posted Aug-22-2007 04:34 PM               

quote:

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Originally posted by Gregolowe:
Let me see if I can clarify what I'm asking. I don't want to be an elite marathoner. I think what I'm trying to ask is does doing anaerobic work simultaneously improve your aerobic abilities? That's what I was trying to note about the people I mentioned above. Mark Allen is probably the clearest example. He trained all out, no pain no gain. He STARTED MAF running 8:15/min miles. Did his anaerobic development training also increase his aerobic capacity? Would someone who does little slow running show improvement in their anaerobic ability comparable to what people get in low HR training? I think that's more clear.

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The whole idea is that training aerobically will make you faster -- both aerobically and anaerobically. (And, after building a good aerobic base you add some type of speed work). This is Maffetone's approach.

Mark Allen trained most of the time (as I've heard him speak, and things I read) aerobically. So he didn't train all out (not 'no pain no gain), but rather, had such a fast MAF that he often was well below that pace in his daily runs.

I think younger athletes (who can handle stress much better) can improve their aerobic capacity by training hard - but only for a relatively short period. Then they crash.

Some of the young college athletes I tested would be clearly overtraining and build great (for them) aerobic capacity, but often get injured or sick soon after. And, I'd find their RQ was relatively high (more sugar, less fat burning), so maybe we can't say their aerobic system was so good.

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posted Aug-22-2007 04:57 PM               

quote:

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Originally posted by Gregolowe:
Did his anaerobic development training also increase his aerobic capacity? Would someone who does little slow running show improvement in their anaerobic ability comparable to what people get in low HR training?

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I'm not a physiologist, but based on experience I would think that you can derive some aerobic benefits from anaerobic training, but that anaerobic training is not the most efficient way of developing aerobically.

Also, the amount you can improve anaerobically is somewhat limited, no matter how much anaerobic training you do, so what you often see with runners who do primarily anaerobic running is that they improve quickly for a short period of time and then their performances level off or they start to breakdown.

Your aerobic system takes much longer to develop, but it is much more trainable and less stressful on the body, so with someone who trains primarily aerobically, they may improve slowly at first, but they can continue to improve for a long time.

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posted Aug-22-2007 06:02 PM               

You've received some great information here. Mark Allen clearly needed Maf-style training because even though he started at 8:15/mile, he very quickly improved to 5:30/mile or something crazy like that at the equivalent intensity. You can't compare yourself to anybody else's starting point because every person truly is an experiment of one. Another person that runs 12:00/pace at their Maf number may have a great aerobic base. Their genetic potential may be just very slightly better than 12:00/mile.

Think of your fitness level as a pyramid. The top of the pyramid is the anaerobic stuff, the sharpening period before races, etc. The base of the pyramid is your aerobic base. With a small foundation, the pyramid can only go so high...your running can only improve as much as what your foundation allows. That's why elites will build base, sharpen, race, and then build base again. They take the pyramid as high as is possible with their existing foundation and then go back to the bottom and start building that base level even larger which allows them to build the entire pyramid larger all the way up to the point. This time when they get to the point it's higher than it was the previous time.

Keep in mind this is only my way of looking at things, it could be complete BS! Best of luck with whatever method you choose!

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"Pain is temporary. Regret hurts forever."
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posted Aug-22-2007 07:18 PM               

quote:

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Originally posted by DanMoriarity:
I'm not a physiologist, but based on experience I would think that you can derive some aerobic benefits from anaerobic training, but that anaerobic training is not the most efficient way of developing aerobically.

Also, the amount you can improve anaerobically is somewhat limited, no matter how much anaerobic training you do, so what you often see with runners who do primarily anaerobic running is that they improve quickly for a short period of time and then their performances level off or they start to breakdown.

Your aerobic system takes much longer to develop, but it is much more trainable and less stressful on the body, so with someone who trains primarily aerobically, they may improve slowly at first, but they can continue to improve for a long time.

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I know a lot of physiologists who could not say it any better.

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posted Aug-22-2007 10:53 PM               

quote:

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Originally posted by DavidD:
I know a lot of physiologists who could not say it any better.

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I know a professed physiologist who couldn't even have come close -- but it doesn't stop him from trying.

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posted Aug-23-2007 10:08 AM            

Keep going!

--Jimmy

MAF log

profile

[This message has been edited by jjwaverly42 (edited Aug-23-2007).]

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posted Aug-23-2007 12:16 PM               

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MyRunningLog
MyStuff
Low Heart Rate Training FAQ
My marathons and ultras
My races and reports

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posted Aug-23-2007 02:47 PM               

quote:

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Originally posted by leitnerj:
Been on travel for the last week with minimal time and
internet access - glad this thread has a life of its own!
Lots of good inputs are flowing ...

