posted Jun-28-2007 09:15 PM            

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posted Jun-28-2007 09:23 PM            

For comparison, I ran a 5k on Monday. Ran the same race last year. Last year I was coming off the Coxsackie Virus about 10 days before the race. This year, I just wasn't in shape. Last years time was 21:38, this year 22:17. I have a 4k in 10 days that I ran last year also. Last year was 16:09, this year I hope 16:40's.

One good thing about my 5k was that is was my first race using the HRM in 3 years. I got my HR up to 185 which I was using as my "max". It might be a few beats higher, but I'll let it be 185.

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posted Jun-28-2007 09:26 PM               

quote:

---

Originally posted by willamona:
LOL, It's ok Jesse, we forgive you for going too fast. I am very happy to see that you are up antat it again though. All is right with the world again.

---

That's good, because I intend to make it right, one heart beat
at a time. This thread is only the first step in my grand scheme!

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posted Jun-28-2007 09:30 PM               

quote:

---

Originally posted by dcv2002:

I took basically 96 days off.

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Man, you're stealing my thunder. I get kind of sensitive
about that. 96 is a lot better than 14. I'll still find a way
to claim that I'll be providing the superior test case.

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posted Jun-28-2007 09:51 PM               

quote:

---

Originally posted by leitnerj:
Ok, here's a relevant topic that comes up every few weeks,
inside and outside of this thread. The question,
"How much fitness do I lose if I take a couple of weeks off."
(Ok, so it's not always a couple - it's some random amount of
time.)
So, let me play that game and since I use heart rate, I can
play it somewhat quantitatively, keeping in mind that I'm still
an experiment of one (or have a few others here recently taken
exactly two weeks off, doing absolutely no exercise, due to
surgery?)

The last run I did prior to my surgery where my HR monitor
wasn't going haywire was a treadmill run on June 11:

7:55/126, 7:10/135, 7:09/140, 7:08/xx, 7:20/141,
7:24/141, 7:29/142, 7:30/143, (~.11 mile: 0:54/xx)

(The two xx's are miles where the monitor went ballistic).

Today was my first run since the day before my surgery on
June 15. Not a great comparison since it was outside in
88 degree high humidity on hilly roads, but it's the best I've
got (I'm usually about 1 min/mile different on treadmill
than on hilly roads):

9:41/140, 9:56/141, 10:24/144, 10:47/144, (~0.1 mile: 1:01/139)

I know what you're thinking, "he just had surgery, shouldn't be
be down at 138??" You're darn right! Tomorrow I'm hittin' the
treadmill to get my pace and HR under control. Let's see where
this goes. How long until I regain my pre-surgery fitness?
Will I be able to regain my presurgery fitness before my series
of fall races? How many times will this message post?

---

Hey Jesse,

Glad to hear you're back at it. Daniels book has a time-off calculator that allows you to revise your VDOT number based on time off. For 14 days my VDOT goes from 54 to 52.5. That accounts for about 2 minutes in a half-marathon and about 4 minutes in a full. Unless you've read Daniels book this information is completely meaningless...sorry.

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posted Jun-28-2007 10:17 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by aharmer:
Hey Jesse,

Glad to hear you're back at it. Daniels book has a time-off calculator that allows you to revise your VDOT number based on time off. For 14 days my VDOT goes from 54 to 52.5. That accounts for about 2 minutes in a half-marathon and about 4 minutes in a full. Unless you've read Daniels book this information is completely meaningless...sorry.

---

I've read Daniel's book and VDOT is still meaningless.

Jesse,

Welcome back to your running feet, treadmill, and roads. May you regain your oil-processing mighty quickly. At least your still in the 10:00's. And you better take those 5 beats off for surgery. There has to be a certain integrity in my personal "local" heroes, that includes properlly running sinuses--you've got that fixed, so the picture I have of you running The Naked Double Marathon For The Intergration Of The Uncircumcised And The Snipped is back on the wall.

Slugging away at 129 and below

-Jimmy
Age 46

Jog Log
zzzzzzz

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posted Jun-28-2007 10:41 PM            

I ask this because I see how many people say you just won't really good results on 20-25 miles/week. But it sure seems like the mileage isn't as important as time. I'm on about 30 miles per week now, and as a married father of 2 (along with a full time job), the only way I'm going to put more miles in is to run faster. But I won't be running more hours, only miles. This seems odd to me.

