the replies. I don't mean to beat this into the ground but the concept seems slightly counter-intuitive to me. I understand burning fat for energy, LHR training principles, etc. But if during a race I am now reaching anaerobic levels (which, during training, I had mostly avoided)and my body is now relying partially on carbs for energy, won't there be some kind of deficit when I have nothing but fat (I know that is overstated) to draw on?

Another concern I have is if I don't PIG OUT the night before that I am going to be FAMISHED during the race. Right now, the night before a long run I will eat a normal dinner around 7:00 p.m. and I don't get home until 8:00 a.m. or so from my long run. That is a long time without eating and my stomach lets me know! For the marathon, I don't anticipate fininshing until around 9:30 a.m. or so which is even longer between eating. I would be considered a healthy eater but I love food, what can I say. Any ideas or thoughts?

---

The goal in endurance training is to run faster at the same (or lower) heart rates, which is associated with burning more fat and less sugar at higher intensities (including races). You always burn both fat and sugar, it's a question of how much of each.

Other than a treadmill test that measures RQ, the MAF test is the only good objective indicator I've seen that is useful for a person to know that fat burning is increasing.

Maffetone has something in his books about how many runners (75%?) race a PR after base building and before any anaerobic training. I've seen similar results with treadmill testing (improved RQ's after base building which would lead to better race times).

If you have to overeat before a race, and feel overly hungry on race day, it could mean you're still not in a good fat burning state.

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posted Aug-30-2007 04:02 PM            

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posted Aug-30-2007 04:09 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by fit45:
What's the thinking on Stu Mittelman's MEP zone? Is anyone using that zone for some portion of their training? If so, when do you begin to incorporate it, how often do you do MEP runs, etc.?

I was looking for some justification for moving my training zone a little higher for a few weeks while I prepare for my fall HMs, and Mittelman's MEP zone seems to fit the bill for that. (Yea, yea, I know. It reeks to seek scientific rationale for doing what you want to do.)

I've been trying MEP this week (T,W,Th).

MAF zone 119-129 (180-46-5 for allergies)
MEP zone 127-142

In the MEP zone, I am able to run my entire distance, with walking only on my two steep hill sections, staying in zone for 1:45 of a 2:00 run Wednesday. All but about 1-2 minutes of the rest was warming up or cooling down, so below zone. My AHR was 135 Tues (4.4 miles); 135 Wed (7.8 miles); and 133 Thurs (7.1 miles).

I'm not feeling noticeably tired-er or sore-r moving at slightly faster pace. (Time differential is about 45 sec. to 1 min. faster than MAF)

Any thoughts or experience you have with MEP would be appreciated.

---

I can't recall Mittelman's acronyms. He has 3 of them; MEP, MAP, something else.... I have Slow Burn at home - I'll check then pass along my thoughts. I've tried at his different HR ranges - and can give insight on myself at least. Just at least responding since there have already been about 6 posts since I saw this - and all are on a different topic - so if I don't put something in now, your question'll get buried.

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posted Aug-30-2007 04:19 PM               

quote:

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Originally posted by RunForOranges:
Just to be clear...I understand that low HR training and building your base gets you to be able to burn more fat while running, but I seem to remember reading that there is a "fat burning zone" which I believe is your MAF number and under. Is this the case? Once you are above this point you are utilizing your stored cards?

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We're always burning some fat (with rare exceptions). I don't like to refer to a zone (reminds me of Barry Sears) as it's not physiologically accurate. There are two issues: one, how much fat are we burning while training (and all other times); and two, what does our training and diet do to our fat burning capability. Training at MAF, according to Maffetone, is the best place to train to burn more fat over a 24-hour period, and to get faster at that same heart rate. Training above MAF potentially results in burning less fat over the next 24 hours and reduces your aerobic progress. This is why the most common mistake is not being honest with the 180 formula -- even a couple of beats above the real MAF can drastically reduce fat burning and aerobic progress.

