posted Dec-03-2006 11:27 PM            

I have a rather stupid question about the low HR training.... Does the 60-80% target aerobic zone mean average HR or peak HR? I've been running 3x30 min per week these days. My HR would peak at low 180s during the end of my run, but my average HR is in the mid 150s (which is about 80% of my maximum HR). Should I lower my pace even further to try to bring down the peak HR? I am already running really slow and feel like I can converse while running. Thanks!

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posted Dec-04-2006 12:06 AM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by newbie1012:
Hi everyone,

I have a rather stupid question about the low HR training.... Does the 60-80% target aerobic zone mean average HR or peak HR? I've been running 3x30 min per week these days. My HR would peak at low 180s during the end of my run, but my average HR is in the mid 150s (which is about 80% of my maximum HR). Should I lower my pace even further to try to bring down the peak HR? I am already running really slow and feel like I can converse while running. Thanks!

---

The idea is to not peak over your MAF or heart rate ceiling. Whether it's 180-age, or 70% MHR, you want to at most reach that limit, give or take 1-2 beats by the last mile of your run. It is average per MILE, not for the entire run. If you just took the average for your entire run, you could run the 1st 3rd at 110, the second third at 140, and the last third at 170, and average 140 for the run. That's not the idea here.

E.G. If your MAF is 140, then in the last mile you should average 141 or below (many) as the peak of your run. Try not to average per mile over that limit. Under is fine.

Using the "conversational" method is a bit loose. I can converse easily running a marathon, even a half-marathon--should I be training at those paces all the time? No. The heart-rate monitor takes the guesswork out of it. How conversational should I be? Well, a 70% MHR and below conversation thank you very much.

How slow is slow? Well, even this year, I had runs where I had to walk a little, and I had a few 14:00+ miles at the end. Yet, my race times would say that wouldn't be possible, and is a complete waste of time, according to most ingrained point of views out there.

If you're going to really do a low-HR training method, then know why you are doing it. Do it for a purpose. Stick to it. Then reap whatever benefits there may be. If you're running 80%, you're not doing "low" HR. But, there's nothing wrong with 80%. Stick to that if you want, and see what benefits you gain. It's the only way to find out these things.

Lastly, this method is not for those who can't take a hit on their ego or handle a bit of ostracizing and name-calling by those who have never tried this (yet seem to know all about it and how it can't possibly be the reason you're improving). If you REALLY commit to this, it might mean you will be running 15:00 miles for 3 months with walking. Maybe 6 months. If you've been running 10:00 in your training, and suddenly you're running 15:00 at 70-75% (peaking), it's a bit hard to take at first. But, if you really stick with it, build your mileage, and know why you are doing it--the slowness is temporary. I went from 12:00 miles to 9:00 peaking at 141 bpm between January and November. That's 25% improvement. Resulting in some nice improvements in race times.

So, good luck with whatever you choose. Keep experimenting.

--Jimmy

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posted Dec-04-2006 12:39 AM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by fjordrunner:
this thread has been quiet for a while, so maybe a question will bring it back to life.

on my next run i will hit 800 miles since i started again last april, and most of them have been MAF since last may. i ran two 5Ks this fall. i just signed up for my first half marathon in may 2007. i am confident i can do the distance (i ran 9 miles last summer, and 8 miles more recently), but wonder if there is any chance that i will come in under 3 hours - i know that sounds weird, but my average pace is in the 14 minute range, and i need better than that for 3 hours.

so, i'm not quite sure how to phrase this. if i keep training at MAF, starting with the 30 miles a week i run now, with my current long run at 8 miles, how do i plan this for an under 3 hour half marathon in may? my MAF has been 126 (by the age formula); as of tomorrow, when my age group changes (55!), does that mean that my MAF should be 125? and because i have hills, should i be aiming for the average of 125? i am running in the snow (and single digit temps) which has automatically slowed the pace, being careful about the ice (i have "studded" running shoes!), but i have several hills on every run, which i try to keep below my HRR, which is 133. then again, yesterday, i ran out of daylight and found myself pushing to get home in the dark - couldn't see my HRM and hit 152, with average HR of 129 - so it still wasn't that high, though the last mile was all above HRR.

any advice appreciated in my half-marathon planning,

---

You should do what I do when I run at night. I hire a high school cross country runner to run along side for 10.00 an hour. When I yell "LIGHT!", he or she puts on their flashlight, shines it on my watch, and reads my heart rate for me. Other than that they're not allowed to talk, chew gum, or listen to an Ipod. If they do talk, chew gum, or listen to an Ipod, then that's 1-3 demerits. 20 demerits and they're back to running with the other young sugar-burners after school, feeling deeply forlorn they blew a chance to play Alfred Pennyworth to a true-seeker of the inner land of Slow Twitchia, where not only do your muscles burn fat, but so does your brain. Yes, a fat high. Lipid visions that endure throughout the day, breaking the cerebellic wall, blubber bliss.

