posted Jul-22-2007 01:12 PM               

quote:

---

Originally posted by slowgino:

One other piece of advice I got (from Pikes Peak):
"Don’t catch yourself walking downhill."

---

Damned if that ain't one of the best quotes around.
I like to ride my bike on some very hilly terrain around here
where many others ride, as it's the course from the Columbia
Triathlon, a very popular one. I see so many people fighting
like crazy up the hill then just coasting down, catching their
breaths at heart rates of 180, 190, 200, whatever, and
never recovering through the rest of their rides. I'll slow
down to about 8-12 mph going up the hills, with my heart
rate in check and they may be hitting 10-14 mph at the
point of ultimate exhaustion. Then they coast down at
18-20 mph, while I'm at 35-40, unstressed, ready for the
next hill. Same thing can be said for running. If you learn
nothing else from low HR training, it should be to slow down
going up and speed up going down. It's hard for some people
to understand that that's how you run efficiently (i.e., not
by keeping even pace on a hilly course).

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posted Jul-22-2007 01:15 PM               

quote:

---

Originally posted by Gregolowe:
Give me a year. Or two.

---

If you have the patience to wait for some extreme results
over a 1-2 year time frame, then you will be successful
and you will probably beat me. As Jimmy said, you may have
to break me down with some coke and olive slices first.
Everything I've done over the last 2 years or so has been
the result of a lot of patience and a lot of feedback.

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posted Jul-22-2007 01:56 PM            

There's no doubt that I am getting slower and slower since beginning MAF training 11 weeks ago. Just about every new run I do is slower than a previous run (or runs) at the same distance, same HR, same weather conditions, etc. It has basically been a slight steady decline since I started.

I am not eating 3 hours before a run and am always staying under MAF (a few VERY brief hill spikes above MAF only). My AHR for a run is usually 5-10 beats/minute below MAF, unless I am doing a MAF test or it is unusually hot/humid. I have only run long downhills a few times, due to ITBS that flared up when going downhill. I have done a few 50m strides here and there, and I pick it up on my shorter regular downhills.

Other than maybe needing more downhill, I am not sure what I am doing wrong. I certainly did not expect great improvement in a short time. But I figured I'd stay level- I did not anticipate getting steadily slower with the same effort. My wife, on the other hand, has improved from an 11:00 MAF pace to a 9:15 in the same 11 weeks (the big differences are that she already had a decent aerobic base and she runs 10-20% of her miles as speedwork).

On the good side, I have no injuries now and my mileage has increased 40% for the 11 MAF weeks versus the 11 weeks before starting MAF. I have gotten used to the slower running and it feels more normal now.

Does anyone have any suggestions? If I am going to eventually bottom out and then start improving, fine. But if my situation is very abnormal, I think I need to switch something up in the near term to halt the decline.

[This message has been edited by Ace8 (edited Jul-22-2007).]

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posted Jul-22-2007 03:00 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by jjwaverly42:

Jesse is not a machine. He is a carbon-based, sentient life-form who has learned to hug not only his wife, kids, and own supply of lipids, but has also learned the karmic value of sharing wisdom and life experience with other carbon-based, sentient life-forms. He's Aerobobuddha, Ultravishnu, and The Fatchat King!

But never worship. If you see Jesse on the road or the trail, give him a Coke and some olive slices, then defeat him.

--Jimmy

MAF log
profeelia

---

ROFL. Good stuff.

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posted Jul-22-2007 03:15 PM               

quote:

---

Originally posted by Ace8:
Getting slower...

There's no doubt that I am getting slower and slower since beginning MAF training 11 weeks ago. Just about every new run I do is slower than a previous run (or runs) at the same distance, same HR, same weather conditions, etc. It has basically been a slight steady decline since I started.

I am not eating 3 hours before a run and am always staying under MAF (a few VERY brief hill spikes above MAF only). My AHR for a run is usually 5-10 beats/minute below MAF, unless I am doing a MAF test or it is unusually hot/humid. I have only run long downhills a few times, due to ITBS that flared up when going downhill. I have done a few 50m strides here and there, and I pick it up on my shorter regular downhills.

