| Author |
Topic: The Truth About Mileage |
AndyHass
Cool Runner |
 posted May-18-2007 08:15 AM
   
quote:
Originally posted by Richard99:
This is an interesting point that brings up a question for Nobby, rengle, & Kim. What is your level of experience working with 4+ hour marathoners, especially compared to working with 3 and faster marathoners?
What is your experience training ANYBODY??
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Brian McN
Cool Runner |
posted May-18-2007 08:18 AM
The problem is that he claims to have a program for all levels. Its like Galloway saying that elite athletes will someday be on three to four day a week schedules. How could you believe in anything else they are saying when they have it so wrong for advanced runners?
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tigger
Cool Runner |
posted May-18-2007 08:57 AM
quote:
Originally posted by AndyHass:
What is your experience training ANYBODY??
A good point,and one he was asked about 40 posts ago. I doubt if he will answer this time either.
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Richard99
Cool Runner |
posted May-18-2007 09:06 AM
quote:
Originally posted by tigger:
A good point,and one he was asked about 40 posts ago. I doubt if he will answer this time either.
The answer to this question has long been available to everyone. My experiences are available to any and all who care to read them as they have been prominently posted on my web site since I started it. Power Running results ------------------
Richard
World's Fastest Slow Guy
www.powerrunning.com [This message has been edited by Richard99 (edited May-18-2007).]
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Nobby
Cool Runner |
posted May-18-2007 09:14 AM
quote:
Originally posted by Richard99:
This is an interesting point that brings up a question for Nobby, rengle, & Kim. What is your level of experience working with 4+ hour marathoners, especially compared to working with 3 and faster marathoners?
Not too many... I've helped a couple of "One-Timer" indirectly (my wife helped them). I think one did 5:02 or 03. (both female)--neither of them ran more than 3-hours in their preparation (remember, they were "One-Timer"...so far!). I think the slowest I've helped directly (via e-mail) is 4:20 but we are hoping to break 4 this fall. I guess I've helped more "First-Timers"; maybe about a dozen...??? Fortunately all of them (I think...) went under 4. Some barely (3:57 or something). Interestingly most of them are female. Some having been running for a couple of years; one did only one road race (5 miles) in her life and jumped to the marathon and broke 4-hours (Joe Henderson hated that because he had been telling people to move up gradually for many years!). I guess I had been fortunate to coach talented people! ;o) I helped this beginning jogging class for 3 years (4?). We always had 40 +/- "students" and, like I said, EVERY single one of them improved. But I won't count that, though I'm sure I've contributed, because, starting from nothing, then started to do something a couple of times a week; you WILL improve. Otherwise add 100+ joggers who "improved". The fastest I coached was a 2:42 female. I was training with her and then I developed sciatica. I was pacing her till 35k and the pain became unbareable and I had to drop out. I think I could have broken 2:40 that day...my regret. Your turn.
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fuzz
Cool Runner |
posted May-18-2007 09:37 AM
quote:
Originally posted by maryt:
they should be prepared for what's going to happen in their first marathon a whole lot better than just having run 12- 15 miles in training because of some arbitrary "rule" that runs shouldn't be longer than 2 1/2 to 3 hours. Talk about cookie-cutter.
Wait a sec, that's an oversimplification. The original suggestion ten or twelve pages ago was that people probably would get about the same results with 2.5-3 hour long runs as they would with 4-5 hour runs, because the 5-hour slogs require much longer recovery, which makes it difficult to develop pace & stamina on the weekdays. This would be especially true for older runners, no?
