| Author |
Topic: The Truth About Mileage |
Nobby
Cool Runner |
 posted May-21-2007 11:03 AM
   
quote:
Originally posted by Richard99:
Nobby,The exercise physiology community has long debated a "central" or a "peripheral" limitation in oxygen delivery to muscles. The theory that most runners are familiar with is that limited oxygen to the muscles is the root cause of fatigue. Well, some physiologists promote that the limitation is a "central limitation" - that the heart, lungs, and/or arteries aren't able to deliver sufficient oxygen to the working muscles. Other physiologists promote the belief that the limitation is "peripheral" - that the oxygen absorption & utilization capabilities of the cells is the limiting factor. Essentially what these physiologists have stated is that basically only well-trained runners are centrally limited - i.e. these runners can run fast enough to reach the limits of their circulatory system's ability to deliver oxygen to the muscles. And they are saying that less well-trained runners are limited by different factors than well-trained runners. That less trained runners are limited by other metabolic processes and not limited by the ability of the heart, lungs, & arteries to deliver oxygen to working muscles.
Thanks, Richard, for your clarification. So with your swiftness and accuracy of this last response; what are YOU saying; not all those "physiologists", but YOU? Seems to me, it means "the more you train, the more you become 'well-trained'".
IP: Logged |
fuzz
Cool Runner |
posted May-21-2007 11:15 AM
quote:
Originally posted by bigapplepie:
I'd also like to point out that the FIRST Marathon Training Program is aimed at first-time marathon runners.
In addition to the beginner program, they also offer FIRST to the Finish "for marathon runners looking to get faster." quote:
Originally posted by bigapplepie:
It comprises of 6 workouts per week including 1 interval workout, 1 threshold workout and one long run of up to 20 miles.The other 3 workouts can comprise of easy runs or cross-training. Compare that to a Pfitzinger plan and its not that different.
I tried "FIRST to the Finish" and found it similar to a conventional program in terms of the overall level of effort. My results were unimpressive, though; I did much better with the Pfitzinger 18/55 schedule.
[This message has been edited by fuzz (edited May-21-2007).]
IP: Logged |
bigapplepie
Cool Runner |
posted May-21-2007 11:30 AM
quote:
Originally posted by Nobby:
Bigapplepie:Thanks for posting the site. Very interesting... But to look at their marathon schedule with "only" one rest day, it really doesn't look anything new to me... People have been doing that for the last 3 decades. Or am I just being prejudiced (being an old timer)???
I don't think its particularly earth-shattering. I started the program by running 3 days and cross-training three days a week. Gradually I dropped the cross-training and added additional easy runs. With that fearless newbie vigor I substituted races for a lot of the tempo runs. I achieved my target for my first two marathons running negative splits on an average of 27 mpw. So for me it was effective. Now I'm attempting to take the next step (once I get over my non-running related hamstring injury) by adding mileage.
IP: Logged |
Richard99
Cool Runner |
posted May-21-2007 11:55 AM
quote:
Originally posted by Nobby:
Bigapplepie:Thanks for posting the site. Very interesting... But to look at their marathon schedule with "only" one rest day, it really doesn't look anything new to me... People have been doing that for the last 3 decades. Or am I just being prejudiced (being an old timer)???
Nobby, The program currently recommended by the FIRST team is what they call 3plus2. They define this as 3 running days per week only and 2 cross-training days. The 3 weekly runs consist of 1 interval workout, 1 tempo run, and 1 long run. They do not recommend any easy runs during the program, instead they have 2 cross training days. The actual training volume of the 3plus2 is not really less than other marathon training programs. The run volume is lower with only 3 days per week of running, but overall training volumes are similar due to the cross training workouts. ------------------
Richard
World's Fastest Slow Guy
www.powerrunning.com
IP: Logged |
bigapplepie
Cool Runner |
posted May-21-2007 12:10 PM
Ricard, the one I looked at was here.
Please can you post a link to the new one?
IP: Logged |
Richard99
Cool Runner |
posted May-21-2007 12:15 PM
quote:
Originally posted by Nobby:
Thanks, Richard, for your clarification. So with your swiftness and accuracy of this last response; what are YOU saying; not all those "physiologists", but YOU? Seems to me, it means "the more you train, the more you become 'well-trained'".