That being said...

I'm not sure when your half-marathon is, but you should make it a goal to get your long runs up to 14-17 miles (every other week) with a mid-week run of at least 8-10 miles, and when you get to about 4-5 weeks out, chuck in some tempo miles here and there at the end of your runs. What will be your tempo for the half-marathon? Well, I would say to try some tempo miles at about 86-90% MHR, and see what speed you're averaging, it'll give you a ballpark figure. That's about where I've hung out in a half-marathon, some go a little higher.

You'll develope your own race zones over time.

Good luck. Stick with it. Give yourself rest after real hard efforts.

You'll do great!

--Jimmy

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[This message has been edited by jjwaverly42 (edited Dec-04-2006).]

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posted Dec-04-2006 01:58 AM               

quote:

---

Originally posted by leitnerj:
Yeah, you'll have to experiment a bit to find out what a good
heart rate range is. There's no general answer. If you had
any idea what your lactate threshold or anaerobic threshold
was, I could get you a really good target. But, 20-40 beats
will be a great start - starting at 20 and increasing if you
feel good.[/B]

---

i'm not sure how to know my lactate or anaerobc threshold, but i do know that when i pushed absolutely everything at the end of the first race crossing the finish line, my hrm said 178.

I noticed you mentioned running with steel-studded shoes -
are you running with icebugs (which also happen to be
Swedish)?

i am indeed running in icebugs now and they have been great. i didn't know that i'd find a swedish solution when i asked at rei, but there they were . the first couple of runs felt a bit awkward in that they didn't "give" or "bounce" in the same way as my other shoes (mizunos), but the last run i let fly. i also gained confidence that i was not going to slip (i haven't).

------------------
susan

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posted Dec-04-2006 07:15 AM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by jjwaverly42:
It is average per MILE, not for the entire run

---

I'm glad this came up, because I always found this confusing. I was never sure whether to run at MAF or strictly below. I've always tried to run strictly below. My watch records heart rate every ten seconds so each time I hit the alarm, I get one sample over MAF. Anyway, I found the best I could do on a hilly route would something like 2 minutes over MAF out of 1h45min and I would average (over the run) 5-7 beats below MAF like this.

Looking at maffetone's book, he has this graph where you run right at MAF (after warm up and cool down). This seems to suggest trying to stay MAF +/- rather than < MAF.

OK, what's the point? The point is that there is a substantial difference between the distribution of heart rates when trying to keep 99% of the beat-to-beat intervals below MAF and trying to keep the average (over a mile or the whole run or whatever) below MAF. Over 10 minutes on hilly terrain there's probably a 3-5 bpm difference in the average and 99% percentile heart rate. Averaged over an hour, it might be 5-7 bpm. For clarity, we should say what we're talking about (as you did, Jimmy). This was confusing to me at first.

Of course the 180 - age formula isn't magic anyway, and you have to find what works for you, maybe 5 bpm doesn't matter (although 5 bpm is a lot). The last couple of runs, I've tried to spend some time at MAF, turning off my alarm and targeting a 145 split average for the middle portion.

Greg

[By the way, looking at your logs, I see you shin is still bothering you, Jesse. Heal up soon!]

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posted Dec-04-2006 08:48 AM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by jjwaverly42:
You should do what I do when I run at night. I hire a high school cross country runner to run along side for 10.00 an hour. When I yell "LIGHT!", he or she puts on their flashlight, shines it on my watch, and reads my heart rate for me. Other than that they're not allowed to talk, chew gum, or listen to an Ipod. If they do talk, chew gum, or listen to an Ipod, then that's 1-3 demerits. 20 demerits and they're back to running with the other young sugar-burners after school, feeling deeply forlorn they blew a chance to play Alfred Pennyworth to a true-seeker of the inner land of Slow Twitchia, where not only do your muscles burn fat, but so does your brain. Yes, a fat high. Lipid visions that endure throughout the day, breaking the cerebellic wall, blubber bliss.

That being said...

