posted Apr-29-2007 02:39 PM               

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posted Apr-29-2007 03:01 PM               

even for half marathons people are taking 3-4 gels and drinking sports drinks along the way. Overkill!

I used to do this. Last year, I consumed 300 carb calories 3 hours before the event and drank maybe 4-6 oz of Gatorade and PRd by a lot. Obviously, I was well trained (thanks Tinman) but it kind of bugs me when people stop to consume gels in half marathons but to each their own.

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Todd

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posted Apr-29-2007 03:42 PM            

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posted Apr-29-2007 03:44 PM               

I attended one of Dr. Cooper's clinics years ago and he said, if the goal of exercise is to lose weight, the best time to exercise is first thing in the morning before you eat anything. That makes sense to me. However, I think there's a trade-off. The long run would be one of the key workouts and I like runners to do those key workouts well. If fasting, or not eating anything before the long run, would make you so tired that you barely stagger home, I don't think it's a good idea. I would usually fuel up the night before (yes, even for training runs) with honey in tea or something like that; perhaps eat a half a banana or a piece of toast before the run; something like that. I usually don't carry any water bottle, I don't usually even stop for a sip of water either.

Magazines and internet would provide so much information and that's good. But that does NOT mean we don't need to think any more. Way often than not, people just buy into whatever printed and blindly follow it. My wife ran Boston last year and the day before the marathon, they had one of Peace Run or something at Copley. It was a 5k race and the day was rather chilly. We went to the start and saw some people with one of those water bottle belt around their waist. "Do we really need to drink water during a 5k run on such a cool day like today?" my wife asked. Well, I'll leave the answer to you.

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posted Apr-29-2007 05:13 PM               

quote:

---

Originally posted by runawayjesse:
Richard, do you have a response to Nobby and Tinman?

---

So I see Richard's writing on his own website, but now ignoring this one. I thought he was the proponent of calm academic debate? What could be better than this thread? His silence speaks more about his "principles" than anything he's ever written.

Nobby, if you "hijacked" this thread, you have many grateful accomplices. This is all fascinating. I'm now going to ask one of my rookie questions. I have gotten to the point in my training that all of my times pretty much match up. In the last six weeks I've run a marathon, 10-mile and 10k, in that order, and the finishing times were all within a few seconds of the McMillan predictions, which I think means that I'm in pretty good shape aerobically. Looking forward, I'd like to get faster -- which seems obvious but I really don't know the smartest path. I see lots of 5k and 10k training schedules, but are they really any better than just running and keeping a balance of intensities/distances? Does one focus on increasing shorter distance speed and, if so, does that really mean a difference in the way we train? It seems like the best idea is to just keep running, keeping a simple balance of intensities, hills, and distances (including a long run of 2 to 2-1/2 hours). Am I missing something?

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posted Apr-29-2007 05:48 PM            

Just to chime in. I don't use anything but water during training. I believe that it only impedes fat-burning devlopment during training. The only race I will use a gel in is the marathon. I wait until 45 minutes into the race to do one then, once every 50 minutes. About 4 in the race. Just a little sports drink, mostly water, and I don't overdo. Every other water stop or so. We are built to run while a little dehydrated, while overhydration can be a killer.

--Jimmy

@@@@
jog log

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posted Apr-29-2007 06:06 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by jjwaverly42:
I always find it amusing when I run a 5k and there is water stop in the first mile.

---

--Jimmy
I get the feeling those water stations aren't meant for us, they are meant for the sedentary types who do these things for charity. For them the water stations can be a lifesaver.

I also remember a Nike race in Central Park with nearly 10,000 runners in 90 degree heat with high humidity. By the time people stood around at the start for 20-30 minutes then spent another 20-30 minutes crossing the start line they needed a drink

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posted Apr-29-2007 07:01 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by bigapplepie:

--Jimmy
I get the feeling those water stations aren't meant for us, they are meant for the sedentary types who do these things for charity. For them the water stations can be a lifesaver.

I also remember a Nike race in Central Park with nearly 10,000 runners in 90 degree heat with high humidity. By the time people stood around at the start for 20-30 minutes then spent another 20-30 minutes crossing the start line they needed a drink

---

I'm talking 5k's with 200 runners in fall temps. I know what you mean, though.

