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Topic: Basebuilding, low heart rate training, via Maffetone/Mark Allen/Hadd/Mittleman |
Who Dey
Cool Runner |
 posted Aug-28-2007 10:34 AM
  
I'm using LHR training for the first time and the effect of heat and humidity is dreadful! Like Jesse said, I'm much more aware of the effect than I was when training non-LHR. Add to that the little nagging thoughts in the back of my mind wondering if this type of training is going to work. Running at a slow pace I have LOTS of time to worry!Today, however, I ran 10 miles under relatively cool conditions (temp in the mid/upper-60s). I was able to run under MAF at a 9:50-10:00 pace. I did pick it up the last three miles and so went over MAF at the end. That same run on a humid morning (not too hot) a couple of weeks ago had me running about 10:30 pace. The way I figure it, when the bitter cold of January and February gets here, I'll be running sub-5 minute miles! I'm confused on how to translate all of this to a goal marathon race pace. At this point, I feel like I would just be guessing. But even if this training doesn't result in a tremendous PR, I feel sooooo good about running right now. I'm running more days/miles week and I feel great. No injuries ... no extreme fatigue ... even my long runs are under control and I finish strong. Who could ask for more?
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fredurie
Cool Runner |
posted Aug-28-2007 10:55 AM
quote:
Originally posted by leitnerj:
Interesting stuff, Cash! Although, I am a bit disturbed that you
brought this new word into the fray - catecholamines? Let's just
not go there!
I came across an article on this, but did not save it. All the stress hormone receptors are disturbed.
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fredurie
Cool Runner |
posted Aug-28-2007 10:57 AM
quote:
Originally posted by DanMoriarity:
180-60+5 = 125
Thanks, Dan
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fredurie
Cool Runner |
posted Aug-28-2007 11:03 AM
Nick, at least you have something to shoot for, ie., beating a time from
earlier in your life.I ran 10,600 miles in 81-82, missing 2 months with an injury.
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DavidD
Cool Runner |
posted Aug-28-2007 12:17 PM
quote:Originally posted by leitnerj:
Interesting stuff, Cash! Although, I am a bit disturbed that you
brought this new word into the fray - catecholamines? Let's just
not go there! quote:
Originally posted by fredurie:
I came across an article on this, but did not save it.All the stress hormone receptors are disturbed.
Stress hormones affect all parts of our running (all parts of us!). Understanding the basics of this (the influence of stress) is a key to running better, longer, uninjured and more fun. And, being overall healthy.
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kommish77
Cool Runner |
posted Aug-28-2007 12:28 PM
quote:
Originally posted by fredurie:
Nick, at least you have something to shoot for, ie., beating a time from
earlier in your life.I ran 10,600 miles in 81-82, missing 2 months with an injury.
Quick math tells me that that is near 16 miles a day. Now I know I couldn't do that at my pace and have time for other things in life, but I am guessing your miles were done at a fairly fast pace. I guess the one advantage of running 6 minute miles is you can knock out a 16 mile run in the hour and a half that I use to run 6-7 miles!
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dfcameron
Cool Runner |
posted Aug-28-2007 02:37 PM
quote:
Originally posted by Long Run Nick:
My PR's --set in my early 40's after 10 yrs of running were 17:45 for 5K/36:30 for a 10 K--and only a 3:16 marathon best. I have run 8:12 for my 50 mile PR.I had rarely trained over 50 miles per week. Actually putting together 4 months of over 200 miles per month is a first since back in '84-85. Nick
Nick.... my PRs was 17:47/36:44 - when I was 19. Marathon PR is 3:19 - at age 31. At that time, I could not break 19:00/40:00 for 5k/10k any more. My 50 mile PR is 9:57 - but on trails. I'd also rarely trained over 50 MPW. This year I'm averaging more than that, with a record total in July of 357 miles - and 288.6 so far in Aug (which won't get much higher, as I'm still dealing with basement woes). Yet... I do most of my running around 75% of max HR. Goes to show that the "right" number to train with can't be judged based on a formula whether its MAF or % of max HR - but based on each individual. Formula MAF or % max HR can just serve as a starting point to move up or down from.
