posted Apr-25-2007 11:02 PM            

Thanks again. I will go back to just reading and learning here. Very good stuff. If I have anymore questions, maybe I will get brave and post on your forum!

Cathy

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posted Apr-26-2007 04:14 AM               

quote:

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Originally posted by runawayjesse:
Since we are talking Lydiard I would like to get an answer from a question if I may. I have read all Lydairds books, lectures etc.. and for the life of me can not understand what roll the "sprint/floats" play in marathon preparation. That is during the sharpening phase of course. I mean for races of 10k and under they make perfect sense as they act as lactait tolerance,anaerobic power, speed all wraped into one workout but for the marathon I'm having a hard time believing that such a hard workout plays much of a roll at all. When I think of coordnation and sharpening I'm thinking about coordnation and sharpening for my specific goal race that is 3-4 weeks away. Again where does blasting 100 meter w/ 100 meter floats relate to the marathon race?

Thanks

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Okay ! I will have a crack at this.
Firstly, "back in the day" Arthur did not train the guys to run marathons "per se" . The guys were Track and Cross Country Runners who then ran Marathons.
I have seen all the old hands running track & Cross Country races as part of their total "marathon prep".
Barry Magee and Jeff Julian ran a lot of 10k and 10 mile races so kept very 'sharp'
Now as far as the Sprint/float aspect is concerned. You will notice that in later schedules Arthur only put that workout in for "experienced runners". Also it was only done once or twice in a 2 month programme.
BUT : Once again as we have mentioned on the other forum. A schedule is only a guide. It does not mean that Arthur wanted every runner to do that work.
I never asked Arthur why he put that workout into his marathon schedule but in one explanation I heard (not sure who gave it to me) was that apart from the obvious Anaerobic power/Cordination benefits. It was pointed out that also (part of the Co ordination comes in here) that work can help stride length increase, Even fractionally.
Now I know that 'increase' will not hold for the time of a Marathon but must have some effect overall.
Now I am not sure if that explains it to your satisfaction but I can use an example of an athlete I Coached.
A little history first.
I Coached this young woman in her early years and was guided heavily by Arthur and Arch Jelley.
Eventually, Both of us moved away from Auckland (me to here in Rotorua, Maree to Australia). On her return to NZ Maree was Coached by Arch. She trained for Cross Country, Track and later Mountain running.
As she became stronger she ran some marathons.
About 10 years ago. In our local marathon Maree was leading easily but ran into problems at around 38-39k. Her stride length had dropped considerably. I pulled up alongside her on my bike and called out "Sprint drills' and "Come lift the knees it is just another sprint" It took little while to 'sink in' in but gradually I watched that stride length increase. I kept her company until she had around 600-800m to go. She was fine.
She ran 2:39.
Maree admitted later that she felt she was not going to break 2:40 when she ran into trouble. She said she was thinking more about where the opposition was rather than her racing 'form'. Don't knoe why as her opposition was more than 10 minutes behind !!!.
She thanked me for getting her 'back on track'.

Does that help !.

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posted Apr-26-2007 07:57 AM            

quote:

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" ... what role do the "sprint/floats" play ... "

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The striders get you into a good leg turnover without being a sprint and just naturally work your running form. Since they're short in distance (100 meters or so) you do not end up doing speed work on otherwise easy days.

Bill

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Bill's Profile

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posted Apr-26-2007 08:06 AM               

I recently experimented with slowing down a lot of my runs. I was off training cycle, so I also stopped doing intervals. I found myself in a vicious cycle where my legs felt heavier and slower every day no matter what I ran (or didn't run). I am still not sure if there was a medical cause linked to it, but a few weeks back I started incorporating fast fartleks into many of my easy runs and running the last 1/10th mile of EVERY run as a hard acceleration. Nothing else has really changed in my training since I added them, yet my legs are starting to feel faster and lighter again and the improvement has returned...likely because my legs don't feel terrible all the time so I'm motivated to train more.

Long and wandering, but basically I'm convinced that it is necessary to keep some fast work in there even for the marathon, the % of it just goes down. Now, if you're running a 4-5hr marathon I don't think this is as meaningful as it is to me. It would be more meaningful for a runner of that level to think in terms of time, ie, compare what I am doing more to what they would do for a half marathon (2:20-2:30). If I were running a 5hr race, I wouldn't be concerned about slow and heavy legs in training at all because that would essentially be an ultra, and I'd never be remotely near the top end of my aerobic ability.