Nobby, My physiological theory to explain what is happening in the body during training and what limits performance is what I call a dynamic model of fatigue. In short, I propose that different things cause fatigue & limit performance at different times. At one point in training muscles may be limiting performance, at other times it could be insufficient mitochondria, and at other times it could be muscle acidity. Basically I propose that there is no 1 one thing that limits performance all the time. Different physiological things can limit performance at different times, depending on the training status and individual characteristics of the person. For example, a beginner runner may initially be limited by weak muscles. The beginners cardiovascular system may be sufficient but his/her muscles are too weak and out of shape to run very fast or far. With training, the beginner's muscles get stronger and more enduring. Now the beginner can run faster, longer. As the beginner speeds up with his recently increase in muscle fitness, he reaches a new limit. In this case, maybe the oxygen processing capacity of his mitochondria can't keep up with the pace at which his muscles are now capable of running. After some more training his mitochondria now have sufficent energy processing capabilities, but maybe his heart isn't able to transport sufficient oxygen fast enought to his running muslces. And the process continues, with different physiological parts of the body limiting performance at different times. Further, I propose a runner will be limited by different factors based on the distance & conditions he/she is running in. For example, the thing that limits a runner in a 5k might not be the same thing that limits him/her in a marathon. Aerobic capacity could limit performance in the 5k but resistance to muscle damage & fatigue could limit performance in the marathon. A runner can be fully trained to race one distance, with all his/her physiological processes working at the max potential during that race, but be undertrained / not fully adapted to race another distance meaning his/her physiological systems are not all working at max capacity at this other distance. This explains why someone might run well in a 10k but then run much slower in the marathon than their 10k performance predicts. Their physiological systems were fully trained for the 10k, but not fully trained for the marathon. ------------------
Richard
World's Fastest Slow Guy
www.powerrunning.com
IP: Logged |
Richard99
Cool Runner |
posted May-21-2007 12:21 PM
quote:
Originally posted by bigapplepie:
Ricard, the one I looked at was here.
Please can you post a link to the new one?
bigappliepie, The most current stuff I'm aware of is in the new book "Run Less, Run Faster" that was just published. I picked up a copy of it at Barnes & Noble last Friday. I don't know of anything on-line that is more detailed or current than the book. ------------------
Richard
World's Fastest Slow Guy
www.powerrunning.com
IP: Logged |
fuzz
Cool Runner |
posted May-21-2007 12:36 PM
quote:
Originally posted by Richard99:
Basically I propose that there is no 1 one thing that limits performance all the time. Different physiological things can limit performance at different times, depending on the training status and individual characteristics of the person.
Holy crap! Brilliant! That has never occurred to anyone before in the entire history of the planet!When do you plan to publish this earth-shattering revelation, Dr. Obvious?
IP: Logged |
Richard99
Cool Runner |
posted May-21-2007 12:42 PM
quote:
Originally posted by fuzz:
Holy crap! Brilliant! That has never occurred to anyone before in the entire history of the planet!When do you plan to publish this earth-shattering revelation, Dr. Obvious?
fuzz, I'm pleased that you agree with my theory. Let's spread the word. ------------------
Richard
World's Fastest Slow Guy
www.powerrunning.com
[This message has been edited by Richard99 (edited May-21-2007).]
IP: Logged |
martinjames
Cool Runner |
posted May-21-2007 01:09 PM
quote:
Originally posted by Nobby:
Sorry to break the news but... No, it wasn't 1:45AM, it was "only" an hour and 45 minutes run. Sorry! However, I did use to run 4:00AM when my daughter was first born. That was the time my wife was really into marathon training as well and the only time we could shuffle and for me to run a decent amount of run in was EARLY in the morning. It could get tough when it's -40 outside in MN winter...
Ahh, good. I thought you were following the Dean Karnazes midnight run philosophy. Now I don't feel like such a slacker.
