posted Jul-20-2007 01:38 PM               

quote:

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Originally posted by dfcameron:
Don't do it. Stick to MAF. There's time later to get your legs adjusted to marathon race pace. If you really feel you need to, you can always do 100 meter strides at that pace - won't hurt your aerobic buildup.

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Strides can help, but I believe it's better to keep them to 50-60m. You start generating lactate after about 7-10 seconds of fast running, so 100m is a bit long for what you're trying to accomplish.

Unless of course you can run your 100m strides in under 10 seconds, in which case you don't need any advice from me :o)

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posted Jul-20-2007 09:10 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by catwoman73:
Another question for all of you experienced folks out there- can I do yoga during my basebuilding period? There is a small strength component to yoga, though I do yoga mostly to correct all kinds of misalignment problems I have from years of doing gymnastics. My HR never goes above MAF during a session.
Thanks everyone!
Pam

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Yes. Yoga is neither aerobic or anaerobic. Yoga is just bic.
I do it, if I didn't, my running would suffer, and my quality of life. Yoga helps to relieve stress, which will only aid your development.

So chill, breathe, and give me a downward facing dog followed by tree pose.

Let's go...

--Jimmy

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posted Jul-21-2007 09:35 AM            

quote:

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Originally posted by Hugoriffic:
[B]On June 27th of this year I had minor surgery done on my left ear (stapendectomy). As of this morning I was cleared to begin running again. So I did.
My doctor said to take it easy for awhile so I decided to give low heart rate training a try. As per Dr. Maffetone's 180 Formula I subtracted my age + 10 to get my maximum aerobic heart rate. Therefore: 180 - (37 + 10) = 133.
All went well this morning. But now I have some questions in regards to how to progress. So, here are my questions:

1) How long should I, or do I need too, stay on the modified heart rate?
2) When I am done with the modified heart rate do I move up 5 or 10 beats per minute? If it helps I had this same operation done in October of last year and these two instances are the only breaks I've had in running over the last 2 years (6 weeks the previous operation due to complications and 3 weeks this time around).
a) If I move up only 5 beats per minute then for how long? And then when I am done do I move up the final 10 beats to begin training there??
b) If I move up 10 beats per minute, to my regular maximum aerobic heart rate, then is this the beginning of my training??

My concern is moving too quickly up to my maximum aerobic heart rate. If that is even an issue.

Thank you in advance for any info you can give to me in regards to these questions. And feel free to ask for any additional info if it is needed.

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Also, I notice that my knees are sore at the end of the run. Not painful just sore. Is this unusual??

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posted Jul-21-2007 01:10 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by Hugoriffic:
Wanted to bump this up to see if I could get a response in regards to the length of time I should be running the modified max aerobic HR.
I guess my thoughts are, since my base needs work anyway, I was going to stick to the 133 HR for 12 weeks, move up to 138 for 12 weeks, and then 143 for 12 weeks more. This will take me to Marc h 23rd of 2008. Is this necessary??

Also, I notice that my knees are sore at the end of the run. Not painful just sore. Is this unusual??

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The answer is individual and depends on your goals I think. What do you hope to do with the base your building.

I would give MAF-10 a try until you aren't happy with the rate of progress with the MAF test (i.e., you plateau) or just get bored with it. Then consider something else such as moving up in HR, doing some speedwork, racing, whatever. In the next round of base building, you can move to 180-age.

Some of us do summer and winter base building between spring and fall marathon training. Some, like Jesse, do all easy training runs year round but focus on ultramarathons where endurance is much more important than speed. What you do between now and March depends on what you enjoy.

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posted Jul-21-2007 01:45 PM            

Maffetone's book and Jesse's FAQ have a table for predicting 5K performance from MAF pace. Doing a little interpolating, this predicts a ~21:15 5K. I ran 20:32 in early May on a day when the weather was worse (73 deg/dew pt 58 in May versus 68 deg/dew pt 49 this morning) and I'm pretty sure I'm in at least that shape now (ran 20:38 on a cross country course last week, but of course it wasn't certified).

How well does the 5K predictor work for you guys? I'll have some better data in a couple of weeks when I do a flat 5K on a certified course. (I'd love to break 20 minutes.)

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posted Jul-21-2007 03:35 PM               

quote:

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Originally posted by dfcameron:
OK... for whomever is running a 50, a 100, a whatever - the entire run will not only be aerobic - but really needs to be done below MAF the entire way (except maybe the last half mile).

The best way to train - esp. with 11 weeks - is to build a solid aerobic base through slow efforts. Even if its a fair amount of walking. Heck, I've run 3 50-milers. I've trained a fair amount of miles; and have walked about 2 hours worth of each of them.