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posted Apr-26-2007 10:01 AM               

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posted Apr-26-2007 10:33 AM            

quote:

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Originally posted by runfastcoach:
Cathy,

I am limited on time, so this is brief. Dr. Maffetone's method of conditioning for running is generally fine. However, if only slow distance running is used (which is part of his method) then it will NOT produce the results you are hoping for, in my opinion. If you use it for 6 weeks and then move on to a mix of slower, moderate, and somewhat fast distance running you'll find your fitness and performance levels rising dramatically, by comparison.

Several runners who used either the Maffetone or the Hadd method of long, slow running daily, without some moderate or faster distance running, have contacted me over the last 3-4 years. Each of them found good improvements in the early going but they leveled off or got worse thereafter. I quickly provided them with a more balanced mix of distance work, slow, moderate and fast, in proportions of about 60, 30, and 10%, and the results were quite amazing.

One man, a professor from San Diego, improved from about 9 minutes per mile to 7:30 per mile in 12 weeks and he ran a very strong marathon, too. He was very pleased in both his elevated performance doing it the way I outlined and found a great sense of strength and vitality in his days and way.

So, my answer to your questions about what I think of the Maffetone method is therefore - mix it with some moderate and quicker distance running and you'll experience much better improvements and a better feeling of well-being.

Take care,

Tinnman

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I've done Maffetone's program for years, taking breaks now and then. But looking back, I always race better on his program. He does recommend an anerobic phase after the base building. In many ways, his approach is like Lydiards, and I've heard him speak at a couple of race events and he spent a long time praising Lydiard at one.

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posted Apr-26-2007 11:44 AM            

quote:

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Originally posted by AndyHass:
a few weeks back I started incorporating fast fartleks into many of my easy runs and running the last 1/10th mile of EVERY run as a hard acceleration.

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TIA...

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posted Apr-26-2007 11:59 AM            

quote:

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Originally posted by Sparrowface:
as my once nice ass and boobs age and sag to the ground)

Your words have the calm, assertive energy of a true pack leader! (I'm a Dog Whisperer devotee--leaks into my human life).

Our resident hunk, Richard, should take notice of how you don't create negative reaction in people.

I also have a feeling you are completely hot, like him. Yet, there is a gentleness, a true wisdom...thank you for everything you've shared with the running world.

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.

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posted Apr-26-2007 12:06 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by Sparrowface:
Maffetone

Your aerobic training pace done at the so-called MAF heart rate will come down to match the 2:00 over 5k easy pace rule that Mr. Tinman wrote about. I usually get down to about 1:30 over 5k pace at that heart rate (starting out the year probably 3:00-3:30 over the 5k pace at the same heart rate).

Sparrowface. Thanks so much for your feed back on this. My MAF pace is still way off based on a 5k race done over two years ago. So based on this, it would seem like I have the potential, if trained properly, to really get my race times down.

The problem that I am having with Maf right now is that my turnover becomes so slow I start having pain at the origin of both hamstrings. Because of this, I had decided to work down to my Maf rate. Personally I think it is much wiser for me to work on form, turnover,muscle elastisity and such, and then build the mileage back up.

I don't want to take away any more from this wonderful teaching thread, but I want to add that I am glad you found TheRunZone with Tinman and also I hope you check out the Lydaird Foundation. It's also a great palce to visit.

Tinman, there is a gentleness, a true wisdom...thank you for everything you've shared with the running world.

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I do 2nd this and I hope in the future you can share more of your tips with Cool Running. I'm also waiting for your book.

Cathy

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posted Apr-26-2007 12:21 PM            

"The race in New York will be his first since suffering a stress
reaction in one of his foot bones last March. To maintain his fitness while
the foot healed, he ran 130 miles per week for four weeks on a special
treadmill in Alberto Salazar's garage in Portland, Ore. The treadmill,
which Ritzenhein referred to as an "anti-gravity treadmill," uses air
pressure to reduce the amount of the athlete's body weight which he must
support while running. He was able to run while bearing only about 65%
of his body weight. He watched re-runs of the television program "The
OC" to alleviate the boredom."

130 miles a week while injured.

