posted Aug-14-2007 06:42 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by catwoman73:
Thanks, guys. I appreciate the quick reply. And I am THRILLED that this seems to be real progress. I was cautiously optomistic, but its nice to hear from people who actually know what they are talking about!!!

I am still a newbie runner- only running one year now. I did my first HM in May. During my training, my HR averaged 152ish for all of my runs, with it peaking at >170 towards the end. I did this day in, day out. I was always sore, and felt like I was on the edge of being injured all the time. And the actual race nearly killed me! I distinctly remember thinking as I crossed the finish line, "I'll never be able to finish a marathon!" Well, I'm changing my tune now that I've started Mafing. I have surpassed my previous peak weekly mileage without any problems at all. I am planning a 30k race in March, followed by (hopefully) a marathon in May. I'm sure that I can do it now!

Having said that, while it may not hurt me to do my HMs this fall, I think I'm still going to pass on them. I take my health very seriously, and I think, given how good I've been feeling, the smartest thing for me to do is stick with low HR training for at least the rest of the year. And I'd really like to see what I'm capable of with a long basebuilding period!

Thanks for all the advice, everyone!

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I'll add my agreement to everyone. You've definitely improved. From 52 to 63 degrees; there's very little slow down due to weather. From 82 to 93; well... that's a different story.

As far as the half-marathons; I ran my marathon PR when I did no races prior to the event. I did 4 months of base-building - raising my mileage from 35 MPW to 62 MPW - keeping at least 90% of the runs at about 65-75% of max HR (below MAF). Once I got to 62 MPW - I did the 5th month with a set of mile intervals once/week. These were at about 10-15% above MAF in terms of heart rate; and a little faster than my marathon pace. Then the week before the marathon, I just jogged about 20 miles or so.

I didn't need a half-marathon or 5K or anything with this approach; and got my lifetime PR.

My last hard marathon, I did run one half-marathon 5 weeks before. I don't think it helped; nor did it hurt. I had a good base going in, though, if I hadn't - I think it would have hurt.

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posted Aug-14-2007 08:18 PM               

Some people may be better never going over MAF while others would benefit with a period of anaerobic training to complement the aerobic base.

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posted Aug-15-2007 09:11 AM               

Now, if you show no improvement or go backwards over a 3 or 4 month period, you may need to take a look at what's going on, but over 1 month whether it's good or bad, just keep plugging away.

Last summer I was diligent about running LHR most days with one or two controlled tempo runs per week and didn't show much improvement all summer, in fact I seemed to be going backwards a little. I also had a significant injury in August which set me back a few weeks, but by October without any specific 5km training, I equalled my best 5km time in several years and a month later dropped 4 minutes off my over age 30 PR at 10 miles.

Sometimes you'll work your butt off and show very little improvement, others you'll surprise yourself and not know why, it's all part of the game. Just maintain a stable committment for several years and you will improve more than you probably ever imagined.

[This message has been edited by DanMoriarity (edited Aug-15-2007).]

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posted Aug-15-2007 12:09 PM               

A little bit about me. I am a 52 year old male and a former distance runner in high school from the early 70s and ran a few years in college.

I took back to running in May 2006, just to get my pathetic back side out and get some exercise. Seven months later at the urging of a girl friend I ran a 5K...thinking I could easily do it in around 25 minutes. A time I read on a men's health web site that suggested a male in my age range could do if they were in good shape. My times was 27:55, and I barely finished.

I put my nose to the grindstone and dealt with the winter in New Jersey and ran another 5K in late April and finished in 27:10.

I upped my mileage to about 20 to 30 miles per week and in mid-July, did another 5K in 25:45. Amazingly, the one and two mile splits where run at about 50-55 seconds faster per mile than my previous 5K.

My overall goal is to break 25 minutes, with some future lofty goals of running much faster. Since I am not running for USATF points and what not, I am trying the Maffetone low heart rate training method. I can experiment and see how it works. In other words, I really have nothing at stake here.

