posted Nov-24-2006 06:40 AM               

quote:

---

Originally posted by jura:
Hi all,
this is nothing to do with the "science" of low HR training, just an observation. I just realized how lonely it gets sometimes to do this. You can't really run in a group because you have to keep your pace down based on the HR. Also, it takes a lot of focus to keep the HR in the best zone, I find myself zoning out and forgetting to look around and enjoy the outdoors. I feel like I am becoming a real hermit. Anyone else had this feeling? How do you fight it?

---

This is another artifact of your build-up period and the absolute
requirement for patience to tolerate this stuff. Assuming that mp3
players and so forth don't do it for you, I can just say one thing -
no matter how slow it makes you go, there's always someone slower
than you are. There's a friend up the road who is a good bit slower
than I am and I run a lot of long runs with her, many times averaging
20 beats below MAF. Then I encourage her to run a lot of long runs
with another friend of both of ours who is much slower than both of
us. After you put in your time on this and you "get there," you may
find that your training pace is faster than it was before you started
MAF. That happened to me about about 8 months. But, after race
season and/or the beginning of summer, it goes down again.

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posted Nov-24-2006 07:06 AM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by jura:
Hi all,
this is nothing to do with the "science" of low HR training, just an observation. I just realized how lonely it gets sometimes to do this. You can't really run in a group because you have to keep your pace down based on the HR. Also, it takes a lot of focus to keep the HR in the best zone, I find myself zoning out and forgetting to look around and enjoy the outdoors. I feel like I am becoming a real hermit. Anyone else had this feeling? How do you fight it?

---

Do you have an alarm on your HRM? I think it's a necessity for maffetone training. I just slow down when it beeps. If you run the same routes regularly you get a feel for where to slow down and speed up and then just forget about the watch. Now this is easier of course if you can do something that feels like running while under your MAF heart rate. In the summer, it's hard to enjoy your run when it's beeping at you all the time. It takes a while to lower your pace expectations.

I find I feel much more connected to the outdoors when running slowly. The fast runners look like they're isolated in their own heads, huffing and puffing along the trail.

The group running thing is definitely a problem. I like to run alone, so it hasn't bothered me. You'll just have to train enough to run the group's pace while under MAF

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posted Nov-24-2006 07:09 AM               

quote:

---

Originally posted by jura:
Hi all,
this is nothing to do with the "science" of low HR training, just an observation. I just realized how lonely it gets sometimes to do this. You can't really run in a group because you have to keep your pace down based on the HR. Also, it takes a lot of focus to keep the HR in the best zone, I find myself zoning out and forgetting to look around and enjoy the outdoors. I feel like I am becoming a real hermit. Anyone else had this feeling? How do you fight it?

---

since i've always been a slow runner, i've never had anyone with whom i can run anyway. i've started listening to podcasts and found it's extremely conducive to MAF running - i get lost in the programs (a combination of NPR and swedish radio) and just take it easy - i've been able to do two hours without even thinking about it, and the hills have even been MAF or lower. a few years ago i listened to books on tape while running, and i'm thinking about doing that again. meanwhile, i'm keeping up to date (or giggling at shows like "wait wait don't tell me").

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posted Nov-24-2006 07:31 AM               

Thanks for the reply, I had similar thoughts. Here's my dilemma: I usually only do 1 race a year. So if I do higher HR stuff the final 8 weeks, that leaves 10 months a year of nothing but Maf training.

Would you consider the ability to do Maf training 10 months a year a blessing? Or would you incorporate some higher HR stuff throughout the year even though you're not racing?

Oh, the difficult decisions we face in our lives! How do I get through the day with this burden???

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posted Nov-24-2006 08:04 AM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by jura:
Hi all,
this is nothing to do with the "science" of low HR training, just an observation. I just realized how lonely it gets sometimes to do this. You can't really run in a group because you have to keep your pace down based on the HR. Also, it takes a lot of focus to keep the HR in the best zone, I find myself zoning out and forgetting to look around and enjoy the outdoors. I feel like I am becoming a real hermit. Anyone else had this feeling? How do you fight it?