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Richard99
Cool Runner |
posted May-18-2007 09:47 AM
Nobby,I have never coached an elite runner. I spent 9 years on active duty in the US Army, 5 of those years as an Infantry officer and 4 years in the Green Berets. In my 4 years active duty in the Green Berets for 2 of them I set up the training program of the A-team (12 soldiers) I was assigned to. During my 5 years as an Officer I was responsible for the training of all the soldiers under my command and I estimate I either personally trained or set up and monitored the training schedule and performance of more than 100 soldiers. The longest period of time that I worked with any 1 person was about 2 years and probably averaged 1 year of training with most. The fastest soldier I ever coached ran 2 miles in 10:30 min. Since leaving the service I have not sought out coaching opportunities. I have coached a few friends competing in triathlons or training for a century ride in cycling, but nothing of consequence. ------------------
Richard
World's Fastest Slow Guy
www.powerrunning.com
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martinjames
Cool Runner |
posted May-18-2007 09:54 AM
quote:
Originally posted by Richard99:
The answer to this question has long been available to everyone. My experiences are available to any and all who care to read them as they have been prominently posted on my web site since I started it.Power Running results
Richard Richard, would it be so hard to just cut and paste a question that you have been asked "many times" according to your site? You get so defensive sometimes. I'll save you the trouble, here are the pertinent snippets from the website (remember, if you don't like how I did this, you had the opportunity to speak for yourself instead of pimping your site). "I haven't coached anyone you know. I have coached a few local runners and a cyclist or two, but none are elite level athletes." "I have trained, trained with, or led hundreds of Special Forces and infantry soldiers who train using a high intensity, low volume approach. And I've personally seen the improvements this method produces" Richard also quotes Noakes: "For example, who ever records that exceptional runners like Walter George and Alf Shrubb achieved quite remarkable performances on very low mileages? George ran a mile in 4:10.6 and a 16-km run in 49:29 on little more than 3 km of training per day. Even Paavo Nurmi, the most medaled Olympic runner of all times, trained pathetically little but performed exceptionally, even by today’s standards. The outstanding performances of the black African runners, from Kip Keino to Matthews Temane, have also been achieved on relatively little training in which high quality but relatively low volume has been emphasized.” He adds that Roger Bannister, the first runner to run a mile in less than 4 minutes, ran only about 25 miles per week." Richard, after looking at your site I come back to my previous conclusion that you are a weird guy. Edited to add: Ahh, Richard you must have have responded as I was posting. So I take back the cut-and-paste comment. My bad. [This message has been edited by martinjames (edited May-18-2007).]
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JimR
Cool Runner |
posted May-18-2007 09:55 AM
quote:
Originally posted by tigger:
A good point,and one he was asked about 40 posts ago. I doubt if he will answer this time either.
The answer: "Who have I trained? Here's my answer - I haven't coached anyone you know. I have coached a few local runners and a cyclist or two, but none are elite level athletes." edit: from this and the above posts, it doesn't sound as though he coached anyone through to a marathon. [This message has been edited by JimR (edited May-18-2007).]
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Nobby
Cool Runner |
posted May-18-2007 10:01 AM
quote:
Originally posted by Richard99:
...4 years in the Green Berets.
I won't mess with you then ;o)
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mikeF
Member |
posted May-18-2007 10:11 AM
I'm 60 and when training for a specific marathon once a year I average 70 miles a week for 20 weeks with peak of 100 mpw. I don't know if I could do with less mileage but it sure does reduce my weight, and I read that 1 lb is one minute less in the marathon.
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AndyHass
Cool Runner |
posted May-18-2007 10:46 AM
quote:
Originally posted by Richard99:
Nobby,I have never coached an elite runner. I spent 9 years on active duty in the US Army, 5 of those years as an Infantry officer and 4 years in the Green Berets. In my 4 years active duty in the Green Berets for 2 of them I set up the training program of the A-team (12 soldiers) I was assigned to. During my 5 years as an Officer I was responsible for the training of all the soldiers under my command and I estimate I either personally trained or set up and monitored the training schedule and performance of more than 100 soldiers. The longest period of time that I worked with any 1 person was about 2 years and probably averaged 1 year of training with most. The fastest soldier I ever coached ran 2 miles in 10:30 min. Since leaving the service I have not sought out coaching opportunities. I have coached a few friends competing in triathlons or training for a century ride in cycling, but nothing of consequence.
So basically, you haven't coached more than "a few local guys" as RUNNERS, as I know plenty of military men and they are not trained as RUNNERS. A college teammate of mine was a Seal, graduated from the class covered years back by the Discovery Channel. According to him, while the training was grueling it was NOT from a running perspective. He certainly did not get faster from it! Fastest trainee 10:30 2-mile...so basically 95% of the HS coaches in this country are more qualified than you to be commenting here, you're NEVER trained a marathoner, AND you only pretend to have any sort of scientific training, yet you question Nobby like you have some sort of legitimacy in the matter?
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rengle
Cool Runner |
posted May-18-2007 11:16 AM
Richard99,
I've never coached or advised anyone who's run a marathon slower than four hours. I am slightly selective about who I'll work with, not in terms of their performances at other distances, but in terms of the time committment they're willing to make, so that might skew the results.