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posted Aug-30-2007 04:30 PM               

quote:

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Originally posted by dfcameron:
I can't recall Mittelman's acronyms. He has 3 of them; MEP, MAP, something else.... I have Slow Burn at home - I'll check then pass along my thoughts. I've tried at his different HR ranges - and can give insight on myself at least. Just at least responding since there have already been about 6 posts since I saw this - and all are on a different topic - so if I don't put something in now, your question'll get buried.

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Mittleman was a great ultra marathoner, who was trained by Maffetone for many years. Mittleman took Maffetone's material and made it way to complicated, and for no reason.

Keep it simple.

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posted Aug-30-2007 06:22 PM               

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posted Aug-31-2007 07:51 AM               

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posted Aug-31-2007 08:51 AM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by fit45:
What's the thinking on Stu Mittelman's MEP zone? Is anyone using that zone for some portion of their training? If so, when do you begin to incorporate it, how often do you do MEP runs, etc.?

I was looking for some justification for moving my training zone a little higher for a few weeks while I prepare for my fall HMs, and Mittelman's MEP zone seems to fit the bill for that. (Yea, yea, I know. It reeks to seek scientific rationale for doing what you want to do.)

I've been trying MEP this week (T,W,Th).

MAF zone 119-129 (180-46-5 for allergies)
MEP zone 127-142

In the MEP zone, I am able to run my entire distance, with walking only on my two steep hill sections, staying in zone for 1:45 of a 2:00 run Wednesday. All but about 1-2 minutes of the rest was warming up or cooling down, so below zone. My AHR was 135 Tues (4.4 miles); 135 Wed (7.8 miles); and 133 Thurs (7.1 miles).

I'm not feeling noticeably tired-er or sore-r moving at slightly faster pace. (Time differential is about 45 sec. to 1 min. faster than MAF)

Any thoughts or experience you have with MEP would be appreciated.

---

OK.... I've re-read Mittleman's MAP/MEP/SAP chapters - and now I'm confused. I always felt that the upper end of MEP and the highest HR for MAF pace were identical. In fact, in his calculation, he said to determine the MEP upper limit, take 180 minus your age. Then, just like with MAF, he gives some up or down based on extenuating circumstances.

So... when you say that your high end for MEP is higher than your MAF - from the way we're using MAF in this discussion, can that even be right? Or am I confused?

Yet... Mittleman goes on to say that "whatever pace you are able to sustain while keeping your heart rate within the boundaries of the MEP, upper and lower limists tend to be the pace at which you can continue moving during a run of marathon proportions"

So... this confuses me further in that I can go well over MAF (or 180 minus age) when racing a marathon; its just not all that comfortable - nor could I recover fast from it.

I guess what I've found in many (29) years of running is what works for me.

Right now, my max heart rate is around 183. I can race a half-marathon and my heart rate peaks out around 166. This is actually a great pace/heart rate to do intervals for me. My estimated MAF is about 144/145. I can run below this for a very long time; and just feel leg fatigue the next day (if I go really far), no real cardio-vascular. If I run at 130, I can carry on a conversation; solve the world's crises etc... but its not really (any more) improving my aerobic capacity all that much at that pace - just maintaining it. For a marathon, I think my heart rate would end up around the mid 150s for a hard effort.

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posted Aug-31-2007 10:32 AM               

quote:

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Originally posted by Gregolowe:
I'm most interested in hearing how you people use resting heart rate as a guide to overtraing, how much rise do you accept before having to rest/skip runs, ect.. Thank you.

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Hi Greg!

What I have found is that when my resting HR starts to rise, there are always other signs that its time to take a rest. For example, earlier this week, my resting HR rose from its normal 50bpm to 55bpm, then 62, then 65. I've also been suffering from severe insomnia, my allergies have been worse than they have in years, I've had a couple of little aches and pains crop up (mostly- my left shin. I've never had any problems with shin splints), I've had trouble controlling my HR on runs, and I've been really, really moody and irritable- just ask DH. My point is- my body usually tells me in other ways when its time to take a break. The rise in resting HR really just confirms it for me.