Since this past Thursday (8/09), I've been doing my morning runs at the low heart rate pace. Previously, I'd do my 3.5 to 6 mile morning runs at roughly a 9:30 or slower pace. My LHR pace is about 3 minutes slower and surprisingly I fairly fatigued considering how slow I am running.

I have set my pulse monitor for a range of 125 on the low end, and 137 on the high end. It is really hard to keep it below 137.

Any comments or advice is very welcome. Great thread.

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posted Aug-15-2007 01:03 PM               

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Originally posted by saviorfaire:
Hello All, I'm a new forum/site member. I happened across this forum/site by accident by way of Mark Allen... and am very intrigued by the Maffetone Training method.

...I have set my pulse monitor for a range of 125 on the low end, and 137 on the high end. It is really hard to keep it below 137.

Any comments or advice is very welcome. Great thread.

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137 HR seems rather high. What does the 180 formula get you?

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posted Aug-15-2007 01:33 PM               

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Originally posted by DavidD:
137 HR seems rather high. What does the 180 formula get you?

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Hi David,

The 180 formual yields 128. I added 5 per the formula adjustments to get 133...

I set it to 137 to give me some leeway. Keeping it under 137 was a chore, but doable. I needed to stop and walk a handful of times to get back down to the mid 130s. Just need to work at it.
Charlie

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posted Aug-15-2007 02:52 PM               

quote:

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Originally posted by saviorfaire:
Hi David,

The 180 formual yields 128. I added 5 per the formula adjustments to get 133...

I set it to 137 to give me some leeway. Keeping it under 137 was a chore, but doable. I needed to stop and walk a handful of times to get back down to the mid 130s. Just need to work at it.
Charlie

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Bonjour savior faire,

Je m'appelle Nick----yikes it has been way too many yrs since I have written any French. Just take your time--think months--not days/weeks. Relax--walk a little. Actually walking is a great training mode that very few runners buy into. I am into my 4th month of low hr training. Never tried it in my previous 31 yrs of running. Mind you, I rarely trained faster than 2-3 minutes faster than my 5/10K times. This "new" concept has resulted in me returning to 6x per week running--upped my mileage from 40-45 per week to 55-60 per week. Best of all, I feel great. Not bad for an old fart soon to be 64 with over 64,000 miles out on the roads. I have logged over 750 miles of EZ running and I feel stronger and I am running quicker at the same hr.

I hope you have taken the time to read all the stuff in Jesse's initial post on this thread. Some good stuff. Wish you well--52--you are just getting started. Nick

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posted Aug-15-2007 05:48 PM            

For me, I'm 44. Given all the running I've done; the pure MAF formula gives 136 - but I should be able to adjust upward based on aerobic base and years of conditioning. Yet... I started conservatively when building a deeper base - and ran at 130 for a while. After I got used to it; I kept raising the max heart rate in runs until I got to the point that I felt 144 still feels fine and I can run for 3 hours at this pace and just get some leg tiredness. But... if I hit 146 and stay there too long; I feel tired overall the next day. So, I figure my MAF is 144 or 145. But... I wouldn't have started by assuming that I could take the base MAF and raise it by 8 or 9 beats.

Either way, I concur with an earlier poster or two that this is a long-term approach. It may well take 6 weeks to see any measurable improvement. I've averaged over 8 miles/day all year - but raised the bar to 11 miles/day about 8 weeks ago. At that point; my first 3 weeks were "worse". Now... I'm feeling stronger/faster than ever - and can sustain a faster pace at MAF than I could prior to the upping of mileage - but I wouldn't have said that 2 weeks ago.

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posted Aug-15-2007 08:11 PM               

quote:

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Originally posted by DanMoriarity:
There's just one point I would add with regard to Pam's post; I do think there's improvement there, but personally I wouldn't recommend getting too wrapped up in test results from just one month apart. Improvement isn't a linear thing, there are always ebbs and flows in your conditioning, good days and bad and sometimes for no apparent reason.

