posted Jun-21-2007 12:56 PM               

quote:

---

Originally posted by bluelake:
Hi all. I've been lingering around reading this thread off an on with a curiosity about LHR training. I'm a 49yo F, was basically sedentary until about 18 mo ago. I started walking and built up to about 25mpw. I then completed C25K about 3 weeks ago. I am wondering if LHR training is for me. I have been losing weight slowly and consistently for 2 1/2 yr, but recently hit a plateau. I read that LHR training burns more fat. I also see myself as more of an endurance runner than sprinter. I'm currently running about 20mpw and walking another 4-5. I have a Garmin and played around with the HR zone this week. I feel like I'm cheating! According to the 180-age, my MHR would be 131. In this heat and humidity, I can only jog a short distance before hitting it. I feel fine and enjoy the pace, but is it doing me any good? Should I wait until I have more mpw? How do I know the optimum # days/mi for me? My goal now is to lose fat and increase fitness. I am restricting calories as well.
Any insight from you experienced runners will be appreciated.

---

Congrats on the progress you've been making! keep it up!
Low heart rate training does not burn more fat. You use a higher
percentage of fat for fuel vs glycogen for a given distance run.
However, a calorie is a calorie, whether it comes from fat or
glycogen, and they both end up as fat on the body. If low HR
training enables you to run more miles without injury and perhaps
prods you into eating less calories, then it will help you burn more
fat. Everyone is an experiment of one so no one here can give
you the optimum # of days or training regimen for you. The more
miles you run, the more calories you burn and if running more doesn't
cause you to eat at a lower calorie deficit (double negative - sorry),
then you will lose more weight. My feeling is that to really reap
the benefits of this approach, one should be running at least about
25 miles per week. However, 20 is probably close enough. Whether
you really need to worry about it or not, well, you might just think
about the stuff in the beginning of the FAQ and see if any of it
applies to you. Good luck and feel free to join the discussion to
any extent you like. Hopefully you'll get some useful information.

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posted Jun-21-2007 01:35 PM            

What are peoples opinions of racing during the base period or any other anaerobic activity. I don't think i could go without racing for 3-6 months.
Would it matter a great deal if using the 80/20 rule i did aerobic stuff 80% of the time (though in actuality it would be at least 90%).
Is one race a month or twice a month too much?

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posted Jun-21-2007 01:44 PM            

What are peoples opinions of racing during the base period or any other anaerobic activity. I don't think i could go without racing for 3-6 months.
Would it matter a great deal if using the 80/20 rule i did aerobic stuff 80% of the time (though in actuality it would be at least 90%).
Is one race a month or twice a month too much?

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posted Jun-21-2007 01:47 PM               

quote:

---

Originally posted by stormywaters:

Those were my splits run went ok but last few splits was harder to keep under 146 (HR peaked at 153) but surprised HR didn't slow that much
I take it from memory with this type of training you ca see a noticeable difference in 6 weeks Is this right

I know i'm slow, but at least i can get quicker

---

I'd say that you've got the best data for yourself since you've tried
before. One thing that's consistent, is that everyone is unique in
this regard. If you have lost all of aerobic gains you previously
had achieved, it is highly likely that you will rebuild more quickly
than you did the first time if you run the same mileage. I've noticed
with myself that each time I rebuild the base, it happens much
more quickly than the previous. In a week will be a great test for
me since I will have done absolutely nothing at all for 2 weeks or
more before starting up again.

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posted Jun-21-2007 01:49 PM            

What are peoples opinions of racing during the base period or any other anaerobic activity. I don't think i could go without racing for 3-6 months.
Would it matter a great deal if using the 80/20 rule i did aerobic stuff 80% of the time (though in actuality it would be at least 90%).
Is one race a month or twice a month too much?

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posted Jun-21-2007 01:49 PM               

quote:

---

Originally posted by stormywaters:
Another question found this link
http://www.rrca.org/resources/articles/slowdown.html

What are peoples opinions of racing during the base period or any other anaerobic activity. I don't think i could go without racing for 3-6 months.
Would it matter a great deal if using the 80/20 rule i did aerobic stuff 80% of the time (though in actuality it would be at least 90%).
Is one race a month or twice a month too much?

---

Give it a try. My guess is that if you are already starting out with
aerobic fitness, squeezing in 10-20% of high end stuff shouldn't
have much negative effect. If you are starting with poor aerobic
fitness, then it will most likely hinder your progress.

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posted Jun-21-2007 01:59 PM            

What are peoples opinions of racing during the base period or any other anaerobic activity. I don't think i could go without racing for 3-6 months.
Would it matter a great deal if using the 80/20 rule i did aerobic stuff 80% of the time (though in actuality it would be at least 90%).
Is one race a month or twice a month too much?

