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Topic: Basebuilding, low heart rate training, via Maffetone/Mark Allen/Hadd/Mittleman |
litefoot
Cool Runner |
 posted Jul-28-2007 12:54 PM
   
quote:
Originally posted by jamjat:
I am new to low heart rate training, having been doing it for the last two weeks. I really appreciate having this thread - I have learned a lot from it, read two Maffletone books, and some web info from some of the others. I am doing it because I have been running for four years, originally lost a lot of weight but have leveled off with my speed and can't seem to improve, and my heart rate gets quite high even on easy runs or hikes. My MAF heart rate is 141 and to run keeping below that I have been running 14-15 min miles. One route I do regularly has been taking me 90 min to run keeping my heart rate below 141 (previously I could run it in 75 min - about 6.5 mi) Today, I decided to fast-walk it to see what happened with time and heart rate. My heart rate averaged 122, never got higher than 135 and the walk took me the same 90 min as when I run. Has anyone else had experience with this, where your heart rate gets up easily running, but you are running so slowly you might as well be walking? Of course when I run it I feel like I could go forever and nothing is sore, and after walking it I feel a blister coming on the bottom of my feet and my calves feel sore, so I can see the advantages there over running, but I was amazed that at 20 bpm slower I could walk it in the same time. Any comments would be greatly appreciated!
It IS tough at first. Your muscles are all confused at this "strange" pace you're running. Soreness sets in. You are embarassed by having to walk up hills that you could blast up easily. Moms jogging with strollers are passing you. Your HRM is bleeping at you to slow down. But then in a few weeks, the sun starts peeking out from behind the dark clouds. The soreness goes away. You're running up those hills and your pace quickens. You feel good because you're covering ground quicker at a lower heart rate. It's paying off!
That was me after only 4-5 weeks.
IP: Logged |
Long Run Nick
Cool Runner |
posted Jul-28-2007 03:16 PM
A quick update from a 31 yr runner(soon to be 64) with over 64,000 miles. Those miles were amassed by running 2-3 minutes slower than my race pace over the years on 90%+ of my runs. 3 months ago I started the "Jesse LHR" training. The MAF formula of 180- my age = 117. I added 5 for lots of running over the years--another 5 for being over 50 and thanks to Mark Allen another 5 for being over 60 =132. I was taken back at what I thought was "slow/ez" running prior to my LHR training. I realized I ran most of my runs at 70-80% of my max HR (200) which resulted in runs averaging around 150, with days when I thought I was getting lazy and would run even quicker. The results: I have averaged 132 HR for over 650 miles over the last 3 months. I have added a day of running per week: now 6 days vs 5. Have upped my weekly mileage from 40-45 to 55-60. I have never run that much--even training for marathons (15) and ultras (10+) in my running career. The great thing for me is I can't remember feeling so fresh during and after my runs--even here in Florida-- with temps in the 80's and 90's with humidity to match. My pace has improved at the same HR from around 12 min miles to around 10:45's. More important is how good my legs feel. Hey, did I mention being 63++ with LOTS of miles? I plan on following Hadd's approach and gradually building up in tempo runs and plan on smashing under 4hrs at the Rocket City Marathon in December. I will celebrate the 30th anniversary of my first marathon there back in 1977 (where I ran a 3:58). I hope to be able to say I ran a marathon faster than I did 30 yrs ago. Old marathon PR was a 3:16 back in my early 40's. Have run under 18 for a 5K and 36 :30 for a 10 K back in the early 80's after 10 yrs of running. I put all of that so folks have a frame of reference about my running. Yeow, I can ramble can't I? Part of getting older I guess. I want to thank Jesse and Jimmy and Wilomina as well as Slogino for their posts--as well as others. Who says you can't teach an old horse new tricks? And remember, I am the guy who has always advised OTHERS to slow down. Thanks for letting me share. Nick PS--For those worried about walkng. It is a great idea. I ran/walked my Ultras, as well as training that way,and could get in under 8:30 for a 50 miler. Aside from my running miles, I probably get in 8-10 miles weekly walking our dog. Walks work.