Other than maybe needing more downhill, I am not sure what I am doing wrong. I certainly did not expect great improvement in a short time. But I figured I'd stay level- I did not anticipate getting steadily slower with the same effort. My wife, on the other hand, has improved from an 11:00 MAF pace to a 9:15 in the same 11 weeks (the big differences are that she already had a decent aerobic base and she runs 10-20% of her miles as speedwork).

On the good side, I have no injuries now and my mileage has increased 40% for the 11 MAF weeks versus the 11 weeks before starting MAF. I have gotten used to the slower running and it feels more normal now.

Does anyone have any suggestions? If I am going to eventually bottom out and then start improving, fine. But if my situation is very abnormal, I think I need to switch something up in the near term to halt the decline.

[This message has been edited by Ace8 (edited Jul-22-2007).]

---

Well, it sounds like you have a bit of a catch-22. While continuously
climbing temperatures are an explanation for declining performance,
it sounds as if whenever you really try to get the needed downhill
work in, your ITBS comes back. That will really be a hindrance -
not just to MAF running, but to running in general. I'd be surprised
if speedwork didn't irritate it as well. If you really want to give this
a go, then you may want to see what happens for a couple of
weeks on the treadmill. If you can run about 5 runs or more on
the treadmill over the next two weeks and your performance
declines, then there really is something wrong and we should
take a closer look. Do you have that option?

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posted Jul-22-2007 03:39 PM               

quote:

---

Originally posted by leitnerj:
Well, it sounds like you have a bit of a catch-22. While continuously
climbing temperatures are an explanation for declining performance,
it sounds as if whenever you really try to get the needed downhill
work in, your ITBS comes back. That will really be a hindrance -
not just to MAF running, but to running in general. I'd be surprised
if speedwork didn't irritate it as well. If you really want to give this
a go, then you may want to see what happens for a couple of
weeks on the treadmill. If you can run about 5 runs or more on
the treadmill over the next two weeks and your performance
declines, then there really is something wrong and we should
take a closer look. Do you have that option?

---

One additional question - do you have any logs that I
can look at, for example, GPS/heart rate downloads
to motionbased? Also, do you have a smattering of
short and long distance race times that you can send
to provide some indication of how developed aerobically
you were when you started? How many miles per
week are you running and how are they distributed?
Do you do any cross-training, such as cycling, swimming,
spin class, etc?

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posted Jul-22-2007 03:47 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by leitnerj:
Well, it sounds like you have a bit of a catch-22. While continuously
climbing temperatures are an explanation for declining performance,
it sounds as if whenever you really try to get the needed downhill
work in, your ITBS comes back. That will really be a hindrance -
not just to MAF running, but to running in general. I'd be surprised
if speedwork didn't irritate it as well. If you really want to give this
a go, then you may want to see what happens for a couple of
weeks on the treadmill. If you can run about 5 runs or more on
the treadmill over the next two weeks and your performance
declines, then there really is something wrong and we should
take a closer look. Do you have that option?

---

To be more clear, my ITBS seems to be gone. I have sucessfully run some downhill the past few weeks without symptoms coming back. I just have not done as much downhill over the past 11 weeks as a whole as I would have liked.

Also, I am trying to compare many runs of the same distance, route, weather, etc and that's why I think I have a steady decline. I don't think its just the weather slowing me down. The other thing I am seeing is that I am slowing down more in the later miles of my runs than I did a few months ago, like my endurance is getting worse.

My guess is that I was in decent 10k shape (anaerobicaly, at least) right before starting MAF-ing, and that I have lost some running economy due to deterioration of my fast twitch and "middle twitch" muscles. Or, maybe my body is just not catching up with my mileage increase and I am a bit fatigued.

My treadmill broke...I ordered a part...long story short, it still does not work. However, we are within a week away from joining a YMCA, so I should be have access to a treadmill in the near future.