The worst thing to do, IMO, would be to run too fast between now and then - you really need to build, maximize your aerobic base.

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Just got back from a 5 day vacation with no internet access!
Dave, that's certainly a good way to be conservative for a first 50
or 100, and a nice way to get through the whole thing with
a happy finish, that's for
sure. However, I should say that for 50 mile races, I'll run a good
15 beats or so above MAF, higher later if I feel up to it, as long
as I'm eating well. At Umstead, my overall average heart rate
was below MAF, but I did run about 1/2 or so around 10-15 beats
above, especially when the temperature was high. It does take
a good bit of experimentation to figure out how high you can
push the heart rate on the long races, without a doubt, and if you
don't play that game right, you can have very painful experience
in your first!

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posted Jul-21-2007 03:40 PM               

quote:

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Originally posted by DanMoriarity:
Now THAT is low heart rate training.

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Fred is the ultimate MAFfer!

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posted Jul-21-2007 06:51 PM               

quote:

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Originally posted by Gregolowe:
thanks for all the replies. Let me give a little more info. Last Saturday I did 18 miles. I have several 3, 4,5 and one six hour run planned before my taper. The six hour is a 50K race, 30 miles. My normal running schedule is to run 15 minutes, then walk three. I can eat during the run so I can refuel. This is one question I have about this training. From what I can tell, just burning fat for energy isn't the only draw. In an ultra, I can eat all I want so I can replenish glycogen and keep my sugar levels up, so I don't have a problem burning sugar as fuel. What I see as the true advantage to low heart rate training is it reduces lactic acid production from anaerobic energy production and thus allows you to run longer more comfortably. Yet, I wonder if the run/walk strategy that ultra marathoners use does not accomplish the same thing. Many will run 5 minutes/walk 1. Or, more commen, they will walk up the hills and run the flats and downhills. I wonder if the walking doesn't allow the cells to get flushed out and replenished.
I'm not planning on haveing a miserable experience. My brohter in law is running the race with me and he is not training at all! HE will be miserable for sure. I enjoy my long runs immensely and I believe the walking and eating keeps me fresh. My main question is whether I will lose too many miles in my training between now and the race if I use Maff. Ex: This morning I was supposed to run 8 miles. By keeping my heart at MAF 142, I had to run an 11:30 pace and lost 1.2 miles off my run. Next Saturday I'm supposed to do a 4 hour run. That will probably shave 3-4 miles off my run if I do MAF. Over a given week, that could reduce my miles significantly and that's what I'm worried about. The run walk strategy allows me to go faster and keep fresh. I want to build my aerobic base. I'm just wondering if I do it now, before my race, whether it would hurt my training. I'm just sharing my thoughts though it may sound like I'm argueing against MAF. I'm not. I'm just sharing my thinking.

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Woohoo!.... Jesse's back.. Jesse, what do you think? Is 11 weeks enough to benefit from MAF? Since I have to slow down, will I lose too many miles in my training? I've got to say I fell much better running with a lower heart rate. Today I ran 2:45 at a HR of 142 or less. Felt really good. However, I probably lost 3 miles or so off of my projected distance.

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posted Jul-21-2007 06:59 PM               

quote:

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Originally posted by Gregolowe:
Woohoo!.... Jesse's back.. Jesse, what do you think? Is 11 weeks enough to benefit from MAF? Since I have to slow down, will I lose too many miles in my training? I've got to say I fell much better running with a lower heart rate. Today I ran 2:45 at a HR of 142 or less. Felt really good. However, I probably lost 3 miles or so off of my projected distance.

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Well, it's definitely an individual thing, and hindsight would be
great at this point, if it were to exist! I guess also I do wonder
whether it's time constraints that shorten your mileage or
are you adhering to a strict amount of time as opposed to distance,
henceforth, the shorter distances? In either case, running a few miles
shorter is not something I would worry terribly much about, but
you may want to get a couple of runs of 3-3:30 hours in if you're
going much more slowly, as long as it's not giving you tremendous
fatigue. If you truly need aerobic development, then I think you're
better off doing 11 weeks of MAF then a lot of much harder stuff.

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posted Jul-21-2007 08:06 PM               

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posted Jul-21-2007 08:41 PM               

quote:

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Originally posted by Gregolowe:
I believe I truly need it as I can't keep it below 142 without having to walk. I have several 4, 5 and on 6 hour run scheduled before the 50. One poster earlier suggested viewing the 50 as a short term goal in my building to a 100 next year, which I like. Thanks for your input. I've been waiting for it and I figured there was some reason you're weren't addressing my question. I apprecitate your dedication and input. I will keep up with the MAF as I just felt so much better today not redlining it the whole time. What do you think about the run/walk strategy employed by ultra enthusiasts? Does it keep glycogen stores replenished?