IP: Logged |
jjwaverly42
Cool Runner |
posted Jul-28-2007 04:19 PM
Congrats, Nick.
Excellent progress in 3 months.
Keep going!--Jimmy
MAF log ImemineImemineImemine
IP: Logged |
jjwaverly42
Cool Runner |
posted Jul-28-2007 04:35 PM
The summer heat, stress of buying a new home (first time), and the overwhelming excitement that the two Coreys (Haim and Feldman) are going to have their own reality show has been kicking my butt. Elevated RHR in the mornings the past few weeks (12 beats up). Went down a little today. In response, I took a recovery week last week (cutting down 50%), and this week I've been doing lots of 4-5 milers, sometimes two a day, to get my miles in. I find my body is tolerating this strategy right now, and my performances are normalizing. The home buying process is progressing past the financing, choosing, inspecting, appraising, and titlesearching stage to the clean-my-current-love-shack-and-pack-until -closing stage. I'm emerging an educated man with a few darker hairs (my Irish head has been all gray since age 29, so when I stress they get darker).
Still seeing a little progress in my aerobic interval runs (which I love doing), as I've knocked 28 seconds per mile off those. MAF tests went to Antarctica, then came back. Getting there.Thanks for reading. When you read my next post, it will be the here and now then, too. (Here and now jokes work well at the local Zen center. Found that they stopped the master from whacking me with his stick when he caught me thinking) --Jimmy MAF log
#9#9#9
[This message has been edited by jjwaverly42 (edited Jul-28-2007).]
IP: Logged |
leitnerj
Cool Runner |
posted Jul-28-2007 06:15 PM
Nick! Keep it up! Love to see the great progress. Jimmy - no doubt, I almost can't handle the excitement of
the Corey reality series. I'm just overflowing with bubbly
anticipation. I hope it doesn't throw off my fall race season. Working through the heat ... trying to rebuild my old
conditioning. Going well inside. Slow going outside.
How ready will I be for my first 50k of the second half
of the year (a week from today)? We'll see! My first
race of the season is never good, but it is a good tune-up
and wakeup call.
------------------
MyRunningLog
MyStuff
Low Heart Rate Training FAQ
My marathons and ultras
My races and reports
IP: Logged |
dcv2002
Cool Runner |
posted Jul-28-2007 07:53 PM
It's all the Dew Point isn't it.... The humidity has returned back to the Northeast. It's not super hot, but I definitely feel a difference running when the dew points is 71-73F than when the DP is 59-61F. My pace doesn't seem to vary that much over 6-7 mile runs, however. I ran my fastest MAF paced run last Wed at 843mpm. DP was 59. This am DP was 71-72 ran same route at 900mpm. But today's felt worse.What the highest DP anyone has run in? So far since I've started up its a DP of 72. I don't know how people in the south do it. My highest temp run was 84 at a Monday night race. Running the NYC Half next Sunday, if its like this morning, thats not going to be fun. I can't wait til October, November runs. Hopefully, the pace will come down some more.... Only if every running day could be like the weather we had for the NYC Marathon last November... That was the perfect running weather day.
IP: Logged |
catwoman73
Cool Runner |
posted Jul-28-2007 08:25 PM
Nick- congrats on the progress! You are an inspiration to us all.Jimmy- I know what you are going through, buying your first home, and all. I did the same thing last November, and it was incredibly stressful. I ended up with bronchitis, and unable to run at all for a couple of weeks. So, take it easy, and enjoy the process. You only buy your first home once! MAF is going pretty well for me, so far. I'm feeling fresh and energetic after my runs, no matter what the distance. Looking forward to my next MAF test, to see if I've actually made any progress. I'm curious- how long did it take the rest of you to start seeing improvements? Did anyone actually get worse at first? Happy running, all!
Pam ------------------
ME!
IP: Logged |
gregw
Cool Runner |
posted Jul-28-2007 09:16 PM
quote:
Originally posted by catwoman73:
Did anyone actually get worse at first?
I got "worse" at first, but I wasn't controlling for heat and humidity. Here's what I saw last year code:
5/13 - 56F temp/53F dew pt.