--Jimmy

Jog Log
zzzzzzz

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posted Apr-29-2007 07:04 PM            

Cyclists are more used to this issue, because the events are much longer. I do some endurance mountain bike races that last around 7 hours. For these, I will eat a large carbo heavy meal the night before and a decent breakfast - cereal and fruit - about an hour before the start. I will then only carry dried fruit & nuts and 3/4 Powerbars or Go bars. Will usually have the first bite to eat after about 3 hours in, then again after about 5.5. I always keep one bar in reserve in case of injury / getting caught out on the hill etc. I've tried the gels but I find they're really too insubstantial to be worth bothering with, and they taste bad!

Waterwise, I'll try to carry 5 litres ( I know others that carry 7).

I suppose anyone doing a slow marathon on a hot day might consider doing what I do on one of these races.

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posted Apr-29-2007 07:51 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by Nobby:
Jim:

Thanks for posting this link. It gave me an even better picture here. Some of you here might be aware; Lydiard had published several books through a German company before he passed away. Besindes "Running to the Top", he had "Distance Training for Masters", "Distance Training for Women", "Distance Training for Young Athletes", and "Jogging with Lydiard"; each and every one of them carries "similar but slightly different, geared toward each category, training schedules". In fact, none of them says "Run 100 miles a week." That would be an easy publication, wouldn't it? I wonder if those "Lydiard said everybody runs 100 miles a week" critics even knew there have been several books with different schedules published... Here we have it again; they should have done a better research before they even opened up their mouths.

What do people expect? There are, what, somebody has statistic? Some 30 million people running/jogging? Do they expect Lydiard to come up with a unique training schedule for each and every one of them? The very reason what drove Lydiard crazy and made him to say, "Hey, stretching is a waste of time" or "weight training is waste of time" is some idiots asking same old nonsense questions over and over and over and he got tired of it. Rengle said it at letsrun before; Lydiard training is not geared toward "idiots". Some read "100 miles a week" and that's all they see; cold print. Others, like Ron Daws, use what they've got between ears and read THROUGH the cold prints and understand the PRINCIPLES. But then again, not everybody is genetically smart, I guess...

---

Actually I think most are just lazy. Why research actuall principles when we can buy a book that has a schedule in it telling us what to do every day of the week. I can not even tell you how many times I asked people why they are doing such workout and they really don't know. They simply flip to the back of the book and do what it says to do. The first thing I think when I look at those schedules is "why" than I will read. I can not see doing something if it doesn't make sense to me. I look at the schedules in Lydiards books and to be honest I can not follow them to the letter. But than again I believe I'm following the principles even better by not following the schedules, if that makes any sense. It's the principles that need to be learned! By the time I have read Arthur's books I had my own schedule writin up based on what I have learned. Funny thing is when I compared it to the actuall schedules, they looked so similar. Ahhh now at least I know I learned something. Without knowing these things I wouldn't be able to apply them to my own training.

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posted Apr-29-2007 08:06 PM            

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posted Apr-29-2007 08:39 PM               

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posted Apr-29-2007 09:01 PM               

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posted Apr-29-2007 09:09 PM               

quote:

---

Originally posted by runawayjesse:
Actually I think most are just lazy. Why research actuall principles when we can buy a book that has a schedule in it telling us what to do every day of the week. I can not even tell you how many times I asked people why they are doing such workout and they really don't know. They simply flip to the back of the book and do what it says to do. The first thing I think when I look at those schedules is "why" than I will read. I can not see doing something if it doesn't make sense to me. I look at the schedules in Lydiards books and to be honest I can not follow them to the letter. But than again I believe I'm following the principles even better by not following the schedules, if that makes any sense. It's the principles that need to be learned! By the time I have read Arthur's books I had my own schedule writin up based on what I have learned. Funny thing is when I compared it to the actuall schedules, they looked so similar. Ahhh now at least I know I learned something. Without knowing these things I wouldn't be able to apply them to my own training.

---

Awesome ! I understand exactly what you are saying !!
That is the message we have been trying to push acoss.
Everyone needs to look at what suits them.
Some of us are working with a few HS Coaches and looking at various ideas that suit "their culture". The results are quietly being achieved.

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Run easy, Run long

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posted Apr-29-2007 09:18 PM               

Just to clarify... I'm totally alright to take some supplement or eat more substantial things during the marathon if you go for a long time (4 or 5 or more hours; or even somewhere around 3:30 or less). I'm talking about during the training when you're supposed to be teaching your body to go through some kind of a barrier. Also, just to throw my opinion in, I don't see any point of going beyond 3 hours even if your target time for the marathon is 5 hours. I feel going beyond 3 hours in training is a bit too much. This is why, actually, I believe Lydiard's time-based training more effective. I always thought it was crazy for a 5-hour marathon runner to run 22 miles for their long runs. Time-based, and I feel around 3-hours, would saffice.