I'm not sure when your half-marathon is, but you should make it a goal to get your long runs up to 14-17 miles (every other week) with a mid-week run of at least 8-10 miles, and when you get to about 4-5 weeks out, chuck in some tempo miles here and there at the end of your runs. What will be your tempo for the half-marathon? Well, I would say to try some tempo miles at about 86-90% MHR, and see what speed you're averaging, it'll give you a ballpark figure. That's about where I've hung out in a half-marathon, some go a little higher.

You'll develope your own race zones over time.

Good luck. Stick with it. Give yourself rest after real hard efforts.

You'll do great!

--Jimmy

2006 Training
Profile

MAF training source:
Training for Endurance by Phil Maffetone

[This message has been edited by jjwaverly42 (edited Dec-04-2006).]

---

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posted Dec-05-2006 07:07 AM            

Although the distance was short (only 4 miles) my HR averaged nearly -7 bpm below MAF target and the pace was about 30 seconds per mile quicker. I found myself having to conciously work harder to elevate my HR in order to stay within the desired MAF range. I can not explain it, but something positive has/ is happened?

The temp has dropped significantly this week and are around 20s - 30s F. I question if colder weather can have such impact on aerobic performance?

What ever it is I intend to stick with the slow sub-MAF training goals and see what is happening.

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posted Dec-05-2006 08:03 AM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by labhiker:
For the past few weeks I have been questioning if all the efforts to keep my training routine at or below MAF limits were starting to pay off. I may have proved it this morning, logging my fastest training pace todate (@ subMAF HR).

Although the distance was short (only 4 miles) my HR averaged nearly -7 bpm below MAF target and the pace was about 30 seconds per mile quicker. I found myself having to conciously work harder to elevate my HR in order to stay within the desired MAF range. I can not explain it, but something positive has/ is happened?

The temp has dropped significantly this week and are around 20s - 30s F. I question if colder weather can have such impact on aerobic performance?

What ever it is I intend to stick with the slow sub-MAF training goals and see what is happening.

---

Cool, huh? conventional wisdom says you shouldn't be getting faster at any heart rate without speedwork, but yet you're getting faster while burning fat.

Cold weather doesn't effect your aerobic system, nor does hot weather.
Temperature effects your cooling system, which happens to be tied in with the heart rate (the head bone is connected to the hair bone, the hair bone's connected to the 7th chakra bone....). Hot weather will make your body work harder to cool itself, cold weather won't. When temperatures get over 70, my performance will drop. Just look at what happens at the Boston Marathon when the temperature gets up over 70. People drop like flies. The course record was set this year partially due to the 50 degree weather.

Keep going!

--Jimmy

2006 Training
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posted Dec-05-2006 03:58 PM               

Almost all of my running has been at night, about 2 hours after dinner which has given me about a 11 - 11:30 MAF pace. I've tried 3 times (1 on a TM) over the past 4 weeks to run at lunch. I find that my HR wants to be 10+ bpm higher and as a result, I can't even run at a 13 min/mi pace and keep MAF HR, but instead I end up walking periodically.

At first I thought it was due to the temps, but today was 37* when I left my house and I had the same problem.

Should I run more at lunch to "train" my body at this time of day?

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posted Dec-05-2006 05:47 PM               

quote:

---

Originally posted by jjwaverly42:
Cool, huh? conventional wisdom says you shouldn't be getting faster at any heart rate without speedwork, but yet you're getting faster while burning fat.

Cold weather doesn't effect your aerobic system, nor does hot weather.
Temperature effects your cooling system, which happens to be tied in with the heart rate (the head bone is connected to the hair bone, the hair bone's connected to the 7th chakra bone....). Hot weather will make your body work harder to cool itself, cold weather won't. When temperatures get over 70, my performance will drop. Just look at what happens at the Boston Marathon when the temperature gets up over 70. People drop like flies. The course record was set this year partially due to the 50 degree weather.

Keep going!

--Jimmy

---

I seem to be full of "facts" for which I can't put my finger on a source. Here's another one. 40-60 is the optimal temperature zone. Outside of that range, including below 40, your performance suffers. I'm not sure why w/the cold, but I'm sure I've seen a "converter."

Incidentally, I'm of the view that when the temperatures get higher than optimal then the HR zones need to be adjusted. For example, if it's 70 something and muggy, then I'll allow 4-5 bpm over my target.

