posted Jul-01-2007 01:39 PM               

I also went over 64,000 miles of running this past week. One of my long range goals was to get to and surpass 1,000 mile increments to be equal to my age. When I started at age 32 back in '76 I had a lot of catching up to do. Got to 62,000 last summer but then turned 63. Got to 63,000 in Jan and now am over 64,000 and I won't be 64 until September.

I plan on another fmonth of LHR training then will start gradually doing tempo runs that will average in the 140's, then 150's etc. a la Hadd. My max is 200. One of my missions is to get in under 4 hrs(BQ) in December at the Huntsville marathon. If I can get in under 3:58--that will be faster than my first marathon there 30 years ago!

All the best. Nick

PS. Jesse for President

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posted Jul-01-2007 01:49 PM               

quote:

---

Originally posted by melistic:
Thanks Jimmy & Jesse,
I think I understand Dr. Phil's approach a little better now.

The goal being to stay entirely w/in an aerobic state to lower resting H.R and burn fat while building an aerobic base. Most of it makes valid sense.
I would think the theories would take into account where/when you went anerobic. I will read further into it because you have piqued my interest. The one size fits all worries me as I know how ineffective MHR 220-age is for most of the populous.
@ 180 -32 = 148. I could run there for days. My long run is @ 135 mostly. ( which if I read right you are saying is too low) And I can jope rope under Maf quite easily. So it's seems as I just naturally tend to follow some of the principals.
I will work on it in the pool. I can see the drowning pace now. But that's o.k. anything that will calm me, I'll take.

Thanks for the answers,
Melissa

---

No, you're not running too low! That's fine to stay several beats
under if you're happy with it - entirely up to you and it's consistent
with the program. Right the max heart rate equation really has nothing
to do with it - formulas in themselves should be concerning to anyone.
This is a recurring discussion here, but it's quite possible that the
MAF equation can give people too high of a heart rate to train by
(if they have an exceptionally low max heart rate or anaerobic
threshold), but there's little risk of it giving too low (or more specifically
there's little risk of running at too low of a heart rate as long as you
get some kind of running, such as downhill, that gives you some
good leg turnover if the pace at that heart rate is too slow. Quite
frankly, if you're already comfortable with the pace at MAF-10 or more,
then you're in pretty good shape. I would also guess that you're not
measuring your resting heart rate the best way possible.

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posted Jul-01-2007 01:50 PM               

quote:

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Originally posted by Long Run Nick:

All the best. Nick

PS. Jesse for President

---

You're funny, Nick! As if I have more to teach you than you me.

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posted Jul-01-2007 04:15 PM               

quote:

---

Originally posted by grapejelly:
Anyone play with their breathing by slowing it down or reducing the rate of their inhales and prolonging their exhales? Maffetone mentions this in the book I read and I do "reduced breathing" as a matter of course when I run. This slows down your heart rate some.

---

I think you got overlooked the first time.

I change breathing patterns during almost every run. I've noticed that as I get closer and closer to my MAF HR that it helps to keep me under. I find that if I exhale as hard as I can and take deep breaths the fresh air seems to lower my HR.

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posted Jul-01-2007 07:09 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by jjwaverly42:
SOME SUCCESS!!

Progress report on my 67-year old friend who had lost his spirit and was about to give up running. A man with 34 marathons under his belt, and hundreds of shorter races. A real dedicated runner, who did some incredible things. His sciatica and legs felt like crap, and he could only run a few miles. He would train the "run everything hard" approach, ladder-type intervals at the track. When he said he was going to quit because he just wasn't having any fun anymore, I said to him "Since you're ready to quit, why don't you try one more thing." Somehow, I got an old-timer to give MAFF a try. I gave him a spare HRM and MAffetone's High Performance Heart book. He set a zone of 113-123 (180-age +10 for being 67--senior discount). AFter three weeks, he's running 28 miles per week, and loving runniing again. His sciatica is not a problem, and his legs are feeling great on the majority of his runs. We are running together on Sundays, and he's like this young boy that is chomping at the bit, he feels so good. He keeps calling me "coach" and saying things like "I feel like I could go faster, but I'll be a good boy, stay under the 123." I am so psyched for him. He has been revived!!

Hopefully he'll stay smart and remember why he is feeling good, and not run himself back into his former state.

So, there is a growing success story.

Thanks to Gino and Nick, as he read both your stories and was truly inspired.

--Jimmy

Jog Log
zzzzzzz

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Great stuff, Jimmy. Er, I mean coach.

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posted Jul-02-2007 12:06 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by melistic:
... I would think the theories would take into account where/when you went anerobic...
<snip>
The one size fits all worries me as I know how ineffective MHR 220-age is for most of the populous...
<snip>
@ 180 -32 = 148. I could run there for days. My long run is @ 135 mostly.