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Nobby
Cool Runner |
posted May-21-2007 01:21 PM
quote:
Originally posted by Richard99:
Nobby,My physiological theory to explain what is happening in the body during training and what limits performance is what I call a dynamic model of fatigue. In short, I propose that different things cause fatigue & limit performance at different times. At one point in training muscles may be limiting performance, at other times it could be insufficient mitochondria, and at other times it could be muscle acidity. Basically I propose that there is no 1 one thing that limits performance all the time. Different physiological things can limit performance at different times, depending on the training status and individual characteristics of the person. For example, a beginner runner may initially be limited by weak muscles. The beginners cardiovascular system may be sufficient but his/her muscles are too weak and out of shape to run very fast or far. With training, the beginner's muscles get stronger and more enduring. Now the beginner can run faster, longer. As the beginner speeds up with his recently increase in muscle fitness, he reaches a new limit. In this case, maybe the oxygen processing capacity of his mitochondria can't keep up with the pace at which his muscles are now capable of running. After some more training his mitochondria now have sufficent energy processing capabilities, but maybe his heart isn't able to transport sufficient oxygen fast enought to his running muslces. And the process continues, with different physiological parts of the body limiting performance at different times. Further, I propose a runner will be limited by different factors based on the distance & conditions he/she is running in. For example, the thing that limits a runner in a 5k might not be the same thing that limits him/her in a marathon. Aerobic capacity could limit performance in the 5k but resistance to muscle damage & fatigue could limit performance in the marathon. A runner can be fully trained to race one distance, with all his/her physiological processes working at the max potential during that race, but be undertrained / not fully adapted to race another distance meaning his/her physiological systems are not all working at max capacity at this other distance. This explains why someone might run well in a 10k but then run much slower in the marathon than their 10k performance predicts. Their physiological systems were fully trained for the 10k, but not fully trained for the marathon.
Richard: Whether it's an earth-shatteringly new theory or something we've known for ages, it was VERY good. Thanks! And I'm also glad that you actually think it all depends on what you do and how you do them in training; none of those "inborn talent" crap. I also want to say something about this "central limiter" stuff. Isn't it something Tim Noak has been working on for quite some time? I remeber seeing some article in the Journal of Running Science (in Japan) which I contributed a couple of years ago (not this particular article). They sent me a copy and I saw a bunch of pictures of brain. To be honest, I haven't read it yet (I guess I can't use the excuse of "It's not my language!" ;o)). My first reaction to that, actually, is; "They sure come up with some excuse!" What's next? The leg length? There are things we have NO control over. Let's worry about things that we DO have control over. Have you maximize your nutrition? Are you getting adequate rest (instead of partying or spending too much time on internet)? Have you worked on your technique? How about flexibility? Strength? Is your posture good and muscles in good balance?... I think there are far too many things that we overlook before we move on to our brain that limits our performance. I'm sure those Kenyan kids don't think like, "Gee, I think my brain is limiting me to run fast...!" Are they all born gifted (sure as hell looks that way though!)? Is it really altitide that makes that big of a difference? So if you bring someone from altitude, can you duplicate Kenyan's performance? Then let's move up there (I guess some people are doing that)? But then what about Japanese? What are THEY doing right? There ARE things we can do--if that's what you want; that is!
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tigger
Cool Runner |
posted May-21-2007 01:42 PM
Noakes is significantly different from R99. First of all, he is/was a solid long distance (including many ultras) runner. Secondly, he really is a scientist, not just someone who stayed at a Holiday Inn last night. Thirdly, while he uses science to support his theories he also believes in results.I have read his book. I think he generally follows a Lydiard approach, but maybe I should go back and check.
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tigger
Cool Runner |
posted May-21-2007 01:52 PM
quote:
Originally posted by fuzz:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Richard99:
[b]Basically I propose that there is no 1 one thing that limits performance all the time. Different physiological things can limit performance at different times, depending on the training status and individual characteristics of the person.
Holy crap! Brilliant! That has never occurred to anyone before in the entire history of the planet!When do you plan to publish this earth-shattering revelation, Dr. Obvious?[/B][/QUOTE] Be careful fuzz! Before publishing, a great theory should be thoroughly peer reviewed, else it wind up in a position similar to cold fusion.
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rengle
Cool Runner |
posted May-21-2007 02:39 PM
I don't see how any of the limiting factors Richard99 proposes will be improved by running less. If mitochondria are the limiting factor you'd want to do more aerobic work. If muscle weakness is the limiting factor you'd want to do more resistance work, e.g hills, or faster paced running, and so on.
I'll say it again, if you're not as good at something as you want to be you get better by doing more of that something, not less.