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rengle
Cool Runner |
posted May-18-2007 11:18 AM
Richard99,
I've never coached or advised anyone who's run a marathon slower than four hours. I am slightly selective about who I'll work with, not in terms of their performances at other distances, but in terms of the time committment they're willing to make, so that might skew the results.
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willamona
Cool Runner |
posted May-18-2007 11:59 AM
quote:
Originally posted by martinjames:
oops, i meant MP + 10%.
LOL Somehow, I knew what you meant. ------------------
***********
My myspace
No Complaining
My User Profile
Low Heart Rate Training FAQ Because many have asked...
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willamona
Cool Runner |
posted May-18-2007 12:07 PM
quote:
Originally posted by rengle:
Richard99,
I've never coached or advised anyone who's run a marathon slower than four hours. I am slightly selective about who I'll work with, not in terms of their performances at other distances, but in terms of the time committment they're willing to make, so that might skew the results.
Ah, You are the only type of coach I have met. ------------------
***********
My myspace
No Complaining
My User Profile
Low Heart Rate Training FAQ Because many have asked...
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fredurie
Cool Runner |
posted May-18-2007 12:10 PM
quote:
Originally posted by bigapplepie:
Her's a Ron Hill story. After coming 19th in the Tokyo Olympic Marathon, Hill vowed to run every day. [QUOTE][b]There was a time that Hill had to have surgery on a knee so swollen that it took an hour of warming up to get it to bend. Hill ran on the morning of the operation, of course. The day after, without telling his doctors, he dragged his heavily bandaged leg out for a one mile shuffle. Three weeks later a doctor doubted that he would ever run on that knee again, "but I was already up to three miles a day," Hill said. "I just hadn't told him."
John Byant - The London Marathon.[/B][/QUOTE]Thanks. That's great.
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Richard99
Cool Runner |
posted May-18-2007 01:58 PM
While we are on the topic of coaching experiences... AndyHass, tigger, and JimR it's your turn.------------------
Richard
World's Fastest Slow Guy
www.powerrunning.com
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JimR
Cool Runner |
posted May-18-2007 02:12 PM
quote:
Originally posted by Richard99:
While we are on the topic of coaching experiences... AndyHass, tigger, and JimR it's your turn.
What for? I'm not the one promoting a website and training guide. And, I've never claimed to have coaching experience, but I am faster than you 
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Richard99
Cool Runner |
posted May-18-2007 02:34 PM
quote:
Originally posted by JimR:
What for?[/i]
For the simple reason that you 3 are quite vocal about training & physiological topics.
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AndyHass
Cool Runner |
posted May-18-2007 02:51 PM
quote:
Originally posted by Richard99:
While we are on the topic of coaching experiences... AndyHass, tigger, and JimR it's your turn.
Sure. Most recently I put together a HM plan for a coworker who ran 1:57 (goal 2:00). I helped put together plans for, and trained with, 3 former college teammates who went on to PR several years after the typical post-collegiate slow-down. Several other college buddies still consult from time to time to bounce ideas. I coached a group of 8-10 classmates who ran marathons in the 3:20-4:30 block a few years back. I've put together fairly detailed plans for 5-6 people from this site who emailed me and given maybe 5-6 more a large amount of feedback and suggestions over email. I volunteered with a HS team two different times. I helped a late-bloomer who set his marathon PR in his early 40s run his 2nd fastest at 50 (through INCREASED VOLUME). And I took 3.5 minutes off a 34+min college PR for myself and 25min off my marathon so far. In addition I did my training as a cellular biologist.
So it's pretty clear why I am vocal on training and physiology. What is not so clear is why you think you are more qualified than people who worked with some of the best coaches in the world, have actually trained distance runners (admitting that most of your "coaching" experience was with Army recruits practically admits you lack true running experience), have actual scientific expertise related to the field, or have first-hand knowledge of what it takes to train to be successful in this sport. You seem to lack all of the above. [This message has been edited by AndyHass (edited May-18-2007).]
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mrinertia
Cool Runner |
posted May-18-2007 02:54 PM
I'm an intermediate runner and I've been monitoring this thread pretty closely for a while. Between solid credentials and general common sense, I'm convinced that the Nobby/rengle camp has the most to offer. Here's my question: at what point do you think a runner needs an actual coach? I get decent advice from a local running club and a friend/mentor who got me interested in the sport. I've only been running for a year and have made a lot of progress and am still improving at a steady pace. I want with all of my heart to be fast, though, and I'm nowhere close. Not "fast for a big guy" or "fast for a beginner" but fast. I want to win a 10k and a hm. I want to BQ and take my age group in a marathon. Do you think I should keep progressing the best way I can until my rate of improvement plateaus? Do you think a coach this early in my training would be much more helpful than what I'm doing now? Do you need more info from me before answering my question?