---

Don't fight it. I've trained with someone a few times, and it was nice, but I prefer being by myself. I think this serves me well in the marathon. I just realized I didn't talk to anyone the whole time at the Philly Marathon (except the the guy in the cow outfit on the side of the road. I went by him and went "Moo." He didn't reply. Great conversationalist, jerky cow. You just want everyone to look at you, but you can't offer a "moo" to a lonely marathon runner. May you get colic on your Shredded Wheat). I just focused on the run.

I do get lonely for other runners though. Even though I'm the webmaster for my running club (Rhode Island Road Runners), I miss them. So, during base training, I get out to a race once in awhile and run it socially at a training pace.

Others have invited me to run with them (they sense the force is strong in me), and I say yes BUT this is how I run, and I'm running about a 10:00 pace right now. Then they say "forget it" and go off and run their whole long run faster than race pace, and they crash and die the last 5 miles of the marathon, and I don't.

So, keep at it. It'll make you strong in so many ways (and the force does indeed get strong in you, I was able to pop a blister with my mind the other day).

--Jimmy

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posted Nov-24-2006 08:14 AM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by aharmer:
Jesse / Jimmy,

Thanks for the reply, I had similar thoughts. Here's my dilemma: I usually only do 1 race a year. So if I do higher HR stuff the final 8 weeks, that leaves 10 months a year of nothing but Maf training.

Would you consider the ability to do Maf training 10 months a year a blessing? Or would you incorporate some higher HR stuff throughout the year even though you're not racing?

Oh, the difficult decisions we face in our lives! How do I get through the day with this burden???

---

Everything I've done, and am doing, is a result of experimentation, an interest in stats, and making sure they have ample information on me for the historians, museum, and plaque for my entry into the lardass hall of fame.

I urge you to just keep experimenting.

Why only one race a year?

--Jimmy

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posted Nov-24-2006 08:28 AM            

quote:

---

Jura wrote: "I just realized how lonely it gets sometimes to do this. You can't really run in a group because you have to keep your pace down based on the HR."

---

I started my low HR in May and was terribly frustrated by the 10:30 min/mile paces (or slower) that I had to run to keep the HR down. But now I am sometimes (given the right weather conditions) running 9 minute miles in my low HR zone! I assure you most people in my running club can't handle 9 minute miles for many miles.

Hang in there Jura. You will reap the benefits.

Bill

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posted Nov-24-2006 08:52 AM            

Any thoughts on what may be the primary factor(s) for your MAF training pace drop by nearly 1:30 in just six months? During this period was all your training kept at 100% MAF or below? Did any weight loss come into play (5-10# s)?

Like Jura I have been thinking about how MAF training is a lonely road to travel and its hard to find others who will run at a 10:30 pace during LRs.

My MAF training seems to be stuck in a 10:15 - 11:00 + pace depending on the distance. I keep waiting to see the training pace drop to sub-10 mm so I can possibly run with others and have an aerobic pump which allows me to push through the wall. (Im tired of being asked how I can run so slow and why I do not speed up.)

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posted Nov-24-2006 09:02 AM            

quote:

---

Labhiker wrote: "Any thoughts on what may be the primary factor(s) for your MAF training pace drop by nearly 1:30 in just six months? During this period was all your training kept at 100% MAF or below? Did any weight loss come into play (5-10# s)?"

---

I began in April at about 25 to 30 miles per week and have slowly built up the mileage to where I am now at about 55 to 70 miles per week, depending. There is no way I could have managed this buildup running quicker. The mileage gives great endurance and the body gets used to it at lower HR's.

I don't MAF per se, but kept virtually all my miles at my easy HR pace. Recently I have added some tempos and intervals as I prepare for my first full marathon, but no more than once per week. All other miles are easy.

No weight loss really during this period of time. I lost 25 pounds between the time I started running in July of 2005 and February of 2006. But it seems like I am always eating something. I graze a lot.

Another factor is probably that I persisted with my training over the hot and humid Summer months (I live in S. Fla.). This HAD to make me stronger once the weather eased.

Bill

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[This message has been edited by breger1 (edited Nov-24-2006).]

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posted Nov-24-2006 09:09 AM               

quote:

---

Originally posted by aharmer:
Jesse / Jimmy,

Thanks for the reply, I had similar thoughts. Here's my dilemma: I usually only do 1 race a year. So if I do higher HR stuff the final 8 weeks, that leaves 10 months a year of nothing but Maf training.