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Welcome back--we missed you. Nick

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posted Aug-23-2007 10:57 PM               

I've been doing this for a few weeks so far without any noticeable effects.

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posted Aug-24-2007 07:37 AM               

quote:

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Originally posted by nizerifin:
I've got a question about heart rate limits. Tonight it was uber-hot out (at 10:30 pm, no less). Within a minute of running very slow my heart rate was at 170, which is my limit. I find this very frustrating, since I have to stop and walk a mere minute after starting my run! So I stop and walk and my heart rate slows down to about 155 after a minute or so. Then I start running again and BAM! 30 seconds later it's back up to 170 - or higher. So I walk again. 1 minute later it's back to 155. I run again, and no surprise, it's back up to 170 instantly. What's up with this?!

I've been doing this for a few weeks so far without any noticeable effects.

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Might be a faulty heart rate monitor--OR a faulty heart. Seriously, have a friend wear it and see if it acts strangely. Wear their heart rate monitor and see if you are seeing the same HR response. Another thought -- make sure the contact points are wet and you aren't wearing the HR monitor upside down. If you around a lot of power lines they can cause faulty readings. How do you know your max hr is 170? If you provide some specifics:age/sex/ht/wt/yrs running we (forum members) may be able to trouble shoot some more. Gee, I just read this and think it is a great reply to your query. Nick

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posted Aug-24-2007 09:07 AM               

quote:

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I've got a question about heart rate limits. Tonight it was uber-hot out (at 10:30 pm, no less). Within a minute of running very slow my heart rate was at 170, which is my limit. I find this very frustrating, since I have to stop and walk a mere minute after starting my run! So I stop and walk and my heart rate slows down to about 155 after a minute or so. Then I start running again and BAM! 30 seconds later it's back up to 170 - or higher. So I walk again. 1 minute later it's back to 155. I run again, and no surprise, it's back up to 170 instantly. What's up with this?!
I've been doing this for a few weeks so far without any noticeable effects

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You probably are not running slow enough. I've been doing LHR training the last two weeks. Once I got my monitor, it was pure hell to keep my heart rate under 135bpm. I started a thread last weeked titled something like: "I look like an old man"... I tell you I was running so slow, pedestrians were walking past me. Many times I had to stop and walk to get the rate down. Now, it is only in the few hills and noticable inclines where my heart rate rises.

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posted Aug-25-2007 11:56 AM               

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posted Aug-25-2007 12:01 PM            

Friday
AM 8 miles very slow, HR 75 to 89

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posted Aug-25-2007 12:25 PM               

quote:

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Originally posted by DavidD:
As I've said, and others, a common problem (one of THE most common) is not being accurate (or honest) with the 180 formula calculations. So you end up training mildly anaerobically, still train slower so you think it can't be anaerobic, and not progress.

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Good point David. Remember, first do an honest calculation of your training HR. Then stay at or below that HR during the entire run...even on hills. Even in hot weather. Even at the end of the run. Even if you have to walk. Your average HR at the end of the run should be below your Maff number...if not you're not being strict enough.

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posted Aug-25-2007 12:29 PM            

Then how can it be training?

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posted Aug-25-2007 12:58 PM               

quote:

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Originally posted by fredurie:
Even if you have to walk??????

Then how can it be training?

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Believe it or not, it still can be training! While it's a rarity for
me to walk in a training run anymore (only on steep climbs in
the mountains), while I was still building my base from my original
horrible aerobic conditioning, I walked here and there as needed to
keep things under control. For the really competitive runners here,
I think you might see a rare walk on a steep climb or in high
heat and/or humidity, but for the average runner here who has
difficult moving at all at a heart rate of 160 or less, it may be the
only way to really develop the aerobic system.

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posted Aug-25-2007 01:00 PM               

quote:

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Originally posted by fredurie:
No problem.

Friday
AM 8 miles very slow, HR 75 to 89

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My HR is about 75-89 from the adrenaline as I walk out the door to start my run.

What's your max and resting HR, Fred?

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posted Aug-25-2007 11:08 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by fredurie:
Even if you have to walk??????

Then how can it be training?

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Why can't walking be part of training?

Long walks are used often by Japanese marathoners. Mark Allen used long walks in his rebuilding phase working with Maffetone. What I've read is that it helps with slow-twitch development, and training the mind to deal with time on feet.

All walking isn't going to make you great, but it seems some put into marathon training can help.