What type of runs should I do on the treadmill over 2 weeks time? Should I do 5 MAF tests? My typical runs are in the 5-6.5 mile range and I've only made it up to 9-10 miles for a long run.

IP: Logged

posted Jul-22-2007 04:01 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by leitnerj:
One additional question - do you have any logs that I
can look at, for example, GPS/heart rate downloads
to motionbased? Also, do you have a smattering of
short and long distance race times that you can send
to provide some indication of how developed aerobically
you were when you started? How many miles per
week are you running and how are they distributed?
Do you do any cross-training, such as cycling, swimming,
spin class, etc?

---

I have a spreadsheet I can email to you, if you don't mind if I send to the address in your profile. I do not have a GPS with HR, so my log may not be highly sophisticated. I basically have pace, distance, HR and cross training info from mid-'06 through today.

IP: Logged

posted Jul-22-2007 04:03 PM               

quote:

---

Originally posted by Ace8:
To be more clear, my ITBS seems to be gone. I have sucessfully run some downhill the past few weeks without symptoms coming back. I just have not done as much downhill over the past 11 weeks as a whole as I would have liked.

Also, I am trying to compare many runs of the same distance, route, weather, etc and that's why I think I have a steady decline. I don't think its just the weather slowing me down. The other thing I am seeing is that I am slowing down more in the later miles of my runs than I did a few months ago, like my endurance is getting worse.

My guess is that I was in decent 10k shape (anaerobicaly, at least) right before starting MAF-ing, and that I have lost some running economy due to deterioration of my fast twitch and "middle twitch" muscles. Or, maybe my body is just not catching up with my mileage increase and I am a bit fatigued.

My treadmill broke...I ordered a part...long story short, it still does not work. However, we are within a week away from joining a YMCA, so I should be have access to a treadmill in the near future.

What type of runs should I do on the treadmill over 2 weeks time? Should I do 5 MAF tests? My typical runs are in the 5-6.5 mile range and I've only made it up to 9-10 miles for a long run.

---

I don't believe your running economy has much to do with
fast twitch or slow-twitch muscles. It's simply a matter that
you lose your stride and leg turnover if you're never running
in a smooth rhythm (which could be the case for an unnatural
slowdown, as frequently happens when trying this).

Also, I'd be happy to look at your range of splits with average
heart rate and/or heart rate profile (preferable, so I can see
what's going on in peaks and valleys) for each split, including
the temperature, humidity, and some gauge of the elevation
variation of the courses (the nice thing about the TM is that
it removes all of those factors, so you can get right to the
meat). This should tell something of a story. It should also
include whether or not you are drinking and how much.

Now, for treadmill:
I would say you should do one-hour runs on the treadmill, of
varying sorts (all at zero incline). In one case, find the pace for
MAF-10 and hold that pace through the entire run, recording
the avg HR for each split (or just taking note of the HR at the
end of each split if it's not jumping around).

For the second case, warm up for half a mile with a brisk
walk, then ease it up to your MAF heart rate, and adjust
the pace downward as needed to stay at MAF. Record
the split times and average heart rate per split.

Last case same as the second, but take a mile to warm up
with a walk, then start the one hour run.

Lastly, if you can provide your race times for various distances
before you started (including what has driven you to wanting
to try this), then I can get an idea of what your aerobic
conditioning was to start.

By the way, while there have been varying degrees of success
with this, I'd say you are the third person that has posted
almost exactly what you have. I was not able to get much
real data from the other two, just anecdotal stuff (in one
case splits and heart rate without any other information),
so perhaps we can get to the bottom of something with yours.
Also, you may have mentioned before, but how old are you/

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[This message has been edited by leitnerj (edited Jul-22-2007).]

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posted Jul-22-2007 04:04 PM               

quote:

---

Originally posted by Ace8:
I have a spreadsheet I can email to you, if you don't mind if I send to the address in your profile. I do not have a GPS with HR, so my log may not be highly sophisticated. I basically have pace, distance, HR and cross training info from mid-'06 through today.

---

Sure, why don't you email it to me, and we'll see if I can make
anything of it.