6/03 - 66F temp/60F dew pt.
6/24 - 70F temp/67F dew pt.
7/10 - 67F temp/58F dew pt.
9/09 - 63F temp/58F dew pt 5/13 6/03 6/24 7/10 9/09
Mile 1 09:18 09:59 09:53 09:30 09:11
Mile 2 09:32 10:02 10:01 09:32 09:18
Mile 3 09:35 09:57 09:54 09:34 09:19
Mile 4 09:45 09:59 10:09 09:38 09:22
Mile 5 09:52 10:05 10:19 09:45 09:25
IP: Logged |
gregw
Cool Runner |
posted Jul-29-2007 01:36 PM
quote:
Originally posted by dcv2002:
It's all the Dew Point isn't it....
Yes it is. Last week was unusually dry, and I did my usual 18 miles at 8:40 pace and felt pretty good. Today was 9:26 and I felt like I was going to die. In fact, I set out to do 20, but when I figured it would take over 3 hours, I opted not to. It was a little cooler last Sunday, but the big difference was a dew point of 53 last week, versus one today of 69-71. Ugh. As a nation, I think we should devote our precious resources to ending the twin scourges of humidity and plantar fasciitis.
IP: Logged |
dcv2002
Cool Runner |
posted Jul-29-2007 07:51 PM
quote:
Originally posted by gregw:
Yes it is. Last week was unusually dry, and I did my usual 18 miles at 8:40 pace and felt pretty good. Today was 9:26 and I felt like I was going to die. In fact, I set out to do 20, but when I figured it would take over 3 hours, I opted not to. It was a little cooler last Sunday, but the big difference was a dew point of 53 last week, versus one today of 69-71. Ugh.As a nation, I think we should devote our precious resources to ending the twin scourges of humidity and plantar fasciitis.
Today was even worse! DP of 73. 8 miles of sweat and ugh. A little slower today about 906mpm but I ran 8 today instead of yesterday's 6. What was funny was that my AHR on my 1st mile was only 124 MAF-21, 139 (MAF-6). I dream of November...
IP: Logged |
dfcameron
Cool Runner |
posted Jul-29-2007 09:21 PM
FWIW, I've been training for years with this approach... but recently added a twist where I'd run even at a lower heart rate and do really long runs (over 3 hours - up to 6). I'm 44; my max HR is 183 - and my MAF is around 145. Yet... I did several training runs averaging around 130 - with one 5 miler averaging 99 (13 min/mi pace - but "running"). Anyway... yesterday I finished the Grand Island Trail Marathon in 3:55. I kept the entire run at a heart rate below 150 until the last 3.2 miles - where I picked it up noticeably until my heart rate hit 175 at the finish. Grand Island has beach parts (at least 1 mile on beach sand), lots of elevation change, a fair amount of rocks and roots, the winning time was 2:55. Anyway... the advantage to MAF training etc. (and I'm a Van Aaken fan) is that I was able to go out and do 6.5 miles today; and feel a lot more recovered than most do. Although... I admit this was NOT an all-out effort... only the last 3.2 was - but it wasn't an easy jog either.
IP: Logged |
willamona
Cool Runner |
posted Jul-29-2007 10:49 PM
Ok, I have a confession to make. I just did not feel it in today's run. I am really sick of running in the heat and it was 80 degrees out when I started. So I did most of my run at MAF -10 rather than MAF. Please forgive me. Actually, I have been seeing several runs go to the MAF -10 range lately, and I just don't feel the need to kick it back up to MAF. It's flipping hot out and I just don't care right now. Ok. Thank you. I feel better.------------------
***********
My myspace
No Complaining
Low Heart Rate Training FAQ Because many have asked...
You have poopie pants.
IP: Logged |
jjwaverly42
Cool Runner |
posted Jul-29-2007 11:20 PM
Give us four "Hail Phils" and three "Our Jesses" for the weird-ass guilt.