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Kim Stevenson
Cool Runner |
posted May-21-2007 02:50 PM
quote:
Originally posted by Nobby:
Richard:Whether it's an earth-shatteringly new theory or something we've known for ages, it was VERY good. Thanks! And I'm also glad that you actually think it all depends on what you do and how you do them in training; none of those "inborn talent" crap. I also want to say something about this "central limiter" stuff. Isn't it something Tim Noak has been working on for quite some time? I remeber seeing some article in the Journal of Running Science (in Japan) which I contributed a couple of years ago (not this particular article). They sent me a copy and I saw a bunch of pictures of brain. To be honest, I haven't read it yet (I guess I can't use the excuse of "It's not my language!" ;o)). My first reaction to that, actually, is; "They sure come up with some excuse!" What's next? The leg length? There are things we have NO control over. Let's worry about things that we DO have control over. Have you maximize your nutrition? Are you getting adequate rest (instead of partying or spending too much time on internet)? Have you worked on your technique? How about flexibility? Strength? Is your posture good and muscles in good balance?... I think there are far too many things that we overlook before we move on to our brain that limits our performance. I'm sure those Kenyan kids don't think like, "Gee, I think my brain is limiting me to run fast...!" Are they all born gifted (sure as hell looks that way though!)? Is it really altitide that makes that big of a difference? So if you bring someone from altitude, can you duplicate Kenyan's performance? Then let's move up there (I guess some people are doing that)? But then what about Japanese? What are THEY doing right? There ARE things we can do--if that's what you want; that is!
Nobby : great posts !!.
I too am getting a little sick of all these 'Studies". My interest is taking Joe/joanne Bloggs ..wannabe athlete.. and making them faster/better whatever.
Studies are interesting reading but I take what I need from them but I don't stop and revamp every little thing I do just because Dr Ex Phys says so in his study of 100 'volumteers'.
I believe one of the reasons that Western athletes have not been running that well is because people are takng too much notice of the Science and not enough of the work factor.
They want more for Less. Sorry Team it don't work that way.
The US is a prime example. The US had sub 4 min milers running out its ears 40 years ago and based on per head population running now they are not in the same Ball park.
Don't worry : here in NZ we went the same way. I belive we are heading back to where we were. It will take little time. But our Triathletes and Rowres have shown the Flag.
Awhile ago I saw a study written by someone about why the Kenyans are doing so well. After lots of "research" the bottom line came up "Its Attitude, not altitude".
Just ask Craig Mottram. Just as an aside : I thought I would chuck in some "Talent" info here.
My best times in High School were 880:2:10, 1 mile : 5:20
I did not break 5 mins for a mile until I was nearly 21.
Do I rate as Talentless !!! I made a "hash" of it (Every possible mistake) on the way but gradually I got there.
Bottom line : I wanted the time so I did the time. ------------------
Run easy, Run long
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bigapplepie
Cool Runner |
posted May-21-2007 02:52 PM
NB: All of the Furman Institute's cross-training workouts are aerobic in nature.Cross-Training Workout #1 (XT #1) Choose one of the following workouts for XT #1: 1. Mode: Stationary cycling (45 minutes)
Workout: 8 min. easy spinning, 30 min. moderate, 7 min. easy; cadence ~95-100rpm 2. Mode: Stationary cycling (spinner bike; 45-60 minutes)
Workout: Constant spin workout of 45-60 min. of fast spinning cadence >100rpm.
After 10 minutes, adjust the resistance to around a 2 (on a perceived scale of 1 to 5 with 1 being very very easy to pedal and 5 be very very hard to pedal. This should not be a very taxing workout but you should be sweating by 30 minutes 3. Mode: Pool: No swimming but kicking (~20 – 30 minutes)
Workout: Most runners hate kicking because they are so bad at it. But it will help. Kick 1 length of a 25 meter or yard pool; rest 30 seconds. Repeat this 20 times. Use a kick board and hold the kickboard out in front of you. You do NOT need to put your face in the water. Focus on kicking from the hips rather than the knees. 4. Mode: Stationary cycling and running (50 minutes)
Workout: 5 minutes easy as a warm-up; increase cadence to 100+ rpm and maintain that cadence for 35 min., 10 minutes of EASY running afterwards as a cool-down 5. Mode: Rowing (30 minutes)