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posted Jun-28-2007 11:36 PM            

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Low Heart Rate Training FAQ Because many have asked...
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posted Jun-29-2007 07:28 AM               

quote:

---

Originally posted by NoleInTraining:
I see quite a bit where the suggestion to improve the result of LHR training is to put in more miles. But isn't time a more important factor here? For example (a simple one at that): If runner A runs 8:00 min/mile at MAF for 40 miles per week and runner B runs 16:00 min/mile at MAF for 25 miles per week, isn't runner B getting a better "Aerobic" workout? Runner A is putting in 5 hours & 20 minutes per week. Runner B is going for 6 hours & 16 minutes per week. Assuming I've done the math right, shouldn't Runner B be getting a great aerobic workout? Surely with all other things being equal (which I know they seldom are) Runner B would be showing better results then Runner A.

I ask this because I see how many people say you just won't really good results on 20-25 miles/week. But it sure seems like the mileage isn't as important as time. I'm on about 30 miles per week now, and as a married father of 2 (along with a full time job), the only way I'm going to put more miles in is to run faster. But I won't be running more hours, only miles. This seems odd to me.

---

I can't even fathom the idea of "running" a 16-minute mile, but I agree with your point. 8 hrs at 75% mhr is better than 6 hrs at 75% mhr.

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posted Jun-29-2007 07:54 AM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by leitnerj:
Man, you're stealing my thunder. I get kind of sensitive
about that. 96 is a lot better than 14. I'll still find a way
to claim that I'll be providing the superior test case.

---

Rofl. You aren't still on meds are you, Jesse?

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posted Jun-29-2007 09:00 AM            

AM 85 minutes slow, HR 90 to 98, 57F

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posted Jun-29-2007 10:04 AM            

[This message has been edited by NoleInTraining (edited Jun-29-2007).]

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posted Jun-29-2007 10:07 AM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by martinjames:
I can't even fathom the idea of "running" a 16-minute mile, but I agree with your point. 8 hrs at 75% mhr is better than 6 hrs at 75% mhr.

---

I do agree with you, but I wanted to make it a really easy example to ease the math.

Also, I've seen several people claim to need to run 14-15 mm to stay at or below MAF.

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posted Jun-29-2007 11:16 AM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by fredurie:
Friday

AM 85 minutes slow, HR 90 to 98, 57F

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I love these reports, Fredurie.

"AM 2 hours slow, HR 45-55. I listened to Perry Como on my Ipod and slept while I ran..."

LOL

--Jimmy

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posted Jun-29-2007 11:36 AM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by fredurie:
Friday

AM 85 minutes slow, HR 90 to 98, 57F

---

Oh noes! You forgot to give your pace. You usually gives us a pace. Nice to see you popping in again. I do miss these.

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posted Jun-29-2007 06:14 PM               

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posted Jun-29-2007 08:35 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by NoleInTraining:
... I'm on about 30 miles per week now, and as a married father of 2 (along with a full time job), the only way I'm going to put more miles in is ...

---

Well, when I was a married father of 2, both kids living at home, along with a full time job (55+ hrs/wk) this seemed to work for me:

MWF 10% weekly total, real easy (each day),
TuTh 20% weekly total, comfortable to medium pace,
Sa or Su 30% weekly total, easy to comfortable pace.

The "total" there could be either mileage or time... I used mileage at first and then time. Here's one that was no problem to do:
MWF 7 miles easy, TuTh 14 miles medium, Sa 21 miles.
A real simple way to get a 70 mile week.

A schedule which I came to prefer was:
MWF up@5:00 road by 5:30, 1 1/2 hours easy,
TuTh up @4:30 road by 5:00, 2 hours medium,
Sa or Su 4 hours enjoyable (usually trails in park.)

Granted, that's 12 1/2 hours, but during the week I was always home by 7:00 AM to get ready for work and have breakfast. When to time the weekend run was flexible.

Anyway, it's all just something to consider. Have the running gear ready and hit the road early.