Now you mention something about carrying dried fruits and/or nuts. I think nuts might be a bit tough to digest. You want all, or at least majority, of blood going into your working muscles. I'm curious why you chose nuts??? I don't think your body can properly digest "nuts" and affectively utilize nutrients from it WHILE running the marathon. Same with dried fruits (though it makes better sense). It could be still a bit too hard to digest. You might want some more liquid with it... I know you said you carry some 5 liters of water. That's a lot of water and a lot of extra weight to carry. Water stations provided by the race organizers not enough? I personally hate those water bottle thingies (my wife uses it though); they bounce around and throw my balance, etc... If you will carry 5 kilos (10 pounds) of extra weight, my only suggestion is to be very careful about staying steady; throwing off your balance could lead to some unforseen injuries. As for what you might want to eat, you need instant energy; honey is a good one as Lydiard always recommended; before the marathon as well as after (for recovery). Many old-timer marathon runners had honey in tea or lemon tea for their special drinks before Shorter commercialized (? ;o)) it with defizzed Coke as Rengle mentioned.

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posted Apr-29-2007 09:40 PM               

quote:

---

Originally posted by martinjames:
n the last six weeks I've run a marathon, 10-mile and 10k, in that order, and the finishing times were all within a few seconds of the McMillan predictions, which I think means that I'm in pretty good shape aerobically.

---

martinjames:

I don't know exactly what Greg based that calculations on (I know it's quite popular and I'll ask him next time I talk to him) but the fact you ran 3 different distances so nicely (according to that chart) within such a short period of time actually bothers me a bit. Yes, obviously your aerobic development is good. But then how about the other departments? Again, I don't know how Greg calculated his chart but if it's based on, say, %ile of majority of race participants (I don't think it is...), then you are probably short on anaerobic/speed development department.

When I promote the Lydiardism, it's because I believe in it. So I would suggest you take a look at your own program and compare that with that of the Lydiardism. We usually pick THE RACE that you would like to perform well and count back; count back weeks in blocks for each development. So, if you're, for whatever the reason, not quite satisfied with your performance, you need to go back and take a look at what's missing yourself. Did you feel, for example, as if you couldn't quite run as fast in your 10k race? Then you'd need to work on your anaerobic development or speed. If you feel quite comfortable and happy and satisfied with your performances for the marathon, 10 miles and 10k, then I guess there's nothing I need to suggest; your program is working nicely. Again, without quite knowing what Greg's chart is based on and how you felt about those performances, it's difficult to understand what you might need.

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posted Apr-29-2007 10:51 PM               

quote:

---

Originally posted by Nobby:
martinjames:

I don't know exactly what Greg based that calculations on (I know it's quite popular and I'll ask him next time I talk to him) but the fact you ran 3 different distances so nicely (according to that chart) within such a short period of time actually bothers me a bit. Yes, obviously your aerobic development is good. But then how about the other departments? Again, I don't know how Greg calculated his chart but if it's based on, say, %ile of majority of race participants (I don't think it is...), then you are probably short on anaerobic/speed development department.

When I promote the Lydiardism, it's because I believe in it. So I would suggest you take a look at your own program and compare that with that of the Lydiardism. We usually pick THE RACE that you would like to perform well and count back; count back weeks in blocks for each development. So, if you're, for whatever the reason, not quite satisfied with your performance, you need to go back and take a look at what's missing yourself. Did you feel, for example, as if you couldn't quite run as fast in your 10k race? Then you'd need to work on your anaerobic development or speed. If you feel quite comfortable and happy and satisfied with your performances for the marathon, 10 miles and 10k, then I guess there's nothing I need to suggest; your program is working nicely. Again, without quite knowing what Greg's chart is based on and how you felt about those performances, it's difficult to understand what you might need.

---

Well, that's the thing. I'd like to get my 10k time from 42 down to 40, and then extend it out. My question, poorly articulated, was whether the training to do that differed significantly from the training to, say, take 10 minutes off my marathon time. I don't want to wear out my welcome with dumb questions, so let me ask one last one. What Lydiard book or books would you recommend for the person just learning all of this? I think I need some "basebuilding" in the knowledge department.