Now, if you show no improvement or go backwards over a 3 or 4 month period, you may need to take a look at what's going on, but over 1 month whether it's good or bad, just keep plugging away.

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My plan right now is to continue low HR training for the long term, and to continue making adjustments to my training as necessary for continued success. Speed is not my only measure of success with this approach- my mileage has been increasing steadily, I am injury-free, and feel more healthy than I've felt in a very long time. These are all factors that I have to weigh as I continue to re-evaluate the effectiveness of my training. I decided to cancel my fall race plans because I am feeling so well, and I really want to give myself time to continue building my aerobic base. I am still a very new runner, and I'm only 34- I have many years left in me to race.... at least I hope I do!!! I don't feel the need to rush it. I want my next HM (or longer!) to be a more pleasant experience than my first one was.

Sooooo, I will keep plugging away, and will continue to pick your brains for as much information as I possibly can! Thanks, everyone!

Pam

------------------
ME!

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posted Aug-15-2007 08:26 PM               

quote:

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Originally posted by catwoman73:
My plan right now is to continue low HR training for the long term, and to continue making adjustments to my training as necessary for continued success. Speed is not my only measure of success with this approach- my mileage has been increasing steadily, I am injury-free, and feel more healthy than I've felt in a very long time. These are all factors that I have to weigh as I continue to re-evaluate the effectiveness of my training. I decided to cancel my fall race plans because I am feeling so well, and I really want to give myself time to continue building my aerobic base. I am still a very new runner, and I'm only 34- I have many years left in me to race.... at least I hope I do!!! I don't feel the need to rush it. I want my next HM (or longer!) to be a more pleasant experience than my first one was.
Pam

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Congratulations! Seems like you're serious about being healthy. It's what it's all about. You'll reap the race benefits over time too.

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posted Aug-17-2007 09:53 AM            

From my understanding, low heart rate training uses fat storage for energy...could this be why my body seems to feel the need for more fat? Or am I just crazy and need to somehow not listen to it?

Another question kind of related to this is about the whole light-headed feeling...is this normal, could it simply be caused from the added milage, or is it most likely something more than that? It does not seem as though I could possibly not be eating enough, but I can not figure out what else the problem could be.

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posted Aug-17-2007 10:14 AM               

I do the bulk of my running in the early morning. When I return I always have something to eat. Historically, I have never eaten breakfast. But I have been doing it for the last several weeks. I feel much better at work in the morning and have no hunger cravings.

In the late morning, I will have a bowl of high fiber cereal and also a few pieces of fruit during the day. Then at night either have a very large salad or make something else.

Eating like this I would normally gain weight. But with all the running I am now doing, I am losing some weight.

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posted Aug-17-2007 11:00 AM            

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posted Aug-17-2007 12:06 PM               

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Originally posted by RunForOranges:
I posted this question in another thread, but haven't gotten a response, so thought I would try here. I have been doing low heart rate training for several months in preparation for my first marathon in October. It has been going well, but what I am struggling with now is my appetite. I feel as though I am constantly hungry! I have always been to watch what I eat and never really even feel the urge to eat anything super unhealthy. However, recently, I am feeling somewhat light-headed and like I need sweets, etc. I try to curb this with fruit, yogurt, things like that, but that is often not enough...I still need the real deal. I would love to hear anyone's input/advice on this, as I do not want to continue to give in to these "bad" cravings, but I also do not want to deprive my body of something it may be telling me that it needs.

From my understanding, low heart rate training uses fat storage for energy...could this be why my body seems to feel the need for more fat? Or am I just crazy and need to somehow not listen to it?

Another question kind of related to this is about the whole light-headed feeling...is this normal, could it simply be caused from the added milage, or is it most likely something more than that? It does ot seem as though I could possibly not be eating enough, but I can not figure out what else the problem could be.