---

Where/when you went anaerobic is at your Anaerobic Threshold (AT) where you start burning 100% carbs for fuel. That point won't tell you where you have to be to get a reasonable percentage (at least 50%, 75% is better) of your exercise energy from fat burning. In some VO2 test results I got a look at the heart rate difference between Aerobic Threshold (AeT) where you burn a reasonable percentage of fat and the Anaerobic Threshold (AT) (all carbs), for women ages 32-34, varied from under 10 bpm to over 40 bpm. So the AT isn't a very good predictor of where your LHR base-building aerobic training HR should be.

The "one size fits all" formulas are not as accurate, for any individual, as a VO2 test would be. One 32 year old woman in those VO2 tests had a measured AeT of 163, so 148 wouldn't be "pushing it" for her, but she would still be in a good aerobic range there.

What you mean when you say your long run is @135, and that you could run @148 for days? If you could run @148 for days, why wouldn’t you be doing your long run @148? Just wondering, I guess I’m slow to figure things out sometimes.

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posted Jul-03-2007 06:53 AM            

Thanks

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posted Jul-03-2007 09:09 AM               

~Shell

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posted Jul-03-2007 11:27 AM               

quote:

---

Originally posted by purelyshell:
I've also been following this thread and find it very interesting. I want to get Maffetone's book but it is on backorder. Does anyone know when it is expected to be available?

~Shell

---

Have you read the info on Jesse's posts/responses? The things listed under his name. That will give you a lot of info as well as reading the 45 ++ page forum topic started by Jesse last Nov?)---if that is still on line. Hope that helps. Nick

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posted Jul-03-2007 11:38 AM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by purelyshell:
I've also been following this thread and find it very interesting. I want to get Maffetone's book but it is on backorder. Does anyone know when it is expected to be available?

~Shell

---

You can get the same info from Maffetone's other book. The High Performance Heart, available used and new at Amazon:

click here to peruse

Also, as far as the basic set-up of the program, along with the aformentioned Jesse's FAQ, this Mark Allen page is very informative:

http://www.markallenonline.com/heartrate.asp

Keep going!

--Jimmy

Jog Log
zzzzzzz

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posted Jul-03-2007 11:42 AM               

quote:

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Originally posted by slowgino:
interesting Ae, At, Vo2 info

What you mean when you say your long run is @135, and that you could run @148 for days? If you could run @148 for days, why wouldn’t you be doing your long run @148? Just wondering, I guess I’m slow to figure things out sometimes.

---

I'd say my first mile fluctuates between 135-155. But as I settle into long run pace my HR settles around 135. I'm still building distance.
I'm not a distance gal so "run for days" was probably overstepping but say an hour+, clipping along I'll stay near 148 or less. What I meant, I think, was I have to really be working to hit much higher. (this of course does not include big hills, tuff trails..then again maybe it does, I've never really had a reason to check before..)
I run my LSR at a much easier pace than reg. miles...Doesn't everyone?
Mel

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posted Jul-03-2007 01:51 PM               

quote:

---

Originally posted by melistic:
I'd say my first mile fluctuates between 135-155. But as I settle into long run pace my HR settles around 135. I'm still building distance.
I'm not a distance gal so "run for days" was probably overstepping but say an hour+, clipping along I'll stay near 148 or less. What I meant, I think, was I have to really be working to hit much higher. (this of course does not include big hills, tuff trails..then again maybe it does, I've never really had a reason to check before..)
I run my LSR at a much easier pace than reg. miles...Doesn't everyone?
Mel

---

Just a suggestion. Try going out for your first mile or so and keeping your heart rate way below whatever your MAF or "training HR" is. Maybe it is my age but my first mile or 2 are way slower than once I warm up--same with my HR--I usually average 10 BPM less when warming up--if not more.. I marvel at people who can just start running and don't need any warm up. For long term, walking/slogging(slow jogging) and real EZ running for at least 10-20 minutes will result in less risk of injury. These words from a 63 + yr old guy. Nick

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posted Jul-03-2007 07:31 PM               

quote:

---

Originally posted by Long Run Nick:
Have you read the info on Jesse's posts/responses? The things listed under his name. That will give you a lot of info as well as reading the 45 ++ page forum topic started by Jesse last Nov?)---if that is still on line. Hope that helps. Nick

---

If you go into the "archive" discussion forum, you can find the
last two "books" of this thread.

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posted Jul-03-2007 09:19 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by melistic:
... but say an hour+, clipping along I'll stay near 148 or less. What I meant, I think, was I have to really be working to hit much higher.
<snip>
(this of course does not include big hills, tuff trails..then again maybe it does...
<snip>
I run my LSR at a much easier pace than reg. miles...Doesn't everyone?
Mel

---

Ahh... if you're "clipping along" at 148 then the 135 for long runs makes sense. If you have to be really working to hit much higher, that 148 probably is too high for low heart rate training. Yeah... big hills. Seems to be much easier to get the heart rate up on those hills.

