| Author |
Topic: The Truth About Mileage |
Abadabajev
Cool Runner |
 posted Apr-16-2007 02:11 PM
  
quote:
Originally posted by Nobby:
Oops! Sorry for the double post!
I don't care if you triple post, I always like what you write. Keep them coming.
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JimR
Cool Runner |
posted Apr-16-2007 02:27 PM
quote:
Originally posted by Nobby:
It is almost silly to try to find what the optimal mileage at all. I guess it all depends on what people want and are chasing. If they want some paper to be published by saying they found some "truth" or "new finding", they would do almost anything to do so. As a practical coach, my interest is to improve runner's performance. For that, there are just as many situations and solutions as the number of runners you would deal with.Am I making sense? I feel like I'm just yapping...
Yes, you're making sense, and if it's yapping then yap away. I agree it's about what people want. Not just the wanna be researches or coaches, runners too. I think the first thing to find from a person is their goals, not their 'genetic potential'. Great posts, nobby.
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fuzz
Cool Runner |
posted Apr-16-2007 02:28 PM
quote:
Originally posted by Nobby:
Am I making sense?
Absolutely. And if I may echo what others have said -- thank you for posting here.
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oguzkesimli
Cool Runner |
posted Apr-16-2007 03:13 PM
"Future progress in terms of performance in running depends in part upon wide dissemination of philosophical, empirical, and scientific training knowledge." Author's Note from the book I first read and influenced greatly by Lydyard way of training back in 1981.
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tuscaloosarunner
Cool Runner |
posted Apr-16-2007 03:38 PM
Richard:Still no post in reply to Nobby?
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Nobby
Cool Runner |
posted Apr-16-2007 08:50 PM
tuscaloosarunner:I have to apologize to you; I thought you were being mean to our friend, Richard, by repeating some of your posts when the "truth", it seems, is that there was some technical problem and everything we posted got doubled. Meant no harm; sorry!
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fredurie
Cool Runner |
posted Apr-17-2007 01:27 PM
Nobby, while you are here, would you know anything about
Jeff Shiebler's training while he lived in Japan ( half marathon = 60.40 )?
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Brian McN
Cool Runner |
posted Apr-17-2007 06:54 PM
Nobby,You named three of my top five favorite runners of all time. I'll never forget watching Seko, Ikangaa, and Deek when I was a kid. Each one was so fearless. Ikangaa didn't know what drafting behind a runner meant because he never did. He went hard all the way. I got to watch him win New York in one of the most amazing crushing marathon victories in history. I still remember watching him so relaxed, his lower jaw even flopped around so he could conserve all of his energy.
These guys training schedules were far more difficult then the races they won. Just amazing.
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runawayjesse
Cool Runner |
posted Apr-17-2007 07:46 PM
Yeesss, Finally some real knowledge from mister Nobuya "Nobby" Hashizume himself!Glad to have ya!
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DanMoriarity
Cool Runner |
posted Apr-18-2007 08:28 AM
quote:
Originally posted by Nobby:
Am I making sense?
Perfect sense and thank you for posting.
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Nobby
Cool Runner |
posted Apr-18-2007 08:45 AM
quote:
Originally posted by fredurie:
Nobby, while you are here, would you know anything about
Jeff Shiebler's training while he lived in Japan ( half marathon = 60.40 )?
Sorry, but I don't know anything about Shiebler's training.
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JimR
Cool Runner |
posted Apr-18-2007 09:08 AM
Nobby, if I may ask, what types of terrain and environment do you predominently take runners through? Hilly? Trail? I get a sense that many high-end runners spend a fair amount of time away from asphalt.
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Nobby
Cool Runner |
posted Apr-18-2007 10:00 AM
quote:
Originally posted by JimR:
Nobby, if I may ask, what types of terrain and environment do you predominently take runners through? Hilly? Trail? I get a sense that many high-end runners spend a fair amount of time away from asphalt.