Workout: 5 minutes easy rowing, then 1 min. HARD effort, 1 min. EASY effort, 2 min. HARD effort, 1 min. EASY effort; 3 min. HARD effort, 1 min. EASY effort; 4 min. HARD effort, 1 min. EASY effort; 3 min. HARD effort, 1 min. EASY effort; 2 min. HARD effort, 1 min. EASY effort; 1 min. HARD effort, 3 min. cool-down Cross-Training Workout #2 (XT #2) Choose one of the following workouts for XT #2: 1. Mode: Stationary cycling (60 minutes)
Workout: 10 min. easy spinning as a warm-up, 20 min. moderate to hard, 5 min. easy; 20 min. moderate to hard, 5 min. easy as recovery; all with cadence ~95-100rpm 2. Mode: Stationary cycling (60 minutes)
Workout: 10 min. easy spinning as a warm-up, alternate 1 minute at level 4 resistance (on a perceived resistance scale of 1 to 5) as fast as you can followed by 4 easy (level 1) minutes of fast spinning. Repeat this 8 times. 10 min. easy as a cool-down. 3. Mode: Stationary cycling and rowing (60 minutes)
Workout: 10 min. easy spinning, then alternate 5 minutes hard/fast rowing and 5 minutes cycling. Repeat this sequence 4 time (for 40 minutes total exercise), then 10 minutes spinning as a cool-down 4. Mode: Stationary cycling and running (60 minutes)
Workout: 10 min. easy spinning, 35 min. moderate, 5 min. easy; cadence ~95-100rpm. Followed immediately by 10 minutes of easy running 5. Mode: Stationary cycling and running (~ 60 minutes)
Workout: 10 min. easy spinning as a warm-up, 15 minute at level 3 resistance (on a perceived resistance scale of 1 to 5), jog 1 mile at your long run pace; Repeat this 2 times. 10 min. easy spinning as a cool-down.
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denton
Cool Runner |
posted May-21-2007 02:58 PM
...yes limited by training.....that's the one thing people don't quite seem to get...they want excuses..... running somehow gets esier when u do it more (and in a well organized manner)......geeezzz....what a concept..."That less trained runners are limited by other metabolic processes and not limited by the ability of the heart, lungs, & arteries to deliver oxygen to working muscles." Kim... my domain story that goes down in the annals is when i went to the domain when i first arrived in akld....supposed to meet up with a bunch of guys who i had only emailed with.... met up with robbie, jason cameron and a handful of the other JAFA's but on my way ober i see this goofy lookng older guy in a loose pair of tights who is only coaching and not running....geez i say to myself...'put some track pants on you dweeby idiot instead of those baggy old tights'.....not more than 5mins later cameron says 'hey mark i'd like to introduce u to barry magee'.......needless to say u an probably guess who the older guy in the tights was...
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bigapplepie
Cool Runner |
posted May-21-2007 03:14 PM
I think David Moorcroft pointed out that 25 years ago the top London Athletic clubs would each have dozens of runners putting in 100+ miles per week. Today each club may have half a dozen.Of course back then all competitive runners had amateur status and most worked full or part-time jobs. I wonder if professionalism has had an impact. Perhaps those runners than can't foresee making a living out of the sport give up at a relatively early age.
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Richard99
Cool Runner |
posted May-21-2007 03:17 PM
quote:
Originally posted by Nobby:
I also want to say something about this "central limiter" stuff. Isn't it something Tim Noak has been working on for quite some time? I
Nobby, The "central limitations" we've been discussing are specific to the cardiovascular/anaerobic model (the theory runners are referring to when they talk about VO2max, lactate threshold, and running economy). The central limitations specifically referring to the delivery of oxygen to working muscles. Noakes introduced a new theory - called the Central Governor - and it is not the same as "central limitations". Noakes central governor posits that the brain is always monitoring all the systems of the body and anytime any one or more of those systems nears a critical level, the brain forces the runner to slow the pace in order to protect the body from catastrophic failure. For example, if, when running in hot weather, you start getting too hot, the brain reacts in multiple ways including increased sweating, directing more blood flow to the skin, forcing a slowing of the pace, and sending increasingly stronger signals of distress to the conscious brain, all in an effort to try and prevent the core temperature from going too high. In this way, the brain seeks to protect body from severe or life threatening damage. ------------------
Richard
World's Fastest Slow Guy
www.powerrunning.com
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bigapplepie
Cool Runner |
posted May-21-2007 03:58 PM
quote:
Originally posted by Richard99:
Nobby,The "central limitations" we've been discussing are specific to the cardiovascular/anaerobic model (the theory runners are referring to when they talk about VO2max, lactate threshold, and running economy). The central limitations specifically referring to the delivery of oxygen to working muscles.