As for the length of break that I typically take- well, there's no real solid answer for that. After one day of no running, My HR this a.m. was back to 52. I actually managed to get some sleep last night, my allergies are still there, but no where near as troubling, my shin pain is gone. I'm still a little irritable, but that could be because I want to be running, but know I need to take a break.

When making a decision about returning to running, I typically consider a couple of things. First- that the symptoms that caused me to take a break are gone. In my case, they are much improved today. Secondly- I consider how busy and stressful my life will be outside of running over the next few days. I have a very physically and emotionally stressful job, and am working 12 hour shifts for the next 3 days, starting tomorrow. That, alone, could be enough to set me back. So, will I run today? Well, I've decided to see how I feel by the end of the day today, and if I'm feeling good, I'll go for a short run (probably 5-6 miles, today was supposed to be 13), and see how that goes. But I won't run on the days that I'm working- I'll walk to work instead. Then I'll start fresh next week. I'm going to be on vacation, so that's probably a really good time to ease back in.

I don't know if you are experiencing any other symptoms, as I am, but the rise in resting HR is certainly an indicator that trouble could be brewing. If I were you, even if you feel completely fine aside from the rising HR, I'd take a day off, get lots of rest, and see if that is enough to bring you back to normal. I find that often, a single day of REAL rest (i.e.- rent some movies, and REALLY relax), is enough. Hope this helps a little!

Pam

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ME!

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posted Aug-31-2007 04:32 PM               

The MAF test, if done correctly, reflects subtle changes in heart rate, so that is a great test. Morning heart rate is good too, if it's taken the same time and in the same situation.

Generally speaking, heart rates rise as overtraining evolves. In chronic overtraining the heart rate actually drops, below pre-overtraining levels. (Maffetone has a new article on overtraining on his website).

I like to follow RQ levels, measured each 3-month period, which provides the most subtle indicator of the beginnings of overtraining.

We tend to think of an overtrained athlete as a broken down warrior. But I would speculate that most runners are overtrained (by definition) and it's affecting their overall health and running performance. Also, most don't like to admit to being overtrained.

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posted Sep-01-2007 10:13 PM               

quote:

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Originally posted by catwoman73:

What I have found is that when my resting HR starts to rise, there are always other signs that its time to take a rest. For example, earlier this week, my resting HR rose from its normal 50bpm to 55bpm, then 62, then 65. I've also been suffering from severe insomnia, my allergies have been worse than they have in years, I've had a couple of little aches and pains crop up (mostly- my left shin. I've never had any problems with shin splints), I've had trouble controlling my HR on runs, and I've been really, really moody and irritable- just ask DH. My point is- my body usually tells me in other ways when its time to take a break. The rise in resting HR really just confirms it for me.
...Pam

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Wow, this is serious stuff your body is telling you. Didn't your heart rate start rising a few weeks ago?

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posted Sep-01-2007 10:23 PM               

I was asking about previous signs and symptoms as these are somewhat advanced in nature. Do you do a regular MAF Test?

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posted Sep-02-2007 08:42 AM               

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posted Sep-02-2007 09:57 AM               

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posted Sep-02-2007 11:26 AM            

So I decided after that run to turn off the beeping on my monitor. Run by feel, run by what my body tells is easy. So I finished off last week with an additional 34+ miles. What was funny was my AHR for my other 5 runs were 144,143,143,143 (MAF=145). And my pace got progressively faster (to about 838mpm). Total for week was 45.

Now this AM I was going to run 17 miles (turned out to my 17.5). I haven't run this long since January, plus this would be my sixth straight day of running. I wasn't expecting anything based on last Sunday's disaster.

Well todays run was probably one of my best long run's ever. I did 17.5 miles at 830mpm at AHR of 141 (MAF-4). I don't think I've ever done long runs that far under MAF before. I did let the HR creep up at the end (MaxHR was 154 for run). It was nice to run some 8:0x miles, plus some nice stretch as sub-8mpm pace. I didn't have a mile with an AHR over 140 until mile 9. I was suprised at seeing such low HR's at the paces I was running.