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posted Dec-05-2006 06:00 PM               

quote:

---

Originally posted by labhiker:
For the past few weeks I have been questioning if all the efforts to keep my training routine at or below MAF limits were starting to pay off. I may have proved it this morning, logging my fastest training pace todate (@ subMAF HR).

Although the distance was short (only 4 miles) my HR averaged nearly -7 bpm below MAF target and the pace was about 30 seconds per mile quicker. I found myself having to conciously work harder to elevate my HR in order to stay within the desired MAF range. I can not explain it, but something positive has/ is happened?

The temp has dropped significantly this week and are around 20s - 30s F. I question if colder weather can have such impact on aerobic performance?

What ever it is I intend to stick with the slow sub-MAF training goals and see what is happening.

---

Great. Rule of thumb is that it takes 6 weeks or 150-200 miles to start seeing benefits.

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posted Dec-05-2006 06:27 PM            

Just recently I've gotten off a pace plateau (in a good way) and timed with that was sudden decrease in the higher early morning heart rates (they're only about +5bpm higher now). I can only imagine it had something to do with fitness level. I've been running since March, MAFfing since May, putting in 20-25miles/week. I've totalled about 600 miles since May with plateau drops every 250-300 miles.

For whatever reason it doesn't seem to have a significant impact on races which are almost always in the am. My heart rate is always obviously always higher during races, because, well, I'm racing, and usually hella nervous.

I'm not helpful, but at least know you're not (too) weird

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posted Dec-05-2006 08:05 PM               

I've heard this said before and find it strange. I run in the am at 5:30 and find any pm runs to be much higher HR's.

------------------
Clay

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posted Dec-05-2006 08:36 PM               

------------------
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posted Dec-05-2006 09:00 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by jjwaverly42:

If you're going to really do a low-HR training method, then know why you are doing it. Do it for a purpose. Stick to it. Then reap whatever benefits there may be. If you're running 80%, you're not doing "low" HR. But, there's nothing wrong with 80%. Stick to that if you want, and see what benefits you gain. It's the only way to find out these things.

--Jimmy

2006 Training
Profile

---

I'd just like to point out that Maffetone is not necessarily a low heart rate plan. For me MAF running is at 80% of my HRMax. HRMax =180 and MAF =144 at age 36. A 220-age yields a theoretical heart rate of 184, so it's not like I have a very low HRMax for my age, only a couple beats lower than average. In fact, I bet in an untrained condition I would be right at the average. Even following the Hadd method my slowest runs would be greater than 70% HRMax.

Southern Man

------------------
We're on a road to nowhere. Come on along.

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posted Dec-06-2006 02:29 AM               

Nov. 14. 2006
mile1. 11:19 135
mile2. 11:15 134
mile3. 11:14 134
mile4. 11:36 134
mile5. 11:27 134

Dec. 5. 2006
mile1: 10:49 133 needed to warm up some more, I guess
mile2: 9:48 135
mile3: 9:50 133
mile4: 10:03 134
mile5: 9:50 133

I think I am at a rapid improvement phase and will plateau after a couple of weeks...
Nothing else to report, just putting the miles into the bank, slowly, slowly...

------------------
jura

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posted Dec-06-2006 05:19 AM               

quote:

---

Originally posted by jura:

I think I am at a rapid improvement phase and will plateau after a couple of weeks...
Nothing else to report, just putting the miles into the bank, slowly, slowly...

---

Looks like you're doing great. I wouldn't necessarily assume that you
will peak out in a couple of weeks. I improved for several months
when I hit that point. You just never know how big your untapped
aerobic fuel tank is.

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posted Dec-06-2006 07:51 AM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by Southern Man:
I'd just like to point out that Maffetone is not necessarily a low heart rate plan. For me MAF running is at 80% of my HRMax. HRMax =180 and MAF =144 at age 36. A 220-age yields a theoretical heart rate of 184, so it's not like I have a very low HRMax for my age, only a couple beats lower than average. In fact, I bet in an untrained condition I would be right at the average. Even following the Hadd method my slowest runs would be greater than 70% HRMax.

Southern Man

---

Thanks, Southy. I stand corrected. I lost my Maffetone bearings and got a bit lost in the zones of MHR percentages. Ten lashes with a wet HRM strap in the town square by a sent proxy for Dr. Phil.

I am just curious. How did you figure out your MHR?
I use to think I was about 180 after using the HAdd track test. Then I wore my HRM in a race, and realized I was 197. That still might be a little low (at least that's what I tell my sweetie pie--want to keep her impressed).