:> )--Jimmy MAF log babyyoucandrivemycar
IP: Logged |
willamona
Cool Runner |
posted Jul-29-2007 11:23 PM
Thanks Jimmy, you always make me smile.------------------
***********
My myspace
No Complaining
Low Heart Rate Training FAQ Because many have asked...
You have poopie pants.
IP: Logged |
chrisfield
Member |
posted Jul-30-2007 09:53 AM
I would appreciate any help I could get on this topic:http://www.coolrunning.com/forums/Forum6/HTML/024723.shtml
IP: Logged |
bluelake
Cool Runner |
posted Jul-30-2007 11:28 AM
I have been mostly lurking here with interest in MAF training. I am a newbie converted from walking to running about 3 mo ago via C25K. I began increasing my mileage & including hills after completing C25K, but was not feeling good. My runs were gruelling and at times I think I was approaching heat stroke. I decided to give MAF a try about 5 weeks ago. I know I haven't been at it long enough to see much benefit, but I can already see progress. Currently @ ~30MPW with 13 on my long run. Physically, I feel like I could do more, but trying to rein in my overachiever tendencies. I just finished Middleman's Slow Burn, great book. I had observed the tunnel concentration he mentioned in the 5Ks I had done as another poster commented. MAF allows me to enjoy the scenery around me and log more miles without injury.
I'm going at it sans HRM as mine had to go back for repairs so I appreciate the feedback from yall re: nose breathing. I think that's a fairly accurate way to self-monitor without HRM.I have two questions: I would like to run the Birmingham Marathon in Feb 2008, is this reasonable? Second, how do you know when to move on from MAF and add speedwork? Thanks to you guys, I have learned so much from yall.
I posted this last week, but didn't get any replies, so I'm trying again.
bluelake
IP: Logged |
jamjat
Cool Runner |
posted Jul-30-2007 12:26 PM
quote:
Originally posted by bluelake:
I have two questions: I would like to run the Birmingham Marathon in Feb 2008, is this reasonable? Second, how do you know when to move on from MAF and add speedwork? Thanks to you guys, I have learned so much from yall.
I posted this last week, but didn't get any replies, so I'm trying again.
bluelake
I have only been doing low heart rate training for 2 weeks, so I'm hardly an expert, but having read this whole thread, some of the archived ones, two Maffletone books and Slow Burn, I think I can say that you really can't do this training and run a marathon in 6 months, unless you are prepared to run the whole thing at MAF pace. I definitely get the impression that this training is a fairly long term commitment and you have to give it time. I think when you start adding in speedwork is when you are no longer improving month to month at MAF pace. One thing I was wondering after reading Slow Burn by Mittleman, is about his whole diet section. He seems quite strict in the beginning, saying very few carbs other than veggies, including limiting whole grains and other "good carbs". He also seems to want people to only eat meat very occasionally. Then he gets into the whole blood type thing, which is where I started to think he might be a bit of a wacko. I can see where maybe different peoples descended from certain ancestral groups, but I find it hard to believe that as a type A I should be a vegetarian and eat more grains, but my husband who's a type O can eat meat, etc. Seems like we're all humans and probably with exceptions for food intolerances, etc. what's good for one is generally good for all. Also his muscle testing where he has people put certain foods in their hands and tests their strength seems to be a bit full of hooey - but then I've never gone in for that kind of thing. What do you all think about his food info?
IP: Logged |
Gregolowe
Cool Runner |
posted Jul-30-2007 12:52 PM
I just finished Slow Burn yesterday. I just ignored the business about eating according to your blood type. Eating a greater amount of fat in your diet however I do think is a valid idea physiologically. If you intend to do the majority of your training in aerobic zones, then eat more fat so your body adapts to using that for fuel more readily. He does advocate eating some rice and potatoes though. I'm not going whole hog. I don't buy the Zone ideas of Dr. Sears. I just try to eat whole foods. I eat lots of eggs and meat with fat in and on it, like chicken legs, the whole chicken frankly, steaks, hamburger. i don't fear saturated fat. It's very stable. I also eat alot of vegetables, corn tortillas, corn, beans, salads, sprouted grain bread, drink beer and tequila... whatever. I just try and stay away from processed foods as much as possible. I haven't tried the muscle testing thing and I too think it's a little weird. You can't argue with the guys accomplishments. I will take what he says about training, and pretty much ignore the rest of his ideas about muscle testing, big clown shoes, and eating according to your blood type. I don't buy his business about alkaline vs. acid in the body either. Your body takes care of that itself just fine. I'm going to get one of Maffetone's books now and shelve this one for reference. I do like the things he says about tuning into your perceptions around you when running as I've experienced that to be valid, though I think the way he describes it is weird.