Which is all covered in "Daniels Running Formula" under the section on "Developing the Cardiovascular System" which goes in to: - Developing the heart as a pump;
- Increasing the oxygen carrying capacity of the blood;
- Hemodynamics; The Characteristics of blood flow.
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Brian McN
Cool Runner |
posted May-21-2007 04:09 PM
Richard,Noakes' theory is interesting and thought provoking but it is not proven. Just so you know they have not thrown out the old models completely in favor of Noakes' theory in physiology school. Not to say they are completely right but for now the general consensus currently amongst physiologists is that Noakes is a little out in left field with that theory. Again I'm not in the position to say he is wrong.
Still, going back to what rengle had said in an attempt to stay on target here how does running less increase the size of mitochondria, increase heart stroke volume, expand old capillaries and develop new ones? Lydiard knew his methods worked long before any physiological explanation. The physiologists followed and tried to figure out how because it was obvious that whoever took to his training improved. All of these increases occured during longer runs in which there was constant cardiac pressure from the heart. If you are going to prove his theories wrong you have to address this and tell us why he was wrong.
What attracted me to reading his books originally was a picture I saw of him. To me he didn't look like a runner capable of running the kind of times he ran for his time period. I figured that the guy got the most out himself to accomplish that. It's funny to me when people only associate him to elite runners or talented runners only. If you met me you probably would not even know I'm a runner at all. Most runners behind me have more talent for running then I do. I'm OK with them not putting the time into their training.
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Brian McN
Cool Runner |
posted May-21-2007 04:12 PM
Richard,Noakes' theory is interesting and thought provoking but it is not proven. Just so you know they have not thrown out the old models completely in favor of Noakes' theory in physiology school. Not to say they are completely right but for now the general consensus currently amongst physiologists is that Noakes is a little out in left field with that theory. Again I'm not in the position to say he is wrong.
Still, going back to what rengle had said in an attempt to stay on target here how does running less increase the size of mitochondria, increase heart stroke volume, expand old capillaries and develop new ones? Lydiard knew his methods worked long before any physiological explanation. The physiologists followed and tried to figure out how because it was obvious that whoever took to his training improved. All of these increases occured during longer runs in which there was constant cardiac pressure from the heart. If you are going to prove his theories wrong you have to address this and tell us why he was wrong.
What attracted me to reading his books originally was a picture I saw of him. To me he didn't look like a runner capable of running the kind of times he ran for his time period. I figured that the guy got the most out himself to accomplish that. It's funny to me when people only associate him to elite runners or talented runners only. If you met me you probably would not even know I'm a runner at all. Most runners behind me have more talent for running then I do. I'm OK with them not putting the time into their training.
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Brian McN
Cool Runner |
posted May-21-2007 04:14 PM
Richard,Noakes' theory is interesting and thought provoking but it is not proven. Just so you know they have not thrown out the old models completely in favor of Noakes' theory in physiology school. Not to say they are completely right but for now the general consensus currently amongst physiologists is that Noakes is a little out in left field with that theory. Again I'm not in the position to say he is wrong.
Still, going back to what rengle had said in an attempt to stay on target here how does running less increase the size of mitochondria, increase heart stroke volume, expand old capillaries and develop new ones? Lydiard knew his methods worked long before any physiological explanation. The physiologists followed and tried to figure out how because it was obvious that whoever took to his training improved. All of these increases occured during longer runs in which there was constant cardiac pressure from the heart. If you are going to prove his theories wrong you have to address this and tell us why he was wrong.
What attracted me to reading his books originally was a picture I saw of him. To me he didn't look like a runner capable of running the kind of times he ran for his time period. I figured that the guy got the most out himself to accomplish that. It's funny to me when people only associate him to elite runners or talented runners only. If you met me you probably would not even know I'm a runner at all. Most runners behind me have more talent for running then I do. I'm OK with them not putting the time into their training.
IP: Logged |
trackrunnerguy
Cool Runner |
posted May-21-2007 04:52 PM
The secret to running fast is speaking to those who are fast.
www.letsrun.com
IP: Logged |
denton
Cool Runner |
posted May-21-2007 05:34 PM
...oh come on now...that's just too easy of a concept...people like to make things difficult for themselves by creating shortcuts, which really is nothing more than a reason not to do what really makes you faster....just getting out the door....
quote:
Originally posted by trackrunnerguy:
The secret to running fast is speaking to those who are fast.
www.letsrun.com
IP: Logged |
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