[This message has been edited by fredurie (edited Apr-26-2007).]

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posted Apr-26-2007 12:35 PM               

Both have said or stated that one must use aerobic conditioning at slower paces for a good while in order to maximize efficiency of burning fat sources as energy. But, if a runner keeps doing that, they will eventually turn their "engine" from one like a Toyata Camry into a put-put VW van from the 1970s. NO zip, no power, no speed!

Regards,

Tinman

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posted Apr-26-2007 12:42 PM            

Care to describe his training?

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posted Apr-26-2007 01:55 PM               

Nenow trained "his way" once he left the univeristy. He ran 13 sessions per week (twice per day 6 days per week and 1 longer run on Sunday). He ran in the late morning and then again after dark. His routine was mostly the same, over and over. He ran about 7 miles and 11 miles each run except for Sunday which was about 20. He ran over very hill courses (particularly the 11 miler) and pushed the pace when he felt good. He raced often, so that must be factored into the mix.

The only time he didn't race much was leading up to the 1984 Olympic Trials, thinking he needed to train and prepare. It was a mistake because he was flat and couldn't handle the fast track speed needed to make the team.

Later that summer, after doing some races and for the first time since college doing some interval work (repeat miles at 4:40 pace, which was basically LT work), he ran 27:20 to achieve and American record.

He ran a couple marathons, but didn't fare well - I think he ran 2:14 in one of them. That's probably because a runner must train more specifically for the marathon than for the 5k,10, or 15ks that he was running, I think.

Tinman

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posted Apr-26-2007 02:05 PM               

quote:

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Originally posted by runfastcoach:
It is important to note that I do think that Dr. Maffetone and the gentleman named Hadd who have writtend about training have been misconstrued, partly by others and partly by their lack of clarification. I know that both do NOT advcocate running slowly, day after day for weeks and months at a time. However, many people think that is the case because their writings make it seem as though it is a necessity to reach one's best.

Both have said or stated that one must use aerobic conditioning at slower paces for a good while in order to maximize efficiency of burning fat sources as energy. But, if a runner keeps doing that, they will eventually turn their "engine" from one like a Toyata Camry into a put-put VW van from the 1970s. NO zip, no power, no speed!
Tinman

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I don't know Hadd's work that well, but I think a big part of Maffetone's approach is to measure your aerobic progress regularly in order to 1) build as good an aerobic base as possible, 2) not get stale aerobically and 3) start anaerobic training when you have a great base. Also, Maffetone teaches various fast leg turnover techniques during base building (such as downhill running) so when a runner gets to the anaerobic phase, the turnover issue has been trained to some degree.

My aerobic pace went from 12:20 something at the onset, to 7:50s over a period of a few years (I usually did two base periods a year, two anaerobic periods and two race seasons).

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posted Apr-26-2007 02:36 PM            

Don't stop, keep this one up. I have a marathon this weekend and when I come back, I might have a few questions. As you can see, I use MAF to basebuild, but after that, well, this time I tried Pfitz and seem to have plateaued with it early on, but I guess the results will be out soon.

Currently, I am thinking about adding a tempo run every week, even during the base phase, but I will not know for sure until after the race on Sunday.

Ok, I am just rambling now. My point is, I am going to have some questions about training in the coming weeks, and I learned quite a bit just from reading these last few pages. Keep the discussion up, and I will be back after a race and recovery.

------------------
***********
My myspace
No Complaining
My User Profile
Low Heart Rate Training FAQ Because many have asked...

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posted Apr-26-2007 02:38 PM               

quote:

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Originally posted by fredurie:
http://www.letsrun.com/forum/flat_read.php?thread=1881926

"The race in New York will be his first since suffering a stress
reaction in one of his foot bones last March. To maintain his fitness while
the foot healed, he ran 130 miles per week for four weeks on a special
treadmill in Alberto Salazar's garage in Portland, Ore. The treadmill,
which Ritzenhein referred to as an "anti-gravity treadmill," uses air
pressure to reduce the amount of the athlete's body weight which he must
support while running. He was able to run while bearing only about 65%
of his body weight. He watched re-runs of the television program "The
OC" to alleviate the boredom."

130 miles a week while injured.

[This message has been edited by fredurie (edited Apr-26-2007).]