I personally would take them all over the place. Hills are vital particularly when you are doing long and relatively slow. Soft ground strengthen small muscles in your feet and ankles... On the other hand, though, Seko primarily trained on asphalt road. I have a rare picture of him training on trail in New Zealand. But I've seen a documentary of Seko training in New Zealand; he's running around Auckland Domain, a beautiful park with abandance of green grass...and he's running around the asphalt path! I've asked Nakamura why he never ran World Cross Country Champs (with his marathon stamina and middle distance speed). He said, "He doesn't know how to run XC." Takahashi is different; as we all know, her main training ground is Boulder, CO, and particularly Magnolia, the undulating dirt path. That's quite rocky and she runs there in marathon flats. I was actually thinking about this very topic yesterday when I was running around Wood Rill nature preserve. I had a tight calf and I love to run around there, up and down the hills through muddy course to stretch out tight calves... Someone asked me; "Lydiard said to run on the road." Actually he never said we should always run on the road. He said to obtain the best possible result to develop higher level of oxygen uptake level within the time spent training (he was always rushing, impatient...), you need to have a good traction and to run on asphalt is the best (because you can run, well, in short, faster aerobically on the surface with a good traction). This is quite different from "always run on the road." Quite a contrary, both Bill Baillie and Jeff Julian were a huge proponent for running cross country even during conditioning phase. Ray Puckett always ran a 10-mile loop on asphalt in the morning but on Sunday we used to go around rugged bush track around Kumeu up to 3-hours. I remember the first time he took me out there, I had this almost minimalist shoes (per Arthur's silent influence...). Ray had this regular thick (yet flexible and cushiony) shoes and, going up this rocky hill (I still vividly remember, it was raining and there was a stream forming...) and thinking, "Now I know why...!" So it is wrong to assume that "Arthur's Boys" always ran on the road. A friend of mine asked the late John Davies what to do when their legs feel sore. John said, "We used to run on grass every 3rd day or so..." Well...!!! I strongly believe, particularly for young athletes, that it is very important that they go on some rugged trail or golf course, some muddy course, etc. It develops much more supple strides that would eliminate a chance of injuries in the future (here we go again, is it simply mileage or these previous homework?). [This message has been edited by Nobby (edited Apr-18-2007).]
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Nobby
Cool Runner |
posted Apr-18-2007 10:22 AM
I just thought about one more thing in regards to this "homework"... When I was in New Zealand, I did the marathon conditioning and, when I moved on to hill phase, I pulled my calf muscles. I have tight calf to begin with but Arthur asked me if I "gradually eased into the hills, if I started doing some hill exercises a few weeks before (transition), or if I've done enough stretching (now, here's an interesting comment, huh?), etc." Then he said, "Well, you probably didn't do your homework." A friend of mine here, who's a well-known coach for whatever the reason, said to me one time that Lydiard method is no good. He said, "It's inviting injury when, for a period of 3 months, you do NOTHING but slow running; then all of a sudden switch to going up and down the hills..." I didn't even want to answer to this guy... NOWHERE in his book, Lydiard said "do nothing but slow running and suddenly start doing hills..." This is where some people quickly draw a conclusion and say "Lydiard Program Failed Again!!!!" There are so much more to Lydiard Program, or what they really did, than what he's written in books. In fact, I feel like I've learnt 5 times more (okay, I didn't calculate!) after talking to the original "Arthur's Boys" and learnt about what they actually did and how they did it than merely reading a book. And when it comes back to it, it's all common sense. If you throw away common sense and try to strictly adhere to the words and numbers; that's when problems occur. They would quickly draw conclusions... "Lydiard said to run 100 miles a week on the road; I did, and got injured. Therefore, Lydiard method is no good." What about diet? What about equipment? What about terrain? What about all the "homework" Arthur said that you should do easy jogging in the morning for recovery? Some suppling exercises to strenghtne your legs? He goes very detail about running equipments and today's so-called high tech shoes; did you follow his advice on that, or did you just follow "run 100 milea a week" as one and only cast-in-stone rule? I remember when I first read "Run to the Top" when I was in high school. I took a look at the schedule in the back and scratch 20X400 because it was too hard; scratch hill training phase because I couldn't find the hill circuit... Of course, I didn't get results. But that's what some researchers are doing, isn't it? They take out one component and see if that works. If you find one palm tree among pine forest, would that make the entire forest a palm tree forest? You laugh but to me, that's how a lot of research (particularly against Lydiardsm) is done. [This message has been edited by Nobby (edited Apr-18-2007).]
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flobaby
Cool Runner |
posted Apr-18-2007 10:42 AM
Nobby, you have made this thread one I actively avoided to one I cannot stop checking for updates. Thank you for your insightful writing, I truly look forward to your posts.
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bigapplepie
Cool Runner |
posted Apr-18-2007 10:49 AM
quote:
Originally posted by Nobby:
I think that the conclusion from this is that you cannot conclude.
Music to my ears. quote:
Originally posted by Nobby:
When you look at the lab result, one thing I always felt is, in the end, what do YOU want. If you want to jog for health; sure, I wouldn't necessarily recommend 100MPW. If you want to participate the Olympic Trial, I think it's safe to say there's a certain limit to how much you actually want to train. But if you want to perform well and go for the medal, improve your performance, so-called "known" limination of how much you can train with expected benefit return is so much more than any of lab report might indicate. And for middle of the packers? You need to consider more aspects than just mileage. If you're dealing with someone who has been running quite a bit for quite some time and stuck at, say, 4-hours, he/she might need some faster training and drop the mileage. On the other hand, if he/she has only been running, say, 6 miles a day everyday; I would alter the training to include a long run of up to 2-hours with some easy days in between. In other words, weekly mileage shows such a small fraction of whole training picture. It is almost silly to try to find what the optimal mileage at all. I guess it all depends on what people want and are chasing. If they want some paper to be published by saying they found some "truth" or "new finding", they would do almost anything to do so. As a practical coach, my interest is to improve runner's performance. For that, there are just as many situations and solutions as the number of runners you would deal with. Am I making sense? I feel like I'm just yapping...[/B]
Keep yapping 
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obsessor
Cool Runner |
posted Apr-18-2007 11:25 AM
Nobby,
Thanks for posting here and raising the level of the "debate." I say it so because most of us here know there really is no debate. Thank you also for your contribution to Minnesota, as well. I have seen first hand since I have started running about 4 years ago that this is a really special place for runners. Know that what you do and what you say has mattered to many here.