Would you consider the ability to do Maf training 10 months a year a blessing? Or would you incorporate some higher HR stuff throughout the year even though you're not racing?

Oh, the difficult decisions we face in our lives! How do I get through the day with this burden???

---

Why only one per year? It's hard to put myself into your shoes
now, at least in this instance. It's funny - I can't even keep up
my marathon race pace for more than about 2 miles in a training
run - I don't know what it is. I have no desire or will to do any
intense training. I think in order to improve, you definitely need
some periodization in there, at least when you're talking about a
one year horizon. If you don't get it through doing races, then
some incorporation of more intense runs (I don't think you even
need 10% of your mileage though) will do it.

I say convince yourself to do more races, even if a few are not
all-out. Otherwise, sprinkle in a tempo run every other week
(I'm tending to think of my marathons as tempo runs).

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posted Nov-24-2006 09:12 AM               

quote:

---

Originally posted by labhiker:

Bill - congraulations on the great results.

Any thoughts on what may be the primary factor(s) for your MAF training pace drop by nearly 1:30 in just six months? During this period was all your training kept at 100% MAF or below? Did any weight loss come into play (5-10# s)?

Like Jura I have been thinking about how MAF training is a lonely road to travel and its hard to find others who will run at a 10:30 pace during LRs.

My MAF training seems to be stuck in a 10:15 - 11:00 + pace depending on the distance. I keep waiting to see the training pace drop to sub-10 mm so I can possibly run with others and have an aerobic pump which allows me to push through the wall. (Im tired of being asked how I can run so slow and why I do not speed up.)

---

Have you been able to find any time where you can get some faster
paces downhills (or are you stuck on dead flat courses)? Maybe it's
time to sprinkle in a few races just to see if you can spark something
up.

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posted Nov-24-2006 09:35 AM               

2005
8:39/144, 9:51/154, 9:38/156, 8:47/157, 11:05/162,
11:47/158, 10:39/154, 9:33/155, 9:33/152, 10:02/163,
10:07/160, 10:48/165, 9:56/162, 10:14/166, 13:24/156,
11:49/156, 8:48/163, 9/162, 8:54/163, 9:27/163,
9:03/163, 9:04/164, 10:10/160, 9:01/162, 9:16/164,
9:07/164, 9:04/164, 11:14/158, 9:30/160, 9:35/159,
10:48/155, 9:31/159, 9:38/160, 9:15/160, 13:19/150,
9:20/159, 9:47/160, 8:55/161, 11:54/155, 10:09/158,
10:03/158, 10:29/156, 10:52/ , 10:25/156, 11:11/152,
10:33/153, 11:19/151, 10:25/153, 10:29/153, 9:09/157,
3:53(8:31/mi)/166
8:28:52 avg HR 158

2006
8:42/XX, 10:07/156, 10:02/161, 9:41/158, 12:01/161,
11:49/162, 10:37/162, 9:49/159, 9:38/157, 10:46/160,
9:45/161, 10:25/163, 10:23/164, 10:26/164, 14:00/153,
10:44/160, 8:55/163, 9:02/163, 19:10(X)/161, 9:07/165,
9:03/165, 9:44/163, 9:09/164, 8:58/165, 9:45/163,
8:58/168, 9:47/162, 9:06/162, 9:00/162, 10:03/160,
9:05/162, 10:45/164, 8:54/165, 24:31(2+mi)/159,
9:22/163, 9:44/164, 11:08/157, 9:16/160, 9:33/161,
10:37/160, 9:02/162, 9:20/158, 9:19/160, 9:39/159,
9:21/161, 9:13/163, 9:14/164, 7:52/166
8:14:40 avg HR 162

Another thing to mention - don't read in to the numbers too much
at least within a particular race as there are a lot of different terrains
involved - the first 15.5 miles are a mix of rocky and ratty terrain
on the Appalachian trail with some extremely steep climbs on
roads, the next 26 miles are on a very flat, slightly inclined C&O
canal dirt towpath, and the last 8.5 miles or so are on rolling
country roads.

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posted Nov-24-2006 09:39 AM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by aharmer:
Jesse, Jimmy, or others:

Let's assume I'm going to adopt a program which has me running 90% of miles at Maff, 10% at faster speeds, closer to LT.

Here are the options I'm weighing, which would you incorporate if you were doing the 90/10?