Also why the 180-age formula, what happens to someone who has a higher MHR than another, same age, same fitness when you translate their Maf HR into WHR there will be a difference

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posted Jun-21-2007 02:04 PM            

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posted Jun-21-2007 02:24 PM               

quote:

---

Originally posted by stormywaters:

Also why the 180-age formula, what happens to someone who has a higher MHR than another, same age, same fitness when you translate their Maf HR into WHR there will be a difference

---

I'm not sure what WHR is, but you may want to look through the
FAQ (and in fact, this has been discussed in a string of recent
posts as well).

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posted Jun-21-2007 11:37 PM            

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posted Jun-22-2007 12:05 AM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by jjwaverly42:
Wicked Hot Rump

---

My lovely lady lumps
in the back and in the front

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posted Jun-22-2007 12:06 AM            

New to the forum. You can find out lots about me here at my training waffle thread in another part of this forum

http://www.coolrunning.com/forums/Forum8/HTML/010291.shtml

Started back running 2 and a bit months ago, and have converetd to 100% (pretty close apart from the odd 5-10k race) base building 4 days ago after 8 years of pretty much slob material.

Finding the pace extreemly slow 11min + miles... was training 9-12km steady (but quite hard) runs around 8 miles before I started. 3 min from what it seems isnt unreasonable. But actually RUNNING at 11min miles I find hard (its more like a fast walk with a running motion)

In the other thread are my 1st MAF test values... but I will post them here to to get some comments from MAF people.

MAF – warmed up 15 min first – steady HR 145-155
Mile 1 11:11 min/mile 151 avg HR
Mile 2 12:28 154
Mile 3 12:39 152
Mile 4 12:08 152
Mile 5 11:49 152
Mile 6 11:39 152
Mile 7 11:30 152

Interesting, slowed down as expected then got a LOT faster. Nothing changed on the run really... just aiming to keep my HR under 155 (starts beeping at me at 155 - then I slow a bit or change breathing) ... 6 min (out of 90) above 155, not once over 159.

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posted Jun-22-2007 12:40 AM            

Seti@home is neat and stuff. Been in on that for longer than I like to admit.

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posted Jun-22-2007 05:54 AM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by NoVelcroShoes:
Well hello Basebuilding thread.

New to the forum. You can find out lots about me here at my training waffle thread in another part of this forum

http://www.coolrunning.com/forums/Forum8/HTML/010291.shtml

Started back running 2 and a bit months ago, and have converetd to 100% (pretty close apart from the odd 5-10k race) base building 4 days ago after 8 years of pretty much slob material.

Finding the pace extreemly slow 11min + miles... was training 9-12km steady (but quite hard) runs around 8 miles before I started. 3 min from what it seems isnt unreasonable. But actually RUNNING at 11min miles I find hard (its more like a fast walk with a running motion)

In the other thread are my 1st MAF test values... but I will post them here to to get some comments from MAF people.

MAF – warmed up 15 min first – steady HR 145-155
Mile 1 11:11 min/mile 151 avg HR
Mile 2 12:28 154
Mile 3 12:39 152
Mile 4 12:08 152
Mile 5 11:49 152
Mile 6 11:39 152
Mile 7 11:30 152

Interesting, slowed down as expected then got a LOT faster. Nothing changed on the run really... just aiming to keep my HR under 155 (starts beeping at me at 155 - then I slow a bit or change breathing) ... 6 min (out of 90) above 155, not once over 159.

---

Welcome. First of all, how did you calculate your MAF? 180-age puts you at 146, although I'm doing the math in my head, but I did do well in 180- Class in school.

Your paces aren't that bad. I'm currently running 12-13:00. Slow, but temporary.

I'm not sure why you got faster keeping at 152. Maffetone mentions that in these cases it has something to do about not being warm-up up enough before the test starts. Or if you did it outside, maybe there was less wind or it was slightly downhill on the last two miles.

I do my MAF tests on the treadmill after a 2-mile warm-up. The TM takes wind and varying incline out of the picture. I always slow down from mile 1 - 5. Though by the end of the base period, the slowing is less.

Keep going!

--Jimmy

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posted Jun-22-2007 06:56 AM               

Help! Do I need to throw the 205 away, bite the bullet and get the 305, or this there another lower cost (but accurate)alternative?

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posted Jun-22-2007 07:17 AM               

quote:

---

Originally posted by tommy14277:
Oh how I wish this thread, but more important.. Believing that the principal of Maff, could have come into my life BEFORE I bought the the Garmin 205 instead the 305!

Help! Do I need to throw the 205 away, bite the bullet and get the 305, or this there another lower cost (but accurate)alternative?

---

I wouldn't be surprised if you gave Garmin a call and they cut you
some sort of a deal! Give it a try.

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posted Jun-22-2007 07:27 AM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by jjwaverly42:
[B] Welcome. First of all, how did you calculate your MAF? 180-age puts you at 146, although I'm doing the math in my head, but I did do well in 180- Class in school.

I'm not sure why you got faster keeping at 152. Maffetone mentions that in these cases it has something to do about not being warm-up up enough before the test starts. Or if you did it outside, maybe there was less wind or it was slightly downhill on the last two miles.