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DavidD
Cool Runner |
posted Apr-18-2007 12:05 PM
Lots of good discussion here. Just some comments.I don't think genetics is as significant for endurance athletes compared to sprinters (and I believe there is good research on this issue and I'll remember it at some point). Mileage is proportionate to overtraining (Salazar is a great example). Overtraining produces burnout, injuries, etc. I like Maffetone's formula for training (training = workout + rest/recovery). Most runners just don't have the time or energy to recover from higher milage (eg, full time job, family, other responsibilities). With a bit of objective self-evaluation (as objective as we humans can be) we can figure out our limits (a heart monitor is a great tool for this).
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martinjames
Cool Runner |
posted Apr-18-2007 12:34 PM
I'm tempted to say something stupid and provocative just to keep Nobby writing -- but I won't. Thanks.
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gregw
Cool Runner |
posted Apr-18-2007 12:44 PM
quote:
Originally posted by martinjames:
I'm tempted to say something stupid and provocative just to keep Nobby writing -- but I won't. Thanks.
I'll do it for you (although it is off topic I guess -- whatever the topic of this thread is). Just what is the 1/4, 1/2, and 3/4 effort in Lydiard's schedules? I have a feeling asking this is like asking "What is Buddha nature?," but I'll reveal myself as a dolt anyway. Greg
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fredurie
Cool Runner |
posted Apr-18-2007 01:14 PM
quote:
Originally posted by DavidD:
Mileage is proportionate to overtraining (Salazar is a great example). Overtraining produces burnout, injuries, etc. I like Maffetone's formula for training (training = workout + rest/recovery). Most runners just don't have the time or energy to recover from higher milage (eg, full time job, family, other responsibilities).
.
Salazar is not a great example of overtraining through mileage
Salazar was a man who was willing to give all he had in a
workout or in a race up to the point of dieing. He later said
that it was asthma that caused his problems. Salazar was sucking air through an altitude simulator that
used chemicals to remove the oxygen. I believe that you
would probably be inhaling something like barium hydroxide
or some other chemical into your lungs. To say that it was
overtraining from mileage is ignorance. "Most runners don't have the blah, blah, blah to do this or
do that" is a rationalization.
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fredurie
Cool Runner |
posted Apr-18-2007 01:40 PM
"Ryan Hall has been running up to 130 miles per week at the Team USA training venue of Mammoth Lakes, California, more than 7,000 feet above sea level."
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Abadabajev
Cool Runner |
posted Apr-18-2007 01:45 PM
quote:
Originally posted by Nobby:
hill phase
Nobby, The purpose of the Lydiard hill phase, is to develop power, build achilles, tendons, ligaments, flexibility, ankle strength, calves, train the fast twitch muscle fibers, by springing/bounding etc... Power is very important. Hill repeats develops power using your own body as resistance. In other words, the slower up the hill, the more resistance you create. 2 questions if I may: 1) Should hill repeats be attacked ferociously other than bounding and springing? This would catapult the runner in the anaerobic zone. 2) Is hill repeats a prelude to anaerobic training? What I am asking is was hill repeats intended to build up the body before the faster anaerobic stuff?
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DanMoriarity
Cool Runner |
posted Apr-18-2007 02:03 PM
quote:
Originally posted by fredurie:
Nobby, while you are here, would you know anything about
Jeff Shiebler's training while he lived in Japan ( half marathon = 60.40 )?
Fred; I once saw a "typical week" of Scheibler's training in an article on him prior to the Toronto Waterfront HM which he ran a few years ago, I believe he was pointing for the NYC marathon at the time. It was very much like what I've seen from Gabriele Rosa's runners, the easy days were 60 min am and pm, there was a Sunday 35k long run and 2 afternoon track sessions during the week, one was 20x1 min fast, one min jog and the other was 6x2000m with 2-3 min rest. I have no idea what he was doing when he was in Japan or training for track events.
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DavidD
Cool Runner |
posted Apr-18-2007 03:19 PM
quote:
Originally posted by fredurie:
Salazar is not a great example of overtraining through mileageSalazar was a man who was willing to give all he had in a workout or in a race up to the point of dieing. He later said
that it was asthma that caused his problems.
That was my point -- he overtrained (he was a "no-pain, no-gain kind of guy). He's a nice guy, who had a lot of talent. He got a lot of bad advice. But he caused his own demise. For a while he blamed things on anemia, then asthma, then all kinds of problems. He beat himself up, it's that simple. quote:
Originally posted by fredurie:
To say that it was
overtraining from mileage is ignorance.
Actually, my comments are first hand, and Bill Dillenger was a long time friend.
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