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PB2
Cool Runner |
posted Aug-28-2007 03:19 PM
quote:
Oiginally posted by dfcameron:
...Goes to show that the "right" number to train with can't be judged based on a formula whether its MAF or % of max HR - but based on each individual. Formula MAF or % max HR can just serve as a starting point to move up or down from.
No one is saying that (at least, I hope). The point made several times here is that the good formulas, like the 180, are based on treadmill testing and are a very good for those not able to be tested. As you say, a starting point. Even a good treadmill test is a start as the body changes even in the short term.
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martinjames
Cool Runner |
posted Aug-28-2007 03:25 PM
quote:
Originally posted by kommish77:
Quick math tells me that that is near 16 miles a day. Now I know I couldn't do that at my pace and have time for other things in life, but I am guessing your miles were done at a fairly fast pace. I guess the one advantage of running 6 minute miles is you can knock out a 16 mile run in the hour and a half that I use to run 6-7 miles!
I think he runs a couple hours a day, which is more than I can fit into my schedule but not unreasonable for the truly motivated. In theory, at your pace you could run 10 miles/day and, over time, I suspect that would gradually increase.
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KSC
Cool Runner |
posted Aug-28-2007 10:58 PM
I'm new to the LHR training, and have been inspired by this thread and Mark Allen's articles to try it out. Coming from an anerobic football/hockey background, I guess that's what I've just accepted it and accustomed my body to it. I run approx 25-30 miles a week peaking with a long run of 10 miles which I run in about 1:16. Since messing around with my HRM for a few days, I realize there is no way I'm going to be able to complete 10 miles anywhere close to this time. My question is, should I stick out my runs for longer duration and maintain my current mileage or should I keep my runs at the same time and work my mileage back up? If i stick with mileage, I will be increasing time significantly, and if I stick with time I will decrease my mileage significantly.
Thanks for the help.
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catwoman73
Cool Runner |
posted Aug-28-2007 11:29 PM
quote:
Originally posted by KSC:
My question is, should I stick out my runs for longer duration and maintain my current mileage or should I keep my runs at the same time and work my mileage back up?
If I were in your position, I would try to maintain my current mileage at first, and see how it goes. Its all a big experiment when you first start. You may find it too time consuming when you first start, and have to back off to a lower mileage. When I started low HR training, I had plenty of time to get my weekly mileage in, but I ran into problems with REALLY sore muscles, and had to back off a little bit while my body adjusted to this new type of training. That seems to be pretty common, so be prepared to make adjustments over the first couple of weeks. Given your anaerobic background, you'll probably benefit a great deal from low HR training. Be prepared to have to swallow your pride, though, as little old men with walkers and moms with strollers are passing you. It happens to lots of us! It can be incredibly frustrating. Don't forget to do a baseline MAF test, and follow it up with MAF tests at least once a month to chart your progress. Good luck to you, welcome to the group, and keep us posted! Pam ------------------
ME!
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KSC
Cool Runner |
posted Aug-29-2007 03:25 AM
Thanks a lot Pam.
What exactly is a MAF test? I'm currently using the formula from Mark Allen's page, 180 minus my age (22) plus 5 since I am younger and workout 5-6 days a week. 163 is very comfortable, but as my HR drifts above that, the only thing I notice different is the alarm on my HRM. It sure is frustrating!
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KSC
Cool Runner |
posted Aug-29-2007 04:08 AM
quote:
Originally posted by leitnerj:
low 70s: starting to really be miserable. heart rate is becoming
almost impossible to control. You may really have to reach deep
inside to finish a long run
high 70s: there's a good chance that after a few miles your heart
rate will have climbed so much that you've lost all hope of controlling
your heart rate even at a dead slow pace
HAHAHA, and I've been training in Iraq for the last several months. When I get home in October and make the 30 degree jump, I'll have high hopes. Suddenly a 1:16 10 mile doesn't seem so slow(on an 80 degree morning).
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catwoman73
Cool Runner |
posted Aug-29-2007 08:56 AM
quote:
Originally posted by KSC:
What exactly is a MAF test?