IP: Logged |
DanMoriarity
Cool Runner |
posted Jul-30-2007 12:58 PM
quote:
Originally posted by willamona:
Ok, I have a confession to make. I just did not feel it in today's run. I am really sick of running in the heat and it was 80 degrees out when I started. So I did most of my run at MAF -10 rather than MAF. Please forgive me. Actually, I have been seeing several runs go to the MAF -10 range lately, and I just don't feel the need to kick it back up to MAF. It's flipping hot out and I just don't care right now. Ok. Thank you. I feel better.
No worries. Lots of my runs are MAF -10 or -15 or whatever. I think you still get significant aerobic benefits, as long as you're actually running and using your normal running form. FWIW, my coach ran a 2:32 marathon at age 45 and has told me that he ran all his non-workout days at around 125 bpm. His MAF would have been 140. ( 180-45+5 ).
IP: Logged |
jjwaverly42
Cool Runner |
posted Jul-30-2007 01:23 PM
quote:
Originally posted by jamjat:
I can see where maybe different peoples descended from certain ancestral groups, but I find it hard to believe that as a type A I should be a vegetarian and eat more grains, but my husband who's a type O can eat meat, etc. Seems like we're all humans and probably with exceptions for food intolerances, etc. what's good for one is generally good for all. Also his muscle testing where he has people put certain foods in their hands and tests their strength seems to be a bit full of hooey - but then I've never gone in for that kind of thing. What do you all think about his food info?
There are certain foods, which are non-native to my Irish genetic homeland, that give me more gas than a hot air balloon. These foods are basically indigestable for me and are basically like eating forkloads of pain. Whether or not that is based on blood-type, can't tell you. I can tell you that I am nearly all Irish, a little French, and a smidgeon English. That puts me in a certian geographical area genetic-wise. The way my body handles certain foods is definitely a genetic thing. So, I don't think he is that wacko. There might be some truth to what he is saying. I think a diet with less crap, healthy fats, ample fiber, and copious amounts of steamed grasshoppers (Man vs. Wild fan), is the way to go. Stu, in his extreme way is dragging us in a good direction. The essence is to pay attention to how you feel after you eat certain foods, and adjust accordingly. --Jimmy MAF log
Isn'titgoodNorwegianwood
IP: Logged |
jamjat
Cool Runner |
posted Jul-30-2007 01:35 PM
I think you're right on target with what you're taking from Slow Burn and what you're ignoring. I also think as long as you stay away from processed foods and refined grains it's fine to eat grains and meat etc. And yes,definitely seeing what works for your body and what doesn't, like Jimmy says, makes great sense. I also thought the acid/base thing was pretty wierd, but like you say, it works for him and he certainly has done well. And all the stuff about listening to your body and running so that you're enjoying it makes very good sense - so willamona, by running slower today when the heat and humidity were bad, that sounds like exactly what you should be doing. I personally did the rower today since I had an 8 year old around with nowhere to go, and after 15 min the humidity (or whatever) made me so queasy I had to stop!
IP: Logged |
jamjat
Cool Runner |
posted Jul-30-2007 01:46 PM
Yes, I think you are both right on the foods, Jimmy and Gregolowe, to watch what personally affects you and to be sensible on the whole grains, fats etc and cut out processed foods. That all ties in with the listening to your body that Stu is so big on, which goes back to Willamona taking an easier run today with the heat or humidity, which sounds like exactly what is the right thing to do. Yesterday I was 4 min faster at MAF on my 6.5 mi run than I had been at the beginning of MAF training, so "unofficial" results look good - I'll do the official tests every month and see what happens.