1. One weekly run where entire run is done at higher HR.
2. Make the 10% the end of a weekly long run.
3. Run 10% of each run at the higher HR.
4. Perform a Hadd test each week. This scenario would have me running 4.5 miles above Maff per week, which would be pretty close to 10%.

I've got my preference, just wondering what others would do. Thanks!

---

This book at teamoregon.com is pretty interesting. It seems to be in the long slow distance camp. They have 17 weeks of basebuilding and 8 weeks of "sharpening" with one 6 mile run per week at marathon pace (plus warmup and cooldown) for the intermediate schedule. The schedules are very maff-like in the amount of faster running they do. Runners doing 40 mpw only get a MP run of 2 miles every other week and only during the sharpening phase. I'm thinking about trying this next time around.

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posted Nov-24-2006 09:47 AM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by gregw:
This book at teamoregon.com is pretty interesting. It seems to be in the long slow distance camp. They have 17 weeks of basebuilding and 8 weeks of "sharpening" with one 6 mile run per week at marathon pace (plus warmup and cooldown) for the intermediate schedule. The schedules are very maff-like in the amount of faster running they do. Runners doing 40 mpw only get a MP run of 2 miles every other week and only during the sharpening phase. I'm thinking about trying this next time around.

---

I have that book. Influenced my training, especially the hard/easy set-up.
--Jimmy

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posted Nov-24-2006 10:00 AM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by leitnerj:
On the topic of heart rates in races ...
8:39/144, 9:51/154, 9:38/156,...
2006.....
8:42/XX, .........

---

Congrats, Jesse. I've been so into MEEE that I forgot about the JFK.
8:14 is awesome. You've come a long way in the past few years. I think you're right about knowing how to race better. There are things you learn along the way (a.k.a. the eradication of rookie mistakes) that don't add to your time, and might shave off a bit. Wearing the HRM during the Sugarloaf marathon last year showed me that I can push into the 90% range down the stretch if I wish. I learned from you that sometime you just don't need to do that, even though you can. If you're only going to gain 30 or 40 seconds by the end, and you don't have a BQ or some mega-accomplishment in the balance, you can just keep the same effort, remained relaxed, and save yourself some unnecessary damage. When I was in the last 2-3 miles , I thought about you writing about that once, and I chose to not run the last few miles like it was a 5k, even though I could have. It wasn't necessary. That race is not going to be my last (knock on wood) and well, no need to make it so if you're already hurting.

Again, congratulations. You've done some amazing things the past few years. You pushing your own limits has a profound effect on those who are aware of it.

BTW, when is the Jesse action figure coming out. I think you should beat Karno to the punch. It's all marketing, right?

--Jimmy

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posted Nov-24-2006 10:05 AM               

quote:

---

Originally posted by jjwaverly42:

BTW, when is the Jesse action figure coming out. I think you should beat Karno to the punch. It's all marketing, right?

---

I'm sorry but they came available at 4 am this morning only
in select markets and they were sold out by 4:07 am. I understand
that due to the ruckus of people
trying to get them before they sold out that 42 people ended up
with severe ITB injuries and 3 with torn Achilles heels. Some
won't be running for at least 3 months (Taps playing in background).
I tried to play down the hype, but what can you do?

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posted Nov-24-2006 10:49 AM               

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posted Nov-24-2006 01:19 PM            

As my typical routes have a few hills it may be time to reverse the loops so I can spend longer time on the downhills, thereby increasing time for speed work?

Your suggestion about racing may be appropriate to introduce more speedwork. With the exception of a HM this fall, I have not entered too many races. Local 5Ks don't excite me as my whole training routine is based on increasing distance.

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posted Nov-24-2006 01:30 PM               

You made an interesting point about shorter races not exciting you. I'm the same way...Jesse and Jimmy asked why I don't race more, and I think that's the main reason. I have a relatively good idea of the time I'm capable of, which places me toward the front of the pack but never in the front. For this reason I find it difficult to get motivated to do shorter races.

For longer races, marathon and up, I get motivated but don't have enough time to prepare properly more than about once per year. Running races in less than optimal conditioning doesn't appeal to me either unfortunately. I know we're in the minority here, are we completely alone?

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posted Nov-24-2006 01:42 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by jjwaverly42:
Thanks, gang. Below is a final look at the marathon, and the year experimenting with MAF training.