A MAF test is generally done on a track or a treadmill. Since you are in Iraq, that may prove a little bit difficult. You need to be able to find a 1 mile loop in order to do the test, or be wearing a GPS monitor that can track your splits at each mile that you run. A MAF test is generally 5 miles in length, and tracks the amount of time it takes to complete each mile while keeping your HR at MAF. After warming up for 10-15min, start running, keeping your heart rate at MAF. I always set my HRM alarms and MAF +/- 2 and adjust my speed accordingly to keep my HR in the appropriate range. Take note of the time it takes to complete each mile. You will notice that your times for each successive mile are a little slower than the previous one. That's completely normal, and can be attributed to dehydration and muscle fatigue. You will notice that as the months pass, if you are consistently training under your max. aerobic HR, you will get faster while keeping your HR at a constant level. You will also more than likely notice that the difference between your mile 1 time and your mile 5 time will become less and less. Have a look back over this very lengthy thread- many of us have posted our initial and follow-up MAF times. Some have been happy with their progress, some have not. But that will give you some idea of where many of us have started, what a typical MAF test pattern looks like, and what kind of progress is possible or can be expected. Good luck, and keep us posted! Pam ------------------
ME!
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leitnerj
Cool Runner |
posted Aug-29-2007 09:09 AM
quote:
Originally posted by KSC:
HAHAHA, and I've been training in Iraq for the last several months. When I get home in October and make the 30 degree jump, I'll have high hopes. Suddenly a 1:16 10 mile doesn't seem so slow(on an 80 degree morning).
Keep in mind that I was referring to dewpoints in that message,
not temperatures.
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wanderingoutlaw
Cool Runner |
posted Aug-29-2007 09:23 AM
Speaking of MAF tests, I ran a MAF test this morning--first one since mid-July. I run mine outside on a half-mile loop on roads. The temperature was 75F and the dewpoint was 72F.After my twenty minute warmup I ran Mile 1 - 10:00 - 140
Mile 2 - 10:21 - 140
Mile 3 - 10:41 - 140
Mile 4 - 10:42 - 141
Mile 5 - 11:09 - 141 After four months of my test times declining (probably due to summer heat and humidity), my test times have improved back to my late April test times (during which the temp was 57F and the dewpoint 51F). Except for today's fifth mile during which my heart rate was almost uncontrollable. Still, noticeable improvement feels good. Maybe next test, I'll finally break the 10:00 MAF mile pace. John ------------------
John's Profile
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saviorfaire
Cool Runner |
posted Aug-29-2007 10:07 AM
I have been doing LHR/Maff training for about three weeks, perhaps a bit longer. At first, I could barely stay under MAF without looking like an old man shuffling along. I started a thread on that a while back. I also needed to stop and walk alot during my runs.Now, I can actually run for my entire workout and keep my HR consistently well below MAF. I even noticed the last few days, on a couple of hills/inclines I encounter in various courses I run, that I can actually run up most, if not the entire length of the hills and keep under MAF.
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fredurie
Cool Runner |
posted Aug-29-2007 10:49 AM
WednesdayAM 16 miles @ 7:30 to 8:00, 63F ground fog 93%, HR 96
to 111, twice up the 300 foot high hill ( HR 107 and 111 ) HR 111 in the last mile, drift and humidity. I didn't think that I would ever run a 100 mile week again, but
I'm going for it.
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dfcameron
Cool Runner |
posted Aug-29-2007 05:17 PM
I've found that if I don't get overheated or dehydrated, that I'm in good enough aerobic shape to stay under MAF for an entire workout and not deviate too much. A sample run (staying at 9:00 min/mi pace throughout) might have me at 128 at mile 1, 132 at mile 1, and 135 for the rest. Although the 135 won't be constant; it'll bounce around a few beats.But... on days like today, where I run for over an hour, its 84 degrees out, and I take no fluids... I get the heart rate drift regardless.
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Preto
Member |
posted Aug-29-2007 06:53 PM
I apologize if this has been covered previously, but what prerace meal/nutritional/hydration routines does everyone follow (specifically for marathon)? Is carb loading discouraged prior to a race? Just generally looking for ideas for what is recommended by you pros and what everyone has had success with. Thanks!