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posted Jul-22-2007 06:25 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by Ace8:
Getting slower...

There's no doubt that I am getting slower and slower since beginning MAF training 11 weeks ago. Just about every new run I do is slower than a previous run (or runs) at the same distance, same HR, same weather conditions, etc. It has basically been a slight steady decline since I started.

I am not eating 3 hours before a run and am always staying under MAF (a few VERY brief hill spikes above MAF only). My AHR for a run is usually 5-10 beats/minute below MAF, unless I am doing a MAF test or it is unusually hot/humid. I have only run long downhills a few times, due to ITBS that flared up when going downhill. I have done a few 50m strides here and there, and I pick it up on my shorter regular downhills.

Other than maybe needing more downhill, I am not sure what I am doing wrong. I certainly did not expect great improvement in a short time. But I figured I'd stay level- I did not anticipate getting steadily slower with the same effort. My wife, on the other hand, has improved from an 11:00 MAF pace to a 9:15 in the same 11 weeks (the big differences are that she already had a decent aerobic base and she runs 10-20% of her miles as speedwork).

On the good side, I have no injuries now and my mileage has increased 40% for the 11 MAF weeks versus the 11 weeks before starting MAF. I have gotten used to the slower running and it feels more normal now.

Does anyone have any suggestions? If I am going to eventually bottom out and then start improving, fine. But if my situation is very abnormal, I think I need to switch something up in the near term to halt the decline.

[This message has been edited by Ace8 (edited Jul-22-2007).]

---

I usually get slower and slower for up to 6 weeks, then it begins to reverse. Why? I don't know. Remember that you are feeling better, and that's a good thing.

To put things more in perspective: Mark Allen, the Ironman champ who used this method to rebuild his system took months to improve by just 1 minute, and a year to surpass two minutes. He was an elite athlete.

Even though it seems that not much is happening, a lot is happening. Give it time, enjoy you're ever-increasing healthy state, and when it comes time to race, you will know if it was worth your time.

Downnhill running is fine, and makes MAF more fun, but the lack of it is not your problem. It's just that your aerobic system and ability to use fat as oxygen was in a sorry state.

As mine is at the moment.

What is your MAF? How did you calculate it?
What is your weekly mileage?
How do you do your runs?
for example, some keep that HR near the MAF for the whole run, sone build up to it.

Are you warming up for at least 15-30 minutes?
Cooling down at least 15-30 minutes?

How's the stress in your life?

In Training For Endurance, Maffetone writes about a runner who was getting slower and slower throughout the summer. H e realized that the summer heat was just too stressful on her body-type, and she wasn'e developing aerobically. He cut her mileage down, and she began to improve.

Keep going!

--Jimmy

@@@@
MAF log

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posted Jul-22-2007 08:58 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by jjwaverly42:

What is your MAF? How did you calculate it?
What is your weekly mileage?
How do you do your runs?
for example, some keep that HR near the MAF for the whole run, sone build up to it.

Are you warming up for at least 15-30 minutes?
Cooling down at least 15-30 minutes?

How's the stress in your life?

In Training For Endurance, Maffetone writes about a runner who was getting slower and slower throughout the summer. H e realized that the summer heat was just too stressful on her body-type, and she wasn'e developing aerobically. He cut her mileage down, and she began to improve.

---

Thanks for the reply. My concern is not necessarily that I am not improving, but rather that I seem to be declining from where I started, not to mention week-to-week, month-to-month.

I am using 146 as my MAF (180-34 years old). I have had many minor injuries, so I should probably be at 141. However, my base MAF test was at 146 so I kept using this, especially after my ITBS felt worse the slower I ran. Anyway, most of my runs average 141 or below.

I am at about 20 miles per week running and another 2.5 hours/week of below MAF elliptical training. My long run is up to 9 miles at this point (today was 9 miles and no pain anywhere!). I have done about 175 MAF miles and another 130 MAF elliptical "miles" so far in 11 weeks.