[This message has been edited by jjwaverly42 (edited Nov-21-2006).]

---

Jimmy,
I have not posted in some time. I wanted to say GOOD JOB! Everyone is an experiment of one and you are very encouraging to me. Hopefully I can have similar success. Right now Boston is still a dream.
GOOD JOB!
kcy

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posted Nov-24-2006 01:52 PM            

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posted Nov-24-2006 03:45 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by jura:
Hi all,
this is nothing to do with the "science" of low HR training, just an observation. I just realized how lonely it gets sometimes to do this. You can't really run in a group because you have to keep your pace down based on the HR. I feel like I am becoming a real hermit. Anyone else had this feeling? How do you fight it?

---

Hi jura,
I am late with my encouragement but I still wanted to reply since this aspect of MAFing has troubled me too. I know this is why I quit low hr training in the fall of 05. I ran with a buddy two to three evenings per week and again on Sunday mornings. I knew it was helping me but my buddy and co-workers wanted to sign up for future races to keep them motivated. I finally gave in and quit after 6 to 8 weeks to keep running with them. My running went downhill from there and I knew I had to come back to this and try again or I would just give up running. It is lonely, but one thing I have learned is even if all of us on this thread got together for a MAF training run, I would still be lonely! It is so individual. I just keep thinking how stronger I will be. I already see the mileage I am able to sustain week after week, something I have never been able to do and my running buddies still can‘t do, btw.

I do feel like a hermit and I feel selfish in a way. I have to do this for me. I can’t do anything for my running friends. They have to come to their own conclusions. I am hoping that after nine months of MAFing, and we all come together at the end of May for a 10K, they will see the difference in me. Maybe they will want to give it a try. If not, they can ice and pop the Ibuprofen on a daily basis and take extra rest days and keep on with their hard runs.
The one really good thing that has come from my MAFing is that now my best buddy hubby of 23 years comes along with me! He even said something to the effect that he saw me leaving him in the dust with my running. Now that I have had to walk to stay under MAF, he is enjoying coming out with me. He is my biggest cheerleader and having his support really helps. The support on this board is invaluable too and I have come to appreciate it.

Golly, I am verbose! Notice the new found confidence? I whined and whimpered and sought help on week #10 of my MAFing. You all were very encouraging, but if I had just waited, I would have seen that I was in for a real breakthrough in week #11. I now have to work harder to get and keep my hr at MAF. I can do 7 miles with no drift at the end of those 7 miles, and my hr takes a nose dive when I slow down or go downhill or decrease the incline. Yup, it took almost three months for me to see any real change, and now it’s on for another 12 weeks. Bring on Valentine’s Day!

Congratulations to Jesse and Jimmy on both of your PR’s last weekend.

Happy holidays to all!
Bev

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posted Nov-24-2006 04:16 PM               

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posted Nov-24-2006 06:36 PM               

quote:

---

Originally posted by Beevee:
I whined and whimpered and sought help on week #10 of my MAFing. You all were very encouraging, but if I had just waited, I would have seen that I was in for a real breakthrough in week #11. I now have to work harder to get and keep my hr at MAF. I can do 7 miles with no drift at the end of those 7 miles, and my hr takes a nose dive when I slow down or go downhill or decrease the incline. Yup, it took almost three months for me to see any real change, and now it’s on for another 12 weeks. Bring on Valentine’s Day!
Bev

---

Congratulations on the great improvement! I am not there yet, but it is encouraging to know that it works for so many people! I am looking forward to the point where I have to work hard to keep my MAF hr . And no drift...
Thanks, Bev.

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posted Nov-24-2006 07:33 PM               

I know many of you, including myself, have questions about where the lactate threshold and aerobic threshold lie on the intensity spectrum. These two are often mistakenly used interchangeably. I've known they are not the same, but not how to differentiate.

I recently ran across a discussion on another board that gives guidelines on how to calculate both. I put several examples into the calculation and came up with these formulas. I'd like to hear how accurate these are for others.

Lactate Threshold = 5K race pace + 8% (meaning 8% slower)
Aerobic Threshold = Lactate Threshold + 8% (meaning 8% slower)
Marathon Pace should be relatively close to AT
Half-Marathon Pace should be about 5.5% faster than AT

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