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Reruns of the OC to alleviate the boredom. Wha wha what?

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posted Apr-26-2007 02:41 PM               

quote:

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Originally posted by martinjames:
Reruns of the OC to alleviate the boredom. Wha wha what?

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I'd rather just watch the #s on the mill...

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posted Apr-26-2007 02:56 PM               

quote:

---

Originally posted by runfastcoach:
It is important to note that I do think that Dr. Maffetone and the gentleman named Hadd who have writtend about training have been misconstrued, partly by others and partly by their lack of clarification. I know that both do NOT advcocate running slowly, day after day for weeks and months at a time. However, many people think that is the case because their writings make it seem as though it is a necessity to reach one's best.

Both have said or stated that one must use aerobic conditioning at slower paces for a good while in order to maximize efficiency of burning fat sources as energy. But, if a runner keeps doing that, they will eventually turn their "engine" from one like a Toyata Camry into a put-put VW van from the 1970s. NO zip, no power, no speed!

Regards,

Tinman

---

As a Hadd follower, I'm just now beginning to understand how similar his suggestions were to Lydiard's philosophy. Lots of running at easy efforts initially, then adding a couple more strenuous days, and then with a speed day. Sounds a lot like the balance balance balance that was so convincingly discussed earlier in this thread.

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posted Apr-26-2007 03:14 PM               

quote:

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Originally posted by runfastcoach:
It is important to note that I do think that Dr. Maffetone and the gentleman named Hadd who have writtend about training have been misconstrued, partly by others and partly by their lack of clarification. I know that both do NOT advcocate running slowly, day after day for weeks and months at a time.

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True. Just going from memory, the runner in Hadd's "monster thread" example was running two runs a week at a HR of 160 ( based on a HRmax of 193 ) which would be a relatively easy tempo run ( dare I say a tinman tempo? ).

There is a poster on letsrun who is coached by Hadd and posted some of his actual training which included intervals, tempos etc. a couple of times a week, it was certainly endurance and aerobic fitness based but also included a significant amount of faster paced running.

That marathon base conditioning outlined by Hadd is not all there is to his program, it was just a beginning, very similar to Lydiard's marathon training phase.

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posted Apr-26-2007 05:30 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by breger1:
[QUOTE][b]" ... what role do the "sprint/floats" play ... "

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The striders get you into a good leg turnover without being a sprint and just naturally work your running form. Since they're short in distance (100 meters or so) you do not end up doing speed work on otherwise easy days.

Bill

[/B][/QUOTE]

I'm not talking about striders. I do strides 52 weeks per year, I'm well aware of their benefits. Lydiards Sprint/floats were way more than just stides. They served more as a anaerobic power/lactait tolerance workout than anything. I believe very few people do them the way Lydiard perscribed. They were a true sharpener workout "putting the edge on the knife" lydiard would say. I did them during my last 5k training and they did just that for me. They are a "puke your guts out" workout. The time to dig down deep. They sharpen you up real quick which is why they are done so close to peak. He said to never plan a set distance for these as you might want to hold back. Instead you just go till you "hit the wall". The most I can remember doing is 6 laps around a 400 meter track of 100 meter all out with 100 meter float(not jog). Usually 5 or 6 laps was enough to hold my HR at it's max for long enough and finally I would drop. I was racing 5k's everyweekend at this time and after 3 weeks of these sharpeners I became a whole different beast.

Kim I like your explaination but, really their are a few dozen different ways to increase stride length, work on knee lift etc.. without going so anaerobic. These workouts as I understand them are very hard and should only be done near peak. Again I'm having a hard time seeing where such an anaerobic puke your guts out workout has it's place 3-4 weeks out from a marathon. Sets of 200 meter striders w/ 200 easy jogs(not floats) seem more doable wouldn't you say?

I'm not trying to discredit lydiard at all here. It's just one of those things that leaves me scratching my head. On one hand your doing marathon paced time trials on the weekend which makes loads of sense to me during a coordnation phase(looking for weaknesses)than doing this workout mid week that goes off in the complete opposit direction. I would think you would use this day to work on your weaknesses. No?

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posted Apr-26-2007 06:56 PM               

quote:

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Originally posted by fuzz:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by AndyHass:
[b]a few weeks back I started incorporating fast fartleks into many of my easy runs and running the last 1/10th mile of EVERY run as a hard acceleration.