If by LSR you mean "long slow run", well...
For LHR training (which I'm doing now) I run everything pretty much in the same heart rate range. Some runs are just longer than others. A race would be no different, as I'm still LHRing. A half marathon 3 weeks ago... just a training run, as usual. A marathon in October will be just the same... a good training "long run" for that week. I always pick up the pace on the downhills, to remind the body how to run efficiently at the higher pace... still keeping the heart rate at a good LHR level. Well... that's just me... others might do it differently.

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posted Jul-03-2007 09:25 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by melistic:
... but say an hour+, clipping along I'll stay near 148 or less. What I meant, I think, was I have to really be working to hit much higher.
<snip>
(this of course does not include big hills, tuff trails..then again maybe it does...
<snip>
I run my LSR at a much easier pace than reg. miles...Doesn't everyone?
Mel

---

Ahh... if you're "clipping along" at 148 then the 135 for long runs makes sense. If you have to be really working to hit much higher, that 148 probably is too high for low heart rate training. Yeah... big hills. Seems to be much easier to get the heart rate up on those hills.

If by LSR you mean "long slow run", well...
For LHR training (which I'm doing now) I run everything pretty much in the same heart rate range. Some runs are just longer than others. A race would be no different, as I'm still LHRing. A half marathon 3 weeks ago... just a training run, as usual. A marathon in October will be just the same... a good training "long run" for that week. I always pick up the pace on the downhills, to remind the body how to run efficiently at the higher pace... still keeping the heart rate at a good LHR level. Well... that's just me... others might do it differently.

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posted Jul-03-2007 11:27 PM               

LRN: I always start out easy. I'll admit to being bad about my cool down, (always stretch!!) but my warm-up is just that, my HR just jumps around like mad usually, so does my mind for a mile or too.
...
I have never used the phrase HR so much, till I introduced myself to y'all,
Mel

[This message has been edited by melistic (edited Jul-04-2007).]

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posted Jul-04-2007 06:36 AM               

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posted Jul-04-2007 09:01 AM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by purelyshell:
I've also been following this thread and find it very interesting. I want to get Maffetone's book but it is on backorder. Does anyone know when it is expected to be available?

~Shell

---

My wife bought Maffetone's "Training for Endurance" for me for Father's Day from the website that states it is on backorder for reprinting. The book was delivered to our house 4 business days after ordering. So, I'm guessing they still have a few copies laying around.

[This message has been edited by Ace8 (edited Jul-04-2007).]

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posted Jul-04-2007 09:50 AM               

Thanks!

~Shell

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posted Jul-04-2007 10:53 AM               

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posted Jul-04-2007 06:01 PM            

--Jimmy

Jog Log
zzzzzzz

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posted Jul-04-2007 06:07 PM               

quote:

---

Originally posted by jjwaverly42:
We need to start hitting Maffetone up for some residuals.
I bet a lot of people have bought his book because of this thread.

--Jimmy

Jog Log
zzzzzzz

---

Yeah, I was thinking that same thing this morning. We seem to
be pulling the book out of obscurity, off of the obsolete, no longer
published, list.

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posted Jul-04-2007 06:35 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by leitnerj:
It looks like pccoach.com still has them for 12.95 which where
I ordered mine from a couple years ago. Of course, I didn't go
through the entire ordering process just now, so I don't know if
they'll tell me it's on backorder or something.

---

Yes- Mine was purchased from pccoach.com and it came in 4 business days, even though the website states "Currently on backorder while being reprinted."

http://www.pccoach.com/products/books/book_fit_t4e.htm

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posted Jul-04-2007 11:06 PM            

On a slightly different topic, I'm amazed at how close Jesse's Average HR is to his Highest HR on his workouts. I got the Garmin 305 about 5 days ago; and here are my results for the last 4 workouts:

Day 1: Max HR 145/Avg HR 131 (10.2 miles)
Day 2: Max HR 138/Avg HR 110 (recovery jog with a kick for leg cadence at the end) - (9.5 miles
Day 3: Max HR 146/Avg HR 128 (16.4 miles)
Day 4: Max HR 151/Avg HR 130 (6 miles)

The only way I could get my Avg HR within 4 or 5 beats of my max would be to sprint out like a madman for 400 meters and get my HR way up there, then slow down until I hit MAF.

I tend to go at a somewhat constant pace throughout, one that I believe will put me at MAF from about mile 3 onward (although for a 16 miler; maybe mile 5 onward).

Jesse - I'm confused - how do you do it? Do you just slow down to get to MAF fast and then slow to stay at MAF? It takes me quite a while to get up to MAF. (Mine is around 145-147)

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posted Jul-05-2007 01:12 PM            

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