It was 45F at the start of the run and 65F at the end, so the weather finally cooled off. Plus I used my fuel belt on this run (about 28oz of gatorade). I was also nice to run my last half of the run at a faster pace than the first half.

Well just wanted to tell someone. Looks good so far since I've still got 7.5 months til Boston and 3.5 months of base buliding still left.

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posted Sep-02-2007 11:44 AM            

quote:

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Originally posted by DavidD:

I like to follow RQ levels, measured each 3-month period, which provides the most subtle indicator of the beginnings of overtraining.

We tend to think of an overtrained athlete as a broken down warrior. But I would speculate that most runners are overtrained (by definition) and it's affecting their overall health and running performance. Also, most don't like to admit to being overtrained.

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Was Derek Clayton overtraining before he set the world marathon
record? Yes.

Was Al Sal overtraining before he won Boston and New York? Yes

Was Steve Jones overtraining before he set the world marathon
record? Yes.

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posted Sep-02-2007 11:49 AM            

If I run hard tomorrow will I get sick this week? Yes.

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posted Sep-02-2007 12:39 PM               

I think overtraining is the norm in our culture, unfortunately. The problem is most athletes can't read their bodies and know when to back off from the early stage of overtraining, which is when they'd obtain the greatest benefits (during the recovery process -- it's essentially a taper). Maffetone says there's a fine line between over-reaching and the the first stage of overtraining. I think it's a moot point. Keep away from it if you want to be healthy, run your best for many years, and enjoy the sport.

The problem is we, as a society, worship overtrained and broken down athletes. Salazar is an example. He has abused himself his whole life and kids, new runners (and even too many old folks) and the media look up to him when, in fact, he should be shunned for the abuse he continually put on his body.

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posted Sep-02-2007 12:45 PM               

quote:

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Originally posted by DavidD:
Sorry, Pam (something keeps eating my posts...anyone else having this trouble?).

I was asking about previous signs and symptoms as these are somewhat advanced in nature. Do you do a regular MAF Test?

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I had no signs or symptoms prior to this week. In fact, I've been feeling fantastic. My mileage had been gradually increasing (less than 10% per week- I'm paranoid about injury!), and all of the other little issues I had prior to MAF training are completely gone. I think my symptoms appeared so abruptly this week for several reasons. First of all, I do have rather severe allergies, and the pollen count has been extremely high around here over the last week. No amount of medication seems to be keeping my symptoms under control. Secondly, I've had some moderate stress in my personal life, and I know from experience that my resting HR always shoots up when this kind of thing happens. Finally, I know that my vacation is starting on Wednesday, and when I'm this close to having some real time off the relax, I start losing patience with the BS I deal with at work- hence, more stress!

As for MAF tests- I only started low HR training in July, but I did do a baseline and a follow up one month later. My experience with knowing what my resting HR does with stress comes from my days as a body builder (yep- you heard me right!) I had some significant improvements over that first month. My next MAF test is coming up next week, and while I'm hoping to see further improvements, I won't be at all surprised to find just the opposite. This is a really tough time of year for me physically (because of the allergies), and the emotional and work related stress has been really tough to cope with.

After my last post, I decided to take the rest of the week off from running. I've just been going to work and resting up in the evenings. All of the symptoms I previously mentioned are gone (except the allergies- can't do much about that). I plan to resume running on Tuesday morning, and will try to stay at MAF-10 for the next little while until allergy season comes to an end. Can't wait to get back out there (that, too, is a sign I'm feeling better. When I have to drag myself out the door to run, I know trouble is brewing!).

There was a time when I just would have kept pushing myself no matter what my body was trying to tell me. After a broken ankle, a dislocated shoulder, a broken tailbone, multiple bouts of influenza, bronchitis, etc, etc, - I've learned my lesson. While I love to race, I mostly love running because it keeps me healthy. I don't want it to become the source of all my stress. So now, when my body starts telling me to slow down, I do.

Happy running, all!

Pam

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posted Sep-02-2007 08:01 PM            

Keep going!

--Jimmy

MAF log
profile

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