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posted Apr-30-2007 08:20 AM               

quote:

---

Originally posted by martinjames:
Well, that's the thing. I'd like to get my 10k time from 42 down to 40, and then extend it out. My question, poorly articulated, was whether the training to do that differed significantly from the training to, say, take 10 minutes off my marathon time. I don't want to wear out my welcome with dumb questions, so let me ask one last one. What Lydiard book or books would you recommend for the person just learning all of this? I think I need some "basebuilding" in the knowledge department.

---

martinjames:

Marathon and 10k are different events; therefore, the training should be different as well. You would still run well one way or the other. Some elite runners have run very well in the marathon training for 10,000; or run very good 10,000 training for the marathon (more so for the former I think). But you always have to consider your own strengths and weaknesses, not someone else's.

Without knowing nothing about your background and training, I would assume your marathon time, based on 42-minutes 10k, would be about 3:45ish??? I think it's possible to knock 10-minutes off your marathon time, depending on your past training, by working on endurance/strength alone; and a couple of minutes off your 10k time by including, for example, some hill training. A lot depends on what you've been doing previously. I'm guessing, since you've just run a marathon, you haven't been doing much of hill repeats or, say, 200m repeats on track??? Then, yes, by including those in a systematic way could knock a few minutes off your 10k time.

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posted Apr-30-2007 11:07 AM               

quote:

---

Originally posted by runawayjesse:
Actually I think most are just lazy. Why research actuall principles when we can buy a book that has a schedule in it telling us what to do every day of the week. I can not even tell you how many times I asked people why they are doing such workout and they really don't know. They simply flip to the back of the book and do what it says to do. The first thing I think when I look at those schedules is "why" than I will read. I can not see doing something if it doesn't make sense to me. I look at the schedules in Lydiards books and to be honest I can not follow them to the letter. But than again I believe I'm following the principles even better by not following the schedules, if that makes any sense. It's the principles that need to be learned! By the time I have read Arthur's books I had my own schedule writin up based on what I have learned. Funny thing is when I compared it to the actuall schedules, they looked so similar. Ahhh now at least I know I learned something. Without knowing these things I wouldn't be able to apply them to my own training.

---

The thing with schedules, they are almost always race prep schedules, something like 18 or 20 week programs to bring you from some sort of a base to race day. I don't consider any of that to be training, just preparation. It's amazing how many people will go through these programs, then drop their running to almost nothing once the race has passed, until the next time they decide to run another marathon.

On the flip side of that, you have people running almost every day with no real organization or plan of any kind and they just go onwards with little or no improvement but a lot of miles.

I always say it comes down to what people want to do and what they want out of running. For me, I need info like what's being relayed here by nobby, Kim, et. al. to try and get better, especially as I'm approaching the big 5-oh.

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posted Apr-30-2007 12:50 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by JimR:
The thing with schedules, they are almost always race prep schedules, something like 18 or 20 week programs to bring you from some sort of a base to race day. I don't consider any of that to be training, just preparation. It's amazing how many people will go through these programs, then drop their running to almost nothing once the race has passed, until the next time they decide to run another marathon.

On the flip side of that, you have people running almost every day with no real organization or plan of any kind and they just go onwards with little or no improvement but a lot of miles.

I always say it comes down to what people want to do and what they want out of running. For me, I need info like what's being relayed here by nobby, Kim, et. al. to try and get better, especially as I'm approaching the big 5-oh.

---

Sounds like me. But being one who has never had any formal training, I had to use a book. It never occured to me to keep most of my mileage after a marathon and build from there. I guess I never did because I was too slow. Also, I just got used to slow miles. I figgured the more the better. After lots of reading, and that God for this thread, training is a different thing for me. I am working on my form, faster leg turn over, bounding and butt kicks to get my legs stronger. After two months of this, I am beginning to look like a runner, not and old lady jogging down the street.

I did buy another book. One by Lydiard for master runners.
Running is an art, and I want to be a good artist. Any thoughts are welcome.

Cathy

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posted Apr-30-2007 12:52 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by JimR:
The thing with schedules, they are almost always race prep schedules, something like 18 or 20 week programs to bring you from some sort of a base to race day. I don't consider any of that to be training, just preparation. It's amazing how many people will go through these programs, then drop their running to almost nothing once the race has passed, until the next time they decide to run another marathon.

On the flip side of that, you have people running almost every day with no real organization or plan of any kind and they just go onwards with little or no improvement but a lot of miles.

I always say it comes down to what people want to do and what they want out of running. For me, I need info like what's being relayed here by nobby, Kim, et. al. to try and get better, especially as I'm approaching the big 5-oh.