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posted Jun-29-2007 08:52 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by slowgino:
[B] A schedule which I came to prefer was:
MWF up@5:00 road by 5:30, 1 1/2 hours easy,
TuTh up @4:30 road by 5:00, 2 hours medium,
Sa or Su 4 hours enjoyable (usually trails in park.)
B]

---

Oh, I forgot to mention... in miles that schedule was maybe
MWF 10 miles
TuTh 16 miles
Sa or Su 27-28 miles
None of this mileage was "hard", and the schedule wasn't cast in concrete. Take an easy week once in a while...

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posted Jun-29-2007 09:18 PM               

quote:

---

Originally posted by NoleInTraining:
I'm on about 30 miles per week now, and as a married father of 2 (along with a full time job), the only way I'm going to put more miles in is to run faster. But I won't be running more hours, only miles. This seems odd to me.

---

It's always up to you and no one else how fast you run. Nothing
wrong with running all of your miles to greatest of your ability if
that's what you want to do. I will say this. I am also a married
father of two. I work 45-55 hours per week, commute to and from
work 35-45 minutes each way. I am an associate editor of an
engineering journal that I can (legally) only work on at home in
my own time. It occupies anywhere from 8-15 hours per week.
I do all taxes and take care of all financial matters, fix-it-ups and
such for our house.
My kids play travel soccer, travel swim team, and travel cheerleading,
for now. My wife is the manager of the local swim team, which means
I am a frequent volunteer as I am in all of the other kids' activities.
I spend way too much time on coolrunning.
My typical weekly exercise is 19-23 hours. 90-95% of my training is
done while everyone is asleep or in some sort of event, so my training
does not impact family time. The only thing I do at all that impacts family time is all of the races I run, but at least I try to turn many of them
into family vacations. The only things I don't have time for are
sitting around watching sporting events or going out for beers with
the boys. Point: if you really want to, you can fit in
pretty much anything you want, any amount of training. I don't say
this to be the least bit negative, just to give people something to think
about.

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posted Jun-29-2007 09:23 PM               

quote:

---

Originally posted by Docster:
Rofl. You aren't still on meds are you, Jesse?

---

There's probably a bit of lingering hydrocodone (Vicadin)
influencing my behavior.

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posted Jun-30-2007 08:25 AM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by leitnerj:
.
The unfortunate paradox that affects many is that someone
who can run a decent pace at a heart rate far lower than any
recommended MAF value can probably run 50% or more
of his/her mileage at far above that MAF value and still
see significant aerobic benefit. For someone that can't even
run anywhere near his/her speed capability at MAF, the
higher heart rate stuff will probably interfere with the aerobic
development. The bottom line is that if you can't run a decent
pace at a low heart rate, then you need some serious aerobic
work! For most people that will mean spending a lot of time
training at a low heart rate. Back in my early development
in this form of training, anything above MAF at all for a few
miles would set me back. However (at least prior to my
surgery), in the last 6 months or so, none of my races have
set me back at all.

---

Your post is in line with some questions I've had in my head lately. Please let me know your thoughts on these 2 examples (my wife and I).

ME: I am on week 7 of 100% MAF-ing. Because I have never really built my aerobic system and want to add miles, I intend to stick to purely MAF for another 5 weeks at a minimum. I have been doing half my "miles" on the elliptical due to ITBS, which is finally going away. Anyway, I ran a 5k earlier in the spring at a 7:12 pace, and my pace at MAF is 10:18. Do you have a feel for what my MAF pace should be before I add in some faster running?

MY WIFE: My wife has run 4 marathons in the past year. She added in LHR elliptical 3 times/week before her sping marathon and had a nice PR/BQ (her first 3 marathons were "bonks" likely due to all fast training). She is currently doing her long and medium-long runs each week at or below MAF, LHR ellipical 3 times/week, but she is doing some speed-type work twice/week with a class she signed up for. She is making great improvements at MAF (11:15 pace to 9:30 pace in about 6 weeks), and a 20 sec PR in her latest 5k, so I keep telling her to keep doing what she's doing if she's making those improvements. Note that her 5k pace is around a 7:20 and her marathon pace is around a 8:20. Finally- my questions.

1. My wife's speed class ends today and she is not sure if she wants to spend the rest of her basebuilding time before her fall marathon doing 100% MAF or if she should add some faster running. I've been telling her that it probably does not matter either way- as long as she does mostly LHR training, feels fresh and is not injured, it wouldn't hurt (and might help) to keep 10% of her miles as speedwork. Any opinions?