I mix up my runs. I have been warming up for 15 and cooling down for 15 since I read "Training for Endurance" a month ago. I usually start out slow. Sometimes I keep the same pace and let my HR increase gradually. Other times, I will speed up to close to MAF after my warmup.

The stress in my life is pretty bad- so yeah that's been in the back of my mind since reading "Training for Endurance". I'd say the stress may be 8/10, with a busy schedule at about a 9.5/10 the past few months. I eat well, but I could probably use more sleep.

I thought about the example in Maffetone's book as well about the summer heat, but I am not doing nearly as much as that woman (if I remember correctly, she was doing 18 hr/week of training time). I really need to get some training done on the treadmill. I do try to run in the early AM or after sundown.

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posted Jul-22-2007 10:01 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by Ace8:
Thanks for the reply. My concern is not necessarily that I am not improving, but rather that I seem to be declining from where I started, not to mention week-to-week, month-to-month.

I am using 146 as my MAF (180-34 years old). I have had many minor injuries, so I should probably be at 141. However, my base MAF test was at 146 so I kept using this, especially after my ITBS felt worse the slower I ran. Anyway, most of my runs average 141 or below.

I am at about 20 miles per week running and another 2.5 hours/week of below MAF elliptical training. My long run is up to 9 miles at this point (today was 9 miles and no pain anywhere!). I have done about 175 MAF miles and another 130 MAF elliptical "miles" so far in 11 weeks.

I mix up my runs. I have been warming up for 15 and cooling down for 15 since I read "Training for Endurance" a month ago. I usually start out slow. Sometimes I keep the same pace and let my HR increase gradually. Other times, I will speed up to close to MAF after my warmup.

The stress in my life is pretty bad- so yeah that's been in the back of my mind since reading "Training for Endurance". I'd say the stress may be 8/10, with a busy schedule at about a 9.5/10 the past few months. I eat well, but I could probably use more sleep.

I thought about the example in Maffetone's book as well about the summer heat, but I am not doing nearly as much as that woman (if I remember correctly, she was doing 18 hr/week of training time). I really need to get some training done on the treadmill. I do try to run in the early AM or after sundown.

---

When I began this round of training, I found the heat really stressful, and I wasn't running high mileage. My times got worse rather quickly. I then began to work on staying cool at night with A.C. and staying hydrated. That seemed to help. Seems it's not just the run you need to stay cool for. One can progressively get dehydrated without even running.

Your mileage is pretty low right now, and it will take some time to see improvement. Hang on, and keep going. When the fall comes, you will find that you are doing a little better.

What are your goals? Is racing in your future?

--Jimmy

MAF log

profeelia

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posted Jul-22-2007 10:32 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by jjwaverly42:

What are your goals? Is racing in your future?

--Jimmy

---

My first goal is to get rid of the chronic minor injuries while training. My next goal is to run more than an 8-mile long run without getting injured (that seemed to be my breaking point in the past) and then steadily increasing mileage. After that, I'd like to do a half marathon and eventually a marathon. My longest race to date is only a 10k.

If it works out, I'd like to do a few short 5k races and hopefully at least at half marathon this autumn. My plan was to MAF 100% for another 4-5 weeks (15-16 weeks total).

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posted Jul-22-2007 10:40 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by jjwaverly42:
I usually get slower and slower for up to 6 weeks, then it begins to reverse. Why? I don't know. Remember that you are feeling better, and that's a good thing.

---

This has been my experience as well - more or less. I find that whenever I shift my training - it takes about 6 weeks to adapt. The first 6 weeks are tough because it can seem like there's no progress; and seems to be reversing sometimes. But then, unless I get injured or something, the body adapts and changes are coming quickly for a while afterwards.

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posted Jul-22-2007 10:45 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by Gregolowe:
What if you had to do a fat ass run? What do you think you'd take? What about a few back to back days of running, multi-day running? I ask because I'm new, and this is where I see myself going, not necessarily dependent upon aid stations but multi-day adventure running in the wilderness. I want to run organized races but this is where my true desires lie.