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Brian McN
Cool Runner |
posted May-18-2007 03:34 PM
I'm not Nobby or Rengle but I can give some insight on how a coach has helped me.
Sometimes it's real difficult to look at things objectively. I need someone looking at the whole picture. Where I am now and the five year plan. Even the best elite runners who have a great knowledge of training benefit from having a coach for that reason.
I can remember several times over the past couple of years where I needed to know something about my training that would have been perfectly clear to me had I been coaching someone like myself.
I'm coaching someone now and I feel I have way better control over her running than my own.
You certainly don't have to be an advanced runner to benefit from a coaches' guidance.
I'm lucky in that my friend is also my coach. He like Kim is also from New Zealand. He coaches a few runners right now (I'm his slowest, for now) and takes no money from anyone for it. He does it for pure enjoyment. I get the feeling this is a trait of most coaches in New Zealand. Kim, correct me if I'm wrong.
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rengle
Cool Runner |
posted May-18-2007 03:43 PM
quote:
Originally posted by willamona:
Ah, You are the only type of coach I have met.
Ok. Does that mean something or is it just a random comment?
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Kim Stevenson
Cool Runner |
posted May-18-2007 03:52 PM
quote:
Originally posted by runfastcoach:
I think it is inaccurate to suggest or imply that all New Zealand runners are tougher than runners from the USA. It is simply not true. Kim's impression of American runners is influenced by his exposure to runners in Arkansas, where he attended university. In no way can runners from that region be representative of the whole of the USA.Growing up in Wisconsin and northern Illinois, I considered 32 degrees Farenheight (0 degrees centrigrade) to be balmy in the winter - not remotely cold. Often, my team mates and I raced in that sort of temperature without gloves, hates, or shirts underneath of your singlets. We trained in severely cold weather and never thought anything of it. I recall running 5 x 1 mile repeats in the cemetery across from our univeristy on late January day at 4 pm when I could barely see. There was ice on every corner and we often fell down. It was 6 degree Farenheit and the wind was a good 20-25 mph. I ran 11 miles in that workout aned considered it, "just another workout." Ask anyone from our region about their training and you don't normally here them complain that it was 15 degrees Farenheit or in the summer it was 94 degrees anbd 88% humidity. We just ran! A friend of mine and I talked last winter about running in the cold weather and how it makes " a runner tougher." That's our regional and cultural mentality. I said to Joe, "Peter Snell talked about running in the rain when others were resting, and he (Peter) was gaining yet another few tenths of a second on his competition." That's how our culture in Wisconsin was too. No different! It's the kind of culture the runners like Dick Beardsley, Rod Dehaven, Bob Kempanen, Tim Hacker, Steve Lacey, and the list goes on and on, grew up in. It's no wonder they were tough competitors! Take care, Tinman
Good one Tinman !. You are dead right. But the last thing I wanted to do is infer that Kiwi's are tougher than American's.
Why I appoached this argument the way I did was to get some of the people on here to "think" about what they are saying,doing and reacting to regarding their running. I wanted them to think 'outside the schedule or statistic".
I saw Arthur use this idea a few times.
Problem is the argument pulls guys like you in who know exactly how tough this sport is !!.
My apologies ! I really don't have any idea how tough a Wisconsin winter would be. But I know I would have had to train in it if I lived there.
To beat my own argument up a little but it does help. One of the guys who was with me in my early days in Arkansas (Running the corridors) became a very close friend and the last time we visited he told me we ran 7000 miles together.
But what I did was get him out on those Sunday mornings for the 2hr plus/20 milers.
The man was the most consistent runner (regarding Training) and one of the toughest I have ever met. He was also "Talentless". A 5 minute plus miler in High School who got down to 4:11 and a sub 15 min 5k. He still runs today for the pure enjoyment.
I feel my contribution to him was the slight "change" of culture. That is what I was trying to invoke in the good folks here. Keep it rolling Tinman. I need to drop a progress report to you on how things are going here. Very quiet as some of the kids have gone off to University in other towns. Cheers : Kim ------------------
Run easy, Run long
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