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It's impossible to provide a proper guidance without a good history, etc. (and, of course, not seeing the person). However, I have some general thoughts.

I've rarely seen runners eat too much, rather, they eat too much junk. Many other don't eat enough, especially good fats.

You could have many things going on, and some could be quite normal. Runners need sufficient fat, especially if you're training in such as way as to burn body fat.

Many people are best eating more frequent smaller meals -- I eat 4-6 a day depending on what I'm doing with training, work, etc.

Check out the recipe for healthy energy bars on Maffetone's site (www.philmaffetone.com). I make these all the time and sometime they serve as a meal when I'm traveling or on a long bike ride.

Other factors (such as stress) can increase your hunger and nutritional need. Stop being concerned about gaining weight - it's body fat you want to burn, and weight is not a measure of body fat but muscle mass.

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posted Aug-17-2007 01:07 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by DavidD:
It's impossible to provide a proper guidance without a good history, etc. (and, of course, not seeing the person). However, I have some general thoughts.

I've rarely seen runners eat too much, rather, they eat too much junk. Many other don't eat enough, especially good fats.

You could have many things going on, and some could be quite normal. Runners need sufficient fat, especially if you're training in such as way as to burn body fat.

Many people are best eating more frequent smaller meals -- I eat 4-6 a day depending on what I'm doing with training, work, etc.

Check out the recipe for healthy energy bars on Maffetone's site (www.philmaffetone.com). I make these all the time and sometime they serve as a meal when I'm traveling or on a long bike ride.

Other factors (such as stress) can increase your hunger and nutritional need. Stop being concerned about gaining weight - it's body fat you want to burn, and weight is not a measure of body fat but muscle mass.

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Thank you for the input! Just a little history on me...I am a 28 year old female, about 130lb. I have been running for 7-8 years, training for my first full marathon this year.

What are some examples of "good fat" foods? I do try to stay away from any kind of fatty foods, so I am wondering what would be considered sufficient amount of fat? I am also confused about the carb issue...I have always been under the impression that runners need lots of carbs to fuel them through long runs, etc., but from reading on low heart rate training, this is not necessarily the case?

I will check out the energy bar recipe.

It's not so much the numbers on the scale that I am concerned about, but gaining body fat with the increased craving for these kinds of foods. Wondering if the extra miles are enough to make up for the increased consumption.

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posted Aug-17-2007 03:07 PM               

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Originally posted by RunForOranges:
...What are some examples of "good fat" foods? I do try to stay away from any kind of fatty foods, so I am wondering what would be considered sufficient amount of fat? I am also confused about the carb issue...I have always been under the impression that runners need lots of carbs to fuel them through long runs, etc., but from reading on low heart rate training, this is not necessarily the case?

I will check out the energy bar recipe.

It's not so much the numbers on the scale that I am concerned about, but gaining body fat with the increased craving for these kinds of foods. Wondering if the extra miles are enough to make up for the increased consumption.

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Good fats include olive oil, avocados, nuts, seeds, coconut oil, egg yolks. Bad ones include vegetable oil (corn, safflower, soy, etc.), trans fats (read labels), excess dairy fats.

I think a key to the diet is figuring out how carb sensitive you might be. Maffetone has the Two Week test article on his site with questions about signs and symptoms (I fairly sure this is part of the article, at least his book includes it). This has helped me greatly, and many others.

An interesting thing about body fat is that a lot of carb foods (40-50%) convert to fat and are stored. (This has to do with glycemic index.) And, if you're eating too many carbs it can reduce the amount of body fat burning from running.

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posted Aug-17-2007 03:20 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by DavidD:
Good fats include olive oil, avocados, nuts, seeds, coconut oil, egg yolks. Bad ones include vegetable oil (corn, safflower, soy, etc.), trans fats (read labels), excess dairy fats.