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leitnerj
Cool Runner |
posted Aug-29-2007 09:34 PM
quote:
Originally posted by Preto:
I apologize if this has been covered previously, but what prerace meal/nutritional/hydration routines does everyone follow (specifically for marathon)? Is carb loading discouraged prior to a race? Just generally looking for ideas for what is recommended by you pros and what everyone has had success with. Thanks!
Which pros are you talking to? In either case, are you asking in general,
or based on a low HR, fat burn ideology? If you follow the training approach
suggestions in this thread (or if you have very strong aerobic fitness
elsewise), then you won't need any carb-loading to get your through
a marathon and you certainly wouldn't want to take in carbs within
about 2 hours before the race because that will encourage the use of
carbs vs fat - just what you don't want to do (you will always use carbs,
you just want to preserve your precious store as best you can). If you
are talking about traditional carb-loading in the days before the marathon,
it will only give you noticeable results if you are not an efficient
fat burner. ------------------
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Preto
Member |
posted Aug-29-2007 09:53 PM
quote:
Originally posted by leitnerj:
Which pros are you talking to? In either case, are you asking in general, or based on a low HR, fat burn ideology?
Asking those of you that have significant experience with LHR training (the pros) and asking specifically based on LHR ideology. I've been base building for about 4 months and have had excellent results. For me, this method has been a total change in philosophy in terms of training and so just looking to see what differences there may be in preparing for a race from a nutritional standpoint. So, based on your response, you eat nothing different the day or two before a marathon versus normal LHR training? Thanks for all the insight and experience shared!
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willamona
Cool Runner |
posted Aug-29-2007 11:25 PM
I don't eat anything to different. I prefer my last full meal to be shrimp with broccoli and rice. (If you ever see Dirty Jobs on Discovery channel, and find out what the body does to spaghetti....ewww) I did fine on my last marathon with just one gel and a few jelly beans during the race. My carb load was sushi that time. (Rice again.) I PRed by a ton but I think I would have done the same on just the course Gatorade. I don't think I need anything special, as I no longer need to load up for my long runs. Since that is the case I just don't see the point of carb loading. And then let's not forget that I am a women, and the benefit of carb loading is much less for me. ------------------
***********
My myspace
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Low Heart Rate Training FAQ Because many have asked...
You have poopie pants.
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leitnerj
Cool Runner |
posted Aug-30-2007 04:44 AM
quote:
Originally posted by Preto:
Asking those of you that have significant experience with LHR training (the pros) and asking specifically based on LHR ideology. I've been base building for about 4 months and have had excellent results. For me, this method has been a total change in philosophy in terms of training and so just looking to see what differences there may be in preparing for a race from a nutritional standpoint.So, based on your response, you eat nothing different the day or two before a marathon versus normal LHR training? Thanks for all the insight and experience shared!
Ok, gotcha. Right - the only thing I do is avoid too many jalapenos
and habaneros the day before the race. Other than that, nothing at
all different than I usually eat. ------------------
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aharmer
Cool Runner |
posted Aug-30-2007 08:05 AM
I don't really carb load because my diet is pretty heavy carb anyway. The last day or two before the race I move away from the whole grains and vegetables I usually eat. I stay carb heavy but do the low fiber version...I call it the "kids carbs", white bread, white pasta, white bagels, etc. Day before the race I do the customary big spaghetti meal but I have it for lunch. Dinner is early and much smaller in order to evacuate everything race morning. Race morning is white bagel with peanut butter and banana two hours before the race. For the two hours before the race and the first 1/2 hour of the race no carbs are taken in, only water. At the 1/2 hour point of the race I'll start on the carb drinks, gels or food depending on the race. In theory, it takes your body 1/2 hour to get the fat reserves primed and available for use. Once the "fire is hot" so to speak, putting carbs into the system doesn't affect the mixture of fat/carbs you're using.This is just the system that has evolved for me over time, others may say my information is completely false. It's really a matter of finding out what works for you through trial and error. I edited to add that this information is for my marathon or longer races only. Anything shorter than a marathon the only thing I do is move away from high fiber the day before the race. Good luck! ------------------
My Profile "Pain is temporary. Regret hurts forever."
[URL=http://www.analytical-training.blogspot.com] [This message has been edited by aharmer (edited Aug-30-2007).]
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