2. After my wife's fall marathon, she wants to do all MAF training for a bit as basebuilding for Boston. She is asking me how long she should do it- and my guess has been 8 weeks for 100% MAF. She already has good aerobic conditioning- so I figure 4 weeks easy running post-marathon for recovery and another 4 weeks to have her aerobic conditioning primed again is all she'd really need. Any advice you have that I can give my wife - as far as how long someone like her should schedule to do 100% MAF.

[This message has been edited by Ace8 (edited Jun-30-2007).]

[This message has been edited by Ace8 (edited Jun-30-2007).]

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posted Jun-30-2007 11:46 AM               

1. you are stagnating and although you are following all of the
recommendations, your pace at MAF stays about the same
in equal environments and weather.

2. you just really get the urge to throw in some more intense
runs.

3. your target race is coming up and you really feel that some
more core speed needs developing and this is the right time.

You just want to make sure that 2 or 3 are not just cop-outs.
I had a lot of plans to add more intense running, but the progress
I was making without anything intense, other than periodic races,
was far more than I had ever expected or even hoped for. Hence,
I have just kept going with the same thing as I will until something
stops working.

For your wife:

I think she's on target and I feel your assertion in (1) below is
correct. It sounds like she has a solid aerobic base so adding
in speedwork at about 10% of volume should really help the
turnover and running economy with possibly little or no
negative impact on the base. Fortunately, she should have
plenty of feedback from her runs to tell her if that's indeed
the case! This is one place where weekly heading checks
can be useful. On item (2), 8 weeks is a great target number.
Given her apparent success with what she's been doing, it's
probably a great time to go back to the chopping block after
that point. Of course,
my inner belief is that one should go as far he/she can with the
low stuff until the improvement tapers off. However, slightly
higher on my list is to continue with something that's working
well.

quote:

---

Originally posted by Ace8:
Your post is in line with some questions I've had in my head lately. Please let me know your thoughts on these 2 examples (my wife and I).

ME: I am on week 7 of 100% MAF-ing. Because I have never really built my aerobic system and want to add miles, I intend to stick to purely MAF for another 5 weeks at a minimum. I have been doing half my "miles" on the elliptical due to ITBS, which is finally going away. Anyway, I ran a 5k earlier in the spring at a 7:12 pace, and my pace at MAF is 10:18. Do you have a feel for what my MAF pace should be before I add in some faster running?

MY WIFE: My wife has run 4 marathons in the past year. She added in LHR elliptical 3 times/week before her sping marathon and had a nice PR/BQ (her first 3 marathons were "bonks" likely due to all fast training). She is currently doing her long and medium-long runs each week at or below MAF, LHR ellipical 3 times/week, but she is doing some speed-type work twice/week with a class she signed up for. She is making great improvements at MAF (11:15 pace to 9:30 pace in about 6 weeks), and a 20 sec PR in her latest 5k, so I keep telling her to keep doing what she's doing if she's making those improvements. Note that her 5k pace is around a 7:20 and her marathon pace is around a 8:20. Finally- my questions.

1. My wife's speed class ends today and she is not sure if she wants to spend the rest of her basebuilding time before her fall marathon doing 100% MAF or if she should add some faster running. I've been telling her that it probably does not matter either way- as long as she does mostly LHR training, feels fresh and is not injured, it wouldn't hurt (and might help) to keep 10% of her miles as speedwork. Any opinions?

2. After my wife's fall marathon, she wants to do all MAF training for a bit as basebuilding for Boston. She is asking me how long she should do it- and my guess has been 8 weeks for 100% MAF. She already has good aerobic conditioning- so I figure 4 weeks easy running post-marathon for recovery and another 4 weeks to have her aerobic conditioning primed again is all she'd really need. Any advice you have that I can give my wife - as far as how long someone like her should schedule to do 100% MAF.

[This message has been edited by Ace8 (edited Jun-30-2007).]

[This message has been edited by Ace8 (edited Jun-30-2007).]

---

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posted Jul-01-2007 08:23 AM            

[This message has been edited by Ace8 (edited Jul-01-2007).]

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