---

I saw Jesse's reply... which referred to hot weather. Not sure where you live; but the FA run I last did was in the dead of winter - and the temps hit 6 degrees for the high. Electrolytes were not an issue at all; keeping the fluids from freezing was! My biggest challenge was finding stuff with a high freezing point and keeping it insulated. If its really cold; you really don't lose a lot of electrolytes unless you're overdressed. I found that for long, unsupported runs, I can actually do fine on gatorade, and power gels, and water - but I'm only a sample of one - and haven't gone for more than a little over 6 hours.

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posted Jul-22-2007 11:08 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by Ace8:
My first goal is to get rid of the chronic minor injuries while training. My next goal is to run more than an 8-mile long run without getting injured (that seemed to be my breaking point in the past) and then steadily increasing mileage. After that, I'd like to do a half marathon and eventually a marathon. My longest race to date is only a 10k.

If it works out, I'd like to do a few short 5k races and hopefully at least at half marathon this autumn. My plan was to MAF 100% for another 4-5 weeks (15-16 weeks total).

---

The question always is "what are you willing to do to get what you want?"
How much does not being injured and being able to do those races in the future mean to you?
What if meant doing MAF training for six months? a year? For two?
Whatever time it takes for you to plateau your aerobic development?
I don't expect answers to these questions. That's your business.

It's very easy to get impatient with this training, and many cannot take the "dog days" and go back to what they were doing before. Not realizing that if they would have put more than 15-16 weeks, and gone through with Maffetone's suggestions, they would have been training as fast as they used to. With a few big differences. No burnout, and using major amounts of fat as fuel. Zooooom!

Keep going! Create that healthy state!

--Jimmy

MAF log

profeelia

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posted Jul-23-2007 05:22 AM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by jjwaverly42:

The question always is "what are you willing to do to get what you want?"
How much does not being injured and being able to do those races in the future mean to you?
What if meant doing MAF training for six months? a year? For two?
Whatever time it takes for you to plateau your aerobic development?
I don't expect answers to these questions. That's your business.

It's very easy to get impatient with this training, and many cannot take the "dog days" and go back to what they were doing before. Not realizing that if they would have put more than 15-16 weeks, and gone through with Maffetone's suggestions, they would have been training as fast as they used to. With a few big differences. No burnout, and using major amounts of fat as fuel. Zooooom!

Keep going! Create that healthy state!

--Jimmy

MAF log

profeelia

---

I think I will be patient enough to stick with MAF and not worry too much about races. My issue is really doing what I have been doing for another 11 weeks to find out I was doing something wrong and wasted time. If I need to change something, I want to do it sooner rather than later. Anyway, I will do the treadmill tests Jesse suggested, try to mix in more hills and keep slowly increasing my mileage.

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posted Jul-23-2007 08:33 AM            

I took a few miles to warm up to a 10:00-10:10 pace and was able to stay under MAF through 14M. I picked up the pace a bit and allowed my HR to tick a few beats above MAF. Feeling good, I continued to pick up the pace and ran the final three miles at 9:27, 8:55, and 8:17. Average pace for the 20M was 9:58. Average HR was 132 (MAF=133).

As always, I took Sunday off and as I prepare for today's short run I do feel a little fatigued. Overall, however, I can't believe how strong I feel. Approximately 3 months of LHR training has allowed me to build up to 6 days running/week and last week's total of 53 miles was another PR. In the past, long runs of 20M were grinds. Now, I finish feeling strong and, more importantly, no injuries nipping at my heels.

I still worry about translating loads of slow miles to a fast marathon and will begin to ever so gradually mix in some faster paced running as my target marathon nears (Oct. 28th).

While I do expect a marathon PR in October (3:49) and do dream of BQing (3:30), I am enjoying my running so much right now. In the past injuries kept me from even attempting goals. I would encourage anyone with similar experiences to give LHR training a try. Running this many miles and feeling this well is new to me ... and I LIKE IT!