As far as using walking to stay under MAF, well that's what the training stipulates. I've used it this summer as I've returned to MAF training in the absolutely worse time to start: New England summer while shopping/buying new home and moving (with no Survivor on TV for escape). Several runs I had to take walk breaks in the last few miles to keep under my HR ceiling. I believe with all my heart, blood, lymphatic fluid, synovial fluid, bile secretions, catarrh, brain, adrenaline, cerumen, saliva, insulin, and soul that I was still training when I was walking. In fact, I looked up to the sky and could have sworn a cumulo-nimbus cloud looked just like Jeff Galloway. It was a sign from Chaff The Running God that I was on the right track, or maybe he was just mocking me for being a walk-breaking fool, like so many of the experts around here think walk-breakers are. If the latter is the case, I can take it, as most runners around here think using MAF training is about as smart as mating a pair of mules to create a brood to sell at Petco. Everyone knows Petco doesn't sell mules.

--Jimmy

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posted Aug-25-2007 11:18 PM            

For those talking about walking - if it builds the aerobic capacity - its still beneficial. In Ultras, I do a fair amount of walking - sometimes to get my HR back down - sometimes because I'm going up a steep hill.

Finally... I'm encountering a new experiment. I've mentioned before that my next goal is a Boston qualifier - which'll be tough for me. I turn 45 soon; and need a 3:30 - which'll be tight. Anyway... I upped the mileage from about 50 week to around 80 - and did 9 straight weeks of 80 miles/week. Then on Thursday, my basement flooded. The last couple days (and the next several) will be very little running -mainly swabbing out and bailing and cleaning out. No time to run; if I want to save the rest of things. So... I'll go from 80 MPW to a 34 mile week - to something very low - then hopefully build back up quickly. I'm hoping the fact that I've got 1980 miles this year already - the vast majority at or below MAF gives me a strong base that almost missing a week or two won't be huge.

Someone reassure me....

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posted Aug-26-2007 12:06 AM            

quote:

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Originally posted by dfcameron:

Someone reassure me....

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No Problem. Won't hurt your aerobic fitness, Pfitzinger says you can have 10 days without running and resume your schedule without loss of aerobic fitness, Seriously, get your basement taken care of.

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Tom

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posted Aug-26-2007 09:43 AM               

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posted Aug-26-2007 11:47 AM            

quote:

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Originally posted by DanMoriarity:
My HR is about 75-89 from the adrenaline as I walk out the door to start my run.

What's your max and resting HR, Fred?

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Resting 46 to 48
Max ? probably around 175 at age 59.5

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posted Aug-26-2007 11:51 AM            

quote:

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Originally posted by jjwaverly42:
. I believe with all my heart, blood, lymphatic fluid, synovial fluid, bile secretions, catarrh, brain, adrenaline, cerumen, saliva, insulin, and soul that I was still training when I was walking. In fact, I looked up to the sky and could have sworn a cumulo-nimbus cloud looked just like Jeff Galloway. It was a sign from Chaff The Running God that I was on the right track, or maybe he was just mocking me for being a walk-breaking fool, like so many of the experts around here think walk-breakers are. If the latter is the case, I can take it, as most runners around here think using MAF training is about as smart as mating a pair of mules to create a brood to sell at Petco. Everyone knows Petco doesn't sell mules.

--Jimmy

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As usual, great stuff, Jimmy.

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posted Aug-26-2007 12:41 PM               

A suggestion on training 9 straight weeks at 80 miles per week. You might try several weeks around 80 miles--then back off to 60-65 every 3rd week or so. It may even make you stronger.

With your base a sub 3:30 should be very doable. Get some 10K/10 mile races in. They will be a decent indicator of your fitness. Visualize--then actualize. Nick

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posted Aug-27-2007 11:31 AM            

All was fine until about the 11-12 mile mark +/- and then the HR began to shoot upwards. At first I fought the cardiac drift and started a few walk breaks, however things became worse and even walk breaks (hills and later flats) would not keep my HR below MAF. I finally gave up fighting and thought I would attempt to train the MAF run into more of a MP run and get it over. For the last few miles my heart rate monitor was recording upwards of 165-170 bpm, yet my pace was down to a 12:30+ mm death march.

For the past few months I have been pretty strict with keeping my HR below MAF. I have been trying to average towards MAF-5. With the summer heat my pace has remained steady and slow (11:15 mm ave.), however have had decent HR control. Last week as morning temperatures cooled (low 50s) I was pleased to see my training pace drop to 10:40+/-.

Im not sure what just happended and hope it is all due to a bad long run and not respecting the heat/ humidity?

Im not sure hydration was an issue as I had stashed bottles of water and ultima at several locations along the route. At times I questioned if I was drinking too much? Is it possible to overhydrate and see such poor performance?

If not hydration I question if it was due to poor diet 24-hrs before the run or no food before the training run?

Does anyone have any comment or advise? Im hopeful this was simply a bad run in the heat without adequate preparation. With my first marathon approaching in mid-Oct. Im now concerned about my actual level of fitness.

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