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Well, there are a lot of different run/walk approaches for ultras.
My general approach as far as that goes is, when it hurts, walk.
I use heart rate as a metric for when to walk in an ultra or
ultra-specific training run which usually means that once my
heart rate hits the limit on a steep incline, I switch to a walk.
I don't use a so-many-minutes run/so-many-minutes walk
strategy like most do, even in flat terrain. My goal is always
to run the entire race with the exception of aid stations and
extreme terrain. It doesn't always work out that way, but it's
a goal. In the Umstead 100 this year, I would say I ran 99.2
miles, if not more. There is one very steep hill in that race
that you hit 8 times (because there are 8 loops!) I was able
to wog it the first 5 times, but I walked it the last 3. Heart
rate is a pretty good metric to tell you when to walk, just
in case the signs from your body aren't good enough! Honestly,
I wouldn't worry a whole lot about glycogen storage in ultras,
other than (1) train yourself to use fat very efficiently as a
fuel source and (2) learn how to eat during a long event
(including what and how much you can). Hence, you should
take some of your ultra-specific long training runs and test
out different foods. I've eaten the following in ultras:
pretzels, potato chips, fritos, chicken noodle soup,
cheeseburgers, french fries (fresh from the fryer), bacon/egg/cheese
sandwiches, olives, m&ms, peanut butter and jelly sandwiches,
and much more. All of these have worked well for me. Some
people can't take much of anything, but you don't want to learn
this during a race. Sometimes taking in food just takes practice
and acclimation (i.e., might not work the first time, but will
later, perhaps in smaller quantities, cooler weather, earlier
in the run, etc.)

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posted Jul-21-2007 08:46 PM               

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posted Jul-21-2007 08:53 PM               

quote:

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Originally posted by Gregolowe:
Gold, pure gold Jesse. So far I've been using fig newtons. What do you like the best, sugary of fatty foods? What about fluid replacement drinks? I think you use Hammer products right? Low carb stuff; actually, low sugar if I remember right. So far I run till I'm hungry on my long runs which takes about 2 hours or so. I went out on an empty stomach today since I'm dong the MAF thing. I actually prefer to run on an empty stomach.

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It all depends on the scenario. I absolutely hate chicken soup, but
in an ultra, I can always count on getting it down and it's got good
sodium content. I drink whatever electrolyte drink is provided;
fortunately none have caused me problems. Nowadays I take in no
calories at all on any training runs because I know what works.
My favorite drink in ultras is good old Coke (or Pepsi!) If I were
to pick 2 or 3 things that I would be happy to carry me through ultras,
they would be olives, fritos, and PB&J, then Coke to drink. I don't
really think about carbs/no carbs during races, but I do think about
sodium intake, especially when hot.

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posted Jul-21-2007 09:06 PM               

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posted Jul-21-2007 09:20 PM               

quote:

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Originally posted by Gregolowe:
What if you had to do a fat ass run? What do you think you'd take? What about a few back to back days of running, multi-day running? I ask because I'm new, and this is where I see myself going, not necessarily dependent upon aid stations but multi-day adventure running in the wilderness. I want to run organized races but this is where my true desires lie.

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PB&J, fritos, potato chips, and pretty much any electrolyte
drink. If it were going to be very hot out and I was going for
more than 8 hours, my preference for electrolyte drink is
succeed ultra.

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posted Jul-21-2007 09:24 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by gregw:
The answer is individual and depends on your goals I think. What do you hope to do with the base your building.

I would give MAF-10 a try until you aren't happy with the rate of progress with the MAF test (i.e., you plateau) or just get bored with it. Then consider something else such as moving up in HR, doing some speedwork, racing, whatever. In the next round of base building, you can move to 180-age.

Some of us do summer and winter base building between spring and fall marathon training. Some, like Jesse, do all easy training runs year round but focus on ultramarathons where endurance is much more important than speed. What you do between now and March depends on what you enjoy.

---

I also did not think about hitting plateau's and that will more likely dictate how I move up the MAF scale. I'll use that as my guide. I would like to use the MAF-10 for awhile and then move up to MAF-5 before going 180-Age. Why? I'm not going to be in any races this year due to the operation and speed has never been an issue for me, but base has. So this is the perfect time to start working on it.

One more question: When I notice I am getting close to hitting a plateau can I test more often than every 4 weeks?? Or should I stick to the 4 weeks seeing as I'll have the time anyway?

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posted Jul-21-2007 09:35 PM            

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posted Jul-21-2007 09:43 PM               

quote:

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Originally posted by Hugoriffic:

One more question: When I notice I am getting close to hitting a plateau can I test more often than every 4 weeks?? Or should I stick to the 4 weeks seeing as I'll have the time anyway?