--Jimmy

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posted Dec-06-2006 08:35 AM               

I've never been able to follow this thread.
But I have a simple and perhaps dumb question.

I'm training for the full marathon which is 45 days from now using Hal Higdon's Intermediate 2 program.

Last Sunday I ran my first 20 miler in 3:02:57 on a course which has some sharp slopes about 6 miles before the finish

My avg. HR was 151 and Max 162. My rest heart rate is usually 65 -71 accoring to my monitor.

I'm 42.

Is this normal, good or bad?

Would value your feedback.

Thanks

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posted Dec-06-2006 09:04 AM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by shirleynarsi:
leitnerj,

I've never been able to follow this thread.
But I have a simple and perhaps dumb question.

I'm training for the full marathon which is 45 days from now using Hal Higdon's Intermediate 2 program.

Last Sunday I ran my first 20 miler in 3:02:57 on a course which has some sharp slopes about 6 miles before the finish

My avg. HR was 151 and Max 162. My rest heart rate is usually 65 -71 accoring to my monitor.

I'm 42.

Is this normal, good or bad?

Would value your feedback.

Thanks

---

No Normal. No Good. No Bad. Just one foot in front of the other, one run at a time. You'll either hit a wall or not in the marathon. If you do, then you either started too fast or need more aerobic work. If you don't, then stay the course with the way you are training. Can't tell if 151-162 is too high or low since I don't know your age or MHR. But generally, that is slower than marathon pace. Looks like your on a good pace to break 4 hours by a very wide margin.

Good luck in your marathon.

--Jimmy

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posted Dec-06-2006 07:02 PM               

quote:

---

Originally posted by shirleynarsi:

Is this normal, good or bad?

Would value your feedback.

---

My response would be the same as Jimmy's. Specific
paces at arbitrary (or even non-arbitrary) heart rates are
in the eye of the beholder. If you finished your 20 miler
feeling good, like you could go much farther, then it's
great!

------------------
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posted Dec-06-2006 07:47 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by jjwaverly42:

I am just curious. How did you figure out your MHR?
I use to think I was about 180 after using the HAdd track test. Then I wore my HRM in a race, and realized I was 197. That still might be a little low (at least that's what I tell my sweetie pie--want to keep her impressed).

--Jimmy

---

I have done the HRMax a couple of ways, the Hadd track test and a VO2Max test on a treadmill in a lab. The same both times. I think it might be a couple of beats low, but not more than that. Maybe I'll wear my monitor in my next 5k.

Southern Man

------------------
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posted Dec-06-2006 08:36 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by Southern Man:
I have done the HRMax a couple of ways, the Hadd track test and a VO2Max test on a treadmill in a lab. The same both times. I think it might be a couple of beats low, but not more than that. Maybe I'll wear my monitor in my next 5k.

Southern Man

---

I saw my highest at the end of a marathon. I was properly warmed up by the end.

Run that last mile close to hard as you can, and the last half mile should be like your heart is going to leave your chest and you are going to die.
And if you do, you will be a running saint, and your reward will be 7 pairs of God-ReadyŽ shorts (ya know, the sin-free ones with the infinite pockets and authentic wool from the lamb of God). Only reserved for runners who gave it everything.

--Jimmy

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posted Dec-06-2006 09:06 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by jjwaverly42:
I saw my highest at the end of a marathon. I was properly warmed up by the end.

---

I can't hit my max at the end of a marathon. I think I'm too tired at that point. For 8k to 10 miles, I always hit 199 or 200 at the end (never run a 5K). Most I've seen at the end of a marathon is 194 and that was sprinting all out trying to make 4:00 (and missing by 3 seconds). I also did a Hadd-type test in the spring and only saw 190 (and thought I was going to lose my lunch). Sprint in at the end of a 5K and I think you'll hit it for sure.

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posted Dec-06-2006 10:16 PM               

quote:

---

Originally posted by shirleynarsi:
leitnerj,

I've never been able to follow this thread.
But I have a simple and perhaps dumb question.

I'm training for the full marathon which is 45 days from now using Hal Higdon's Intermediate 2 program.

Last Sunday I ran my first 20 miler in 3:02:57 on a course which has some sharp slopes about 6 miles before the finish

My avg. HR was 151 and Max 162. My rest heart rate is usually 65 -71 accoring to my monitor.

I'm 42.

Is this normal, good or bad?

Would value your feedback.

Thanks

---

Yes, it's normal, good or bad.

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