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posted Jul-23-2007 10:50 AM               

quote:

---

Originally posted by dfcameron:
This has been my experience as well - more or less. I find that whenever I shift my training - it takes about 6 weeks to adapt. The first 6 weeks are tough because it can seem like there's no progress; and seems to be reversing sometimes. But then, unless I get injured or something, the body adapts and changes are coming quickly for a while afterwards.

---

I've always looked at total mileage. I found that I experienced benefits at @ 250-300 miles. That's 50 mpw for 6 weeks. For 25 mpw, I'd just expect to wait 12 weeks. For 20 mpw, errrr, whatever the math is. If you're increasing your mileage, then expect that to have an effect on performance. If you're running at 75 degrees but it's in a terrarium, expect that to have an effect on performance (humidity sucks). Be patient. If you get to 300 miles and nothing's happened, then worry.

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posted Jul-23-2007 10:56 AM               

But never worship. If you see Jesse on the road or the trail, give him a Coke and some olive slices, then defeat him.

--Jimmy

Who hugs their lipids? Maybe the triglycerides -- but the fatty acids with their ugly aliphatic tails? Only a mother could love them.

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posted Jul-23-2007 12:17 PM               

quote:

---

Originally posted by leitnerj:
If you have the patience to wait for some extreme results
over a 1-2 year time frame, then you will be successful
and you will probably beat me. As Jimmy said, you may have
to break me down with some coke and olive slices first.
Everything I've done over the last 2 years or so has been
the result of a lot of patience and a lot of feedback.

---

Dude, you don't have to tell me you're patient. Watching you over the last year or so has been humbling. I am doing a 50K on Sept 8th (which is really my last training run before my taper for VT 50 on Sept. 30th) which I will run at MAF of 142. My first non MAF run will be the VT 50. If I see results, I WILL keep with the training as long as I see improvements. Then, I'm going to throw hills and plyometrics in for explosiveness. As to whether I beat you or not, it doesn't even matter. I feel so great now after my runs that I would just want to shake your hand. I only run for enjoyment now. IF I ever get up to the top 15% in finishers, then I may try and be competetive. Right now I'm competing against myself. It is amazing how great I feel after training at MAF levels. I feel energized and vibrant. My aches and pains are diminishing quickly and I am really having a blast. The slowed pace is humbling, but, I have faith I'll get faster. I believe I may actually be able to run for many years now whereas before that was in question as I was always nursing some kind of injury. Thank you, thank you.

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posted Jul-23-2007 12:19 PM               

quote:

---

Originally posted by leitnerj:
If you have the patience to wait for some extreme results
over a 1-2 year time frame, then you will be successful
and you will probably beat me. As Jimmy said, you may have
to break me down with some coke and olive slices first.
Everything I've done over the last 2 years or so has been
the result of a lot of patience and a lot of feedback.

---

Dude, you don't have to tell me you're patient. Watching you over the last year or so has been humbling. I am doing a 50K on Sept 8th (which is really my last training run before my taper for VT 50 on Sept. 30th) which I will run at MAF of 142. My first non MAF run will be the VT 50. If I see results, I WILL keep with the training as long as I see improvements. Then, I'm going to throw hills and plyometrics in for explosiveness. As to whether I beat you or not, it doesn't even matter. I feel so great now after my runs that I would just want to shake your hand. I only run for enjoyment now. IF I ever get up to the top 15% in finishers, then I may try and be competetive. Right now I'm competing against myself. It is amazing how great I feel after training at MAF levels. I feel energized and vibrant. My aches and pains are diminishing quickly and I am really having a blast. The slowed pace is humbling, but, I have faith I'll get faster. I believe I may actually be able to run for many years now whereas before that was in question as I was always nursing some kind of injury. Thank you, thank you.

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posted Jul-23-2007 12:43 PM               

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posted Jul-23-2007 03:14 PM               

Truth is I'm probably posting this because I'm proud of the time, but it also could encourage some of the doubters. I'm a relatively new distance runner (less then 2 years) so the increase in weekly mileage has to play a big part in improvement. However, the weekly mileage improvements would never have taken place at previous training paces.

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