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Well, you can test every day if you desire, but it will be like
watching grass grow. But there's nothing wrong with seeing
where things are on a weekly basis.

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posted Jul-21-2007 09:45 PM               

quote:

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Originally posted by Hugoriffic:
Shoot, I forgot to address the knee soreness. Before MAF my knees never got sore but since MAF they have been. I don't think that there is any more pounding than before, maybe less even, so could the soreness be from using the muscles differently??
Just for clarification: My knees do not hurt and there is no pain before, during, or after the run. Just a slight soreness. And the soreness is gone in 12 hours or so, so that the next morning I am not mindful of the previous run's soreness. Does any of that make sense??

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Not unusual to see a range of new types of soreness for a couple
of weeks as it will be like a new form of cross-training. Shouldn't
stick with you for long however. I think I cover that in the FAQ
somewhere, but I'm too lazy to look right now.

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posted Jul-21-2007 09:49 PM               

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posted Jul-21-2007 11:14 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by leitnerj:
Well, you can test every day if you desire, but it will be like
watching grass grow. But there's nothing wrong with seeing
where things are on a weekly basis.

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posted Jul-21-2007 11:19 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by leitnerj:
Not unusual to see a range of new types of soreness for a couple
of weeks as it will be like a new form of cross-training. Shouldn't
stick with you for long however. I think I cover that in the FAQ
somewhere, but I'm too lazy to look right now.

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No, this is natural. The initial slow down will be effectively a new form of cross-training. After a couple of weeks your body will get used to it and shortly thereafter your pace will start to improve.

I did read this previous to asking my question. Although it was weeks ago. My bad. Thanks again.

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posted Jul-22-2007 01:11 AM            

quote:

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Originally posted by Gregolowe:
I believe I truly need it as I can't keep it below 142 without having to walk. I have several 4, 5 and on 6 hour run scheduled before the 50. One poster earlier suggested viewing the 50 as a short term goal in my building to a 100 next year, which I like...
<skip>
What do you think about the run/walk strategy employed by ultra enthusiasts? Does it keep glycogen stores replenished?

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Although I haven't done any ultras in a (long) while, I now often train with a run/walk controlled by the HRM. Advantages are:
It gives the leg muscles a rest by using them in a different way;
it lets the HR recover temporarily;
it is much easier to hydrate (drink) when walking;
it gives you practice for walking up hill in a hilly race;
it lets you train longer/go farther than you would if you ran the whole way.

Also, I have been told that letting the HR recover down periodically (especially if you're above MAF) is very good for developing the fat-burning metabolism.

On other matters:
One thing to avoid is too much sugar in the gut if you are eating stuff during the ultra. Sugar can retard emptying fluid from the stomach. I had a very bad experience with this, and was unable to drink anything for 3 hours in the middle of my first 50. Stomach full... too much sugar... barfed every time I tried to drink.

What you want for food is individual. I just used sport drinks (ERG, mostly.) 40 mile training runs, 50 mile races or 100K, whatever. My brother eats stuff, not a lot. I know he likes pretzels. He's done Western States a couple times, that sounds like something you would be interested in. He mentioned a presentation where they had a race walker come in and give the ultra runners a quick tutorial on how to walk efficiently and easily. A useful thing to know.

One other piece of advice I got (from Pikes Peak):
"Don’t catch yourself walking downhill."
(meaning - if you run all the uphills, you'll probably find yourself walking some downhills in the later stages of the race.)

Just some random thoughts, hope it was useful.

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posted Jul-22-2007 06:26 AM            

quote:

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Originally posted by Gregolowe:
Hey jesse......... You are a machine.

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Jesse is not a machine. He is a carbon-based, sentient life-form who has learned to hug not only his wife, kids, and own supply of lipids, but has also learned the karmic value of sharing wisdom and life experience with other carbon-based, sentient life-forms. He's Aerobobuddha, Ultravishnu, and The Fatchat King!

But never worship. If you see Jesse on the road or the trail, give him a Coke and some olive slices, then defeat him.

--Jimmy

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posted Jul-22-2007 07:12 AM               

quote:

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Originally posted by jjwaverly42:

Jesse is not a machine. He is a carbon-based, sentient life-form who has learned to hug not only his wife, kids, and own supply of lipids, but has also learned the karmic value of sharing wisdom and life experience with other carbon-based, sentient life-forms. He's Aerobobuddha, Ultravishnu, and The Fatchat King!

But never worship. If you see Jesse on the road or the trail, give him a Coke and some olive slices, then defeat him.

--Jimmy

MAF log
profeelia

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Give me a year. Or two.

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