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TIA...[/B][/QUOTE]

Pretty much all of the above. Sometimes I just pick a landmark and go, and recover until I feel I'm ready again. Other times I set the interval timer on my watch. For instance, last week I did a 12-miler where I did 10X~150m with random recovery....I covered a little under 3 miles toward the end doing this. Later in the week, I did 12X(1:15ON, 1:30 OFF).

Like I said, it's a simple sport. When I'm getting close to races, I work hard to get on a track and do highly controlled workouts that allow me to know exactly where I'm at by going back through my logs and comparing workout times back to the history. When I'm getting in shape, like now, that's not too meaningful so i just keep it simple.

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posted Apr-27-2007 03:01 AM               

The truth of the fact is; 50/50 or sprint/float or sharpener or whatever it may be called is quite a different from "striders". I'd like to make a comment on this one later but sprint/float is quite a bit tougher workout than most people realize. As runawayjessie himself commented, it affects anaerobic power, or whatever you call it, (Tinman, I don't want to start a debate on the physiological reaction of this workout here! ;o)) quite significatly and it stimulate anaerobic metabolism as well as develop fine speed. Would a marathon runner really need it?

I'm totally with Kim; when Arthur put that schedule together, his marathon runners were glorified track distance men. Their main events were 5 and 10k on track and they trained accordingly. They were just a fast track man who ran marathon. So in that respect, it is logical for them to do a workout like this. Now today's marathon competition is just as feirce and it would pay to sharpen your sprinting ability. So if you're working toward the absolute peak, it would be beneficial. You would most likely get into the extreme anaerobic situation and you may need to rely on sprinting ability.

As for so-called "middle-of-packers", I would say not; at least not this type of extreme stress. Even Arthur said it would be better for majority of marathon runners to do 100/100 instead of 50/50 because then they would less likely to hurt themselves. Better yet, I still think slower runners would actually benefit from workout like 5 X 200m FAST with plenty of recovery than plodding Yasso 800s OR full sprint 50/50.

The point is; marathon runners would benefit from sprinting work and they would benefit from workout like 50/50 just as middle distance runners would benefit from long endurance work like 22 mile runs. I still believe Lydiard was one of the first people to put them all together; to have marathon people to enter some sprinting events at a low-key track meet as well as to have middle distance runners to go out and run some rediculously long distance.

Now, going back to this sprinting business. Partially perhaps because Lydiard criticized so much about people doing too much 400m repeats and they get defensive and reply, "Well, these are not all out anaerobic training..." all of a sudden now it's no-no to run too fast. This is completely opposite of true Lydiardism. He in fact suggest people to get out and work on their speed; get out and sprint full-out (after adequate homework). Running fast and hard requires so much more concentration and attention and planning. In short, it ain't as easy. It's so much easier to just go out and run; hense being a mileage junkie. There's a time to run long, there's a time to run short; there's a time to run easy and there's a time to run hard.... There's NOTHING wrong about getting out and run HARD or FAST. In fact, if you want to improve upon your performance, you need to do that. Now it seems everybody's satisfied with sort of a mediocor effort. "Well, we just do some easy strides here and there..." That's quite a bit different from all-out sprint. It really requires completely different muscles and different mental setting. Don't be afraid to get up on your toes and run fast. Of course, ease into it; never ever do too much too sudden.

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posted Apr-27-2007 04:32 AM               

BTW: This thread is a classic. I am lapping it up!

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posted Apr-27-2007 10:02 AM            

quote:

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Originally posted by Nobby:
Better yet, I still think slower runners would actually benefit from workout like 5 X 200m FAST with plenty of recovery than plodding Yasso 800s OR full sprint 50/50.

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20-30 min. easy
5 x 200m, jog between reps (100m to 200m jog?)
20-30 min. easy

(This thread is tremendous. Like sticking a note in the Western Wall, coming back a week later and finding Answers from God scribbled on the back...)

edited to add: Thanks for the reply, Andy

[This message has been edited by fuzz (edited Apr-27-2007).]

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posted Apr-27-2007 10:10 AM            

quote:

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Originally posted by brianfie:
Ahem....I think runawayjessie is a chick!

BTW: This thread is a classic. I am lapping it up!

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I personally feel it should be archived.

Cathy

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