---

Sounds like me. But being one who has never had any formal training, I had to use a book. It never occured to me to keep most of my mileage after a marathon and build from there. I guess I never did because I was too slow. Also, I just got used to slow miles. I figgured the more the better. After lots of reading, and that God for this thread, training is a different thing for me. I am working on my form, faster leg turn over, bounding and butt kicks to get my legs stronger. After two months of this, I am beginning to look like a runner, not and old lady jogging down the street.

I did buy another book. One by Lydiard for master runners.
Running is an art, and I want to be a good artist. Any thoughts are welcome.

Cathy

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posted Apr-30-2007 01:03 PM            

Have exercise physiologists 'hi-jacked' middle/long distance running?

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posted Apr-30-2007 01:22 PM            

It wasn't of laziness, it was out of ignorance. I didn't know how much was out there.

Now I'm older and hopefully wiser, I've realized how important coaching is for running, lifting, eating or even for living your life.

Kids, if you're planning on any life changing activity, buy a book. Learn from other people's mistakes. You'll have a much more fulfilling experiencing as a result.

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posted Apr-30-2007 02:36 PM               

quote:

---

Originally posted by JimR:
The thing with schedules, they are almost always race prep schedules, something like 18 or 20 week programs to bring you from some sort of a base to race day. I don't consider any of that to be training, just preparation. It's amazing how many people will go through these programs, then drop their running to almost nothing once the race has passed, until the next time they decide to run another marathon.

On the flip side of that, you have people running almost every day with no real organization or plan of any kind and they just go onwards with little or no improvement but a lot of miles.

I always say it comes down to what people want to do and what they want out of running. For me, I need info like what's being relayed here by nobby, Kim, et. al. to try and get better, especially as I'm approaching the big 5-oh.

---

Jim, I do a lot of work with Trevor Ogilvie who won the WAVA 10k and 1/2 marathon for 55-59 year olds in 2004 and was fastest Steeplechaser in the world last year for same age group.He will be 60 later this year.
Basically, He keeps quite a large volume of mileage up. A problem in itself as we sometimes have to hold him back !!.
At present he is comng off a rather nasty dose of food poisonng so is gradually cranking up the miles. But it will soon be cross country season here so he will run a similar schedule to Arthur's Race week/non race week schedule then
later he will hit maybe 8 to 10 weeks of miles, then a mixture of hills and long intervals (aka Tinmans CV reps).
I don't Coach him (A very close mate does) but monitor what he does and occasionally have a run with him (slow stuff !!)
He was a late starter (49 years old) and it took about 3 to 4 years to work out what suited him. I would not put just anyone on his training.
The key to his success (He runs 7 days a week)is a long run on Sunday (2 to 21/2 hours and 2 long runs (11/2 hrs) during the week. Nearer track season those Midweek long runs become "Strong Aerobic runs". He does those on his own as very few (other than the young guys) can keep up.
BTW: Those Sunday runs are Year round !.

Cheers

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Run easy, Run long

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posted Apr-30-2007 03:19 PM               

quote:

---

Originally posted by Nobby:
martinjames:

Marathon and 10k are different events; therefore, the training should be different as well. You would still run well one way or the other. Some elite runners have run very well in the marathon training for 10,000; or run very good 10,000 training for the marathon (more so for the former I think). But you always have to consider your own strengths and weaknesses, not someone else's.

Without knowing nothing about your background and training, I would assume your marathon time, based on 42-minutes 10k, would be about 3:45ish??? I think it's possible to knock 10-minutes off your marathon time, depending on your past training, by working on endurance/strength alone; and a couple of minutes off your 10k time by including, for example, some hill training. A lot depends on what you've been doing previously. I'm guessing, since you've just run a marathon, you haven't been doing much of hill repeats or, say, 200m repeats on track??? Then, yes, by including those in a systematic way could knock a few minutes off your 10k time.

---

Actually, the marathon was just under 3:20, but otherwise correct and I get your point. I won't bore you or the others with my background, other than to say that i'm 43 and relatively new to running (20 mos. now). My only source of education has been Pfitz's Advanced Marathoning and what I read on the Internet. It's hard because I read one thing and then something else contradicts it completely (for example, Runner's World is pimping the 3-day-a-week marathon training plan again in its latest edition). For whatever reason, I was under the impression that training for the marathon was essentially equivalent to training for shorter distances down to 10k. I'm learning.

Thank you.

[This message has been edited by martinjames (edited Apr-30-2007).]

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