I think a key to the diet is figuring out how carb sensitive you might be. Maffetone has the Two Week test article on his site with questions about signs and symptoms (I fairly sure this is part of the article, at least his book includes it). This has helped me greatly, and many others.

An interesting thing about body fat is that a lot of carb foods (40-50%) convert to fat and are stored. (This has to do with glycemic index.) And, if you're eating too many carbs it can reduce the amount of body fat burning from running.

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I have seen that two week test before...just never tried it because I was pretty sure I would fail miserably. I am joking in a way, but I really do think that it would be extremely tough for me. I guess that is the point, though. You have convinced me to give it a shot, so I will let you know how it goes.

This is very good to know...thank you again for the info!!!

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posted Aug-20-2007 10:37 AM               

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posted Aug-20-2007 11:30 AM            

Thank you everyone for your responses, I really appreciate it!

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posted Aug-20-2007 12:42 PM               

An important point is that IF you're going for an aerobic run, and IF you're burning body fat, you should not be real hungry after the workout. If you are, it may be that you're burning glycogen stores which would usually mean you're not burning enough fat. It may mean you're not as aerobic as you think (typically due to choosing a heart rate higher than what best matches your body).

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posted Aug-20-2007 12:58 PM               

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posted Aug-20-2007 01:58 PM               

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Originally posted by Gregolowe:
Try distributing your food like I said above. If you're still craving sweets, have a big bowl of sweet cereal. Seeing as you're health concious, eat Shredded Wheat and add sugar or Grape Nuts, or Raisen Bran. The added sugar won't hurt you as it's only a small piece of your total nutrient input. Cereal usually does the trick for me when that's happening to me. Or peanut butter and jelly sandwhiches washed down with milk. Mmmm....jelly.

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These are all very high glycemic cereals...Sugar? Yes, even a single bowl of junk cereal or sugar can negatively impact metabolism and reduce fat burning.

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posted Aug-20-2007 04:40 PM            

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Originally posted by DavidD:
These are all very high glycemic cereals...Sugar? Yes, even a single bowl of junk cereal or sugar can negatively impact metabolism and reduce fat burning.

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How long will sugar affect your metabolism and reduce fat burning? Should you not eat sugar X number of hours before a workout to not affect metabolism or should I limit my sugar intake as a whole as much as possible?

For example, if I wake up in the AM and run without eating, then shower, etc and eat junk cereal 2 hours later, have I done anything that would negatively affect my next day's run?

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posted Aug-20-2007 05:00 PM            

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Originally posted by DavidD:

An interesting thing about body fat is that a lot of carb foods (40-50%) convert to fat and are stored. (This has to do with glycemic index.) And, if you're eating too many carbs it can reduce the amount of body fat burning from running.

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I think I understand a little. Are you saying that carbs that are converted to fat and stored are not accessable during exercise?

I just read somewhere about this- that one uses "accessable" fat during exercise, not stored fat, correct?

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posted Aug-20-2007 08:16 PM               

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Originally posted by Ace8:
I think I understand a little. Are you saying that carbs that are converted to fat and stored are not accessable during exercise?

I just read somewhere about this- that one uses "accessable" fat during exercise, not stored fat, correct?

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I was saying that a lot of carbs are stored as fat (I believe most fat via the diet -- carbs + fats -- goes into storage first). 40% could be considered normal but in people with high intakes of high glycemic carbs more than 40% of the carb intake could turn to fat. And, in this situation, there would be a reduction of fat burning overall from training since the high carb diet would shift metabolism to more sugar burning (and less fat burning).

We burn both sugar and fat for energy (very small amounts of protein) all the time, and if we program our body to burn more sugar (such as with high glycemic foods, or anaerobic training), we burn less fat.

The fat we burn comes from storage. I suppose you can't burn it if it's actually in storage, so it comes out of storage and goes into the muscle during the actual process of conversion to energy.

Don't mean to get so technical, and don't mean to overly simplify the technical stuff

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