IP: Logged |
jjwaverly42
Cool Runner |
posted Jul-30-2007 01:48 PM
quote:
Originally posted by bluelake:
I have been mostly lurking here with interest in MAF training. I am a newbie converted from walking to running about 3 mo ago via C25K. I began increasing my mileage & including hills after completing C25K, but was not feeling good. My runs were gruelling and at times I think I was approaching heat stroke. I decided to give MAF a try about 5 weeks ago. I know I haven't been at it long enough to see much benefit, but I can already see progress. Currently @ ~30MPW with 13 on my long run. Physically, I feel like I could do more, but trying to rein in my overachiever tendencies. I just finished Middleman's Slow Burn, great book. I had observed the tunnel concentration he mentioned in the 5Ks I had done as another poster commented. MAF allows me to enjoy the scenery around me and log more miles without injury.
I'm going at it sans HRM as mine had to go back for repairs so I appreciate the feedback from yall re: nose breathing. I think that's a fairly accurate way to self-monitor without HRM.I have two questions: I would like to run the Birmingham Marathon in Feb 2008, is this reasonable? Second, how do you know when to move on from MAF and add speedwork? Thanks to you guys, I have learned so much from yall.
I posted this last week, but didn't get any replies, so I'm trying again.
bluelake
Congrats on all your progress.
First, remember that the essence of MAF training is the creation of health, then fitness, then performance. There are more than a few ways to go at it, depending on what you want, where you are at, and how it fits what you are doing. If you are in a sorry aerobic state, not feeling well after runs, injured in any way, then the rebuilding approach may be for you. The idea is to keep running under your MAF until you reach a plateau of progress (making sure it is not due to dehydration or overtraining), then begin to add some speedwork in, and a race season. If you are doing okay, not injured, your aerobic system has you running some good paces at MAF from the beginning, then an 8-16 week base period before the next race season is fine. You can absolutely do a marathon in February, though it is sometimes wise to build up to it in terms of racing. Perhaps a half-marathon first. I did my first marathon, on good advice to wait, after running 18 months. So, just get solid on what it is you want. The full picture. Be willing to take the necessary time to get there, and not rush. Rushing in running, or "hopping levels" tends to bite you in the bootie every time. Let your body adapt. MAF is a good way to get there, and stay healthy at the same time. Good luck. Keep going! --Jimmy MAF log whenyouroutatheblueandintotheblack
IP: Logged |
Gregolowe
Cool Runner |
posted Jul-30-2007 01:54 PM
I just finished Slow Burn yesterday. I just ignored the business about eating according to your blood type. Eating a greater amount of fat in your diet however I do think is a valid idea physiologically. If you intend to do the majority of your training in aerobic zones, then eat more fat so your body adapts to using that for fuel more readily. He does advocate eating some rice and potatoes though. I'm not going whole hog. I don't buy the Zone ideas of Dr. Sears. I just try to eat whole foods. I eat lots of eggs and meat with fat in and on it, like chicken legs, the whole chicken frankly, steaks, hamburger. i don't fear saturated fat. It's very stable. I also eat alot of vegetables, corn tortillas, corn, beans, salads, sprouted grain bread, drink beer and tequila... whatever. I just try and stay away from processed foods as much as possible. I haven't tried the muscle testing thing and I too think it's a little weird. You can't argue with the guys accomplishments. I will take what he says about training, and pretty much ignore the rest of his ideas about muscle testing, big clown shoes, and eating according to your blood type. I don't buy his business about alkaline vs. acid in the body either. Your body takes care of that itself just fine. I'm going to get one of Maffetone's books now and shelve this one for reference. I do like the things he says about tuning into your perceptions around you when running as I've experienced that to be valid, though I think the way he describes it is weird.
IP: Logged |
jamjat
Cool Runner |
posted Jul-30-2007 01:56 PM
If there were two practically idental posts from me I apologize - I got server errors after the first one and did another one, but now I see my first one made it on, so sorry about that everyone - not trying to blab on and on...Things seem to be running really slowly today.
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