I do my MAF tests on the treadmill after a 2-mile warm-up. The TM takes wind and varying incline out of the picture. I always slow down from mile 1 - 5. Though by the end of the base period, the slowing is less.

Keep going!

--Jimmy

---

Thanks Jimmy for the kind words.

Yes willamona I am a newbie! (well to this amount of running anyway). I have been involved with SETI since 2000, and with BOINC since it started in alpha phase at Berkeley university... its my other passion.

And I know my calculated MAF is 145. I have spent the last month looking around all the aerobic running doctrines, as well as all the other numberous training styles out there. After that I have spent the last couple of weeks trying things out.

I ran 3 90 min runs at 145 celing (HRM beeping insessintly as soon as hits 146) ... and that extra 7 bpm from an average of 145 to 152 adds over 2:30 to my mile... making it around 13:30. I just dont enjoy running at 13:30 miles.

Adding those extra bpm in no way affects my actual "feeling" on the run. No more breathless, no deeper breathing, no extra pain in any part of legs, muscles or otherwise. In fact I have run 90 - 105 minutes every day for the last 4 days... always finishing like I could go the whole thing again... always having no lactic type pain or sorness in my muscles that night... and feeling refreshed and ready to go the next day.

If at 152-155 I was getting anaerobic I should be feeling it on the run, in recovery, or the next day when starting up again. It just doesnt happen to me at this stage of my running (and yes it is so early day).

As my fitness improves I fully expect my HR to fall with this level of exertion, and I probably will drift my HR that I use back towards a traditional MAF. For now I am happy with running comfortably between 145-155 instead of 135-145.

The course is pretty much flat. I actually (as boring as it sounds) run around a 600m football oval... over and over again. Some may think that sounds crazy... I actually like it. The laps ticking up over time. Lots of people come out in the afternoons with their dogs and let them run around, a few even jog at times... its just pleasant to be outdoors.

Anyway... back to life things here... pushed out another 105 minutes today ... again averaging around the 11:45 mark

---

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posted Jun-22-2007 09:15 AM            

Just curious- Lately I've been doing most of my runs at a park with a 1.25 mile soft gravel track, and it isn't exactly flat. There are 2 4-5 ft. steep valleys on the track, plus 2 long and very gradual uphill / downhill sections. I know I need to mix in some runs on a harder surface. Last night we went to another park with a concrete track. I felt faster, plus my HR was lower than normal. It's definitely not as easy on the feet and legs though!

[This message has been edited by RacingThoughts (edited Jun-22-2007).]

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posted Jun-22-2007 09:56 AM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by NoVelcroShoes:
Thanks Jimmy for the kind words.

Yes willamona I am a newbie! (well to this amount of running anyway). I have been involved with SETI since 2000, and with BOINC since it started in alpha phase at Berkeley university... its my other passion.

And I know my calculated MAF is 145. I have spent the last month looking around all the aerobic running doctrines, as well as all the other numberous training styles out there. After that I have spent the last couple of weeks trying things out.

I ran 3 90 min runs at 145 celing (HRM beeping insessintly as soon as hits 146) ... and that extra 7 bpm from an average of 145 to 152 adds over 2:30 to my mile... making it around 13:30. I just dont enjoy running at 13:30 miles.

Adding those extra bpm in no way affects my actual "feeling" on the run. No more breathless, no deeper breathing, no extra pain in any part of legs, muscles or otherwise. In fact I have run 90 - 105 minutes every day for the last 4 days... always finishing like I could go the whole thing again... always having no lactic type pain or sorness in my muscles that night... and feeling refreshed and ready to go the next day.

If at 152-155 I was getting anaerobic I should be feeling it on the run, in recovery, or the next day when starting up again. It just doesnt happen to me at this stage of my running (and yes it is so early day).

As my fitness improves I fully expect my HR to fall with this level of exertion, and I probably will drift my HR that I use back towards a traditional MAF. For now I am happy with running comfortably between 145-155 instead of 135-145.

The course is pretty much flat. I actually (as boring as it sounds) run around a 600m football oval... over and over again. Some may think that sounds crazy... I actually like it. The laps ticking up over time. Lots of people come out in the afternoons with their dogs and let them run around, a few even jog at times... its just pleasant to be outdoors.

Anyway... back to life things here... pushed out another 105 minutes today ... again averaging around the 11:45 mark

---

---

I see. Your on the MAF+10 sanity program.
Enjoy. Come by the MAF-10 Institution and say hi
once in awhile. I like visitors. We can play Scrabble. Just don't use the word QAT, I don't like Q words that don't combine the Q with a U.
If you do, I'll give you the anti-Bingo, or what I personally like
to call the Ognib, which is -50 and the rack stuck up your nose,
with Bodyglide, of course. Maybe we can run down the grassy hill together and out to the MAF-10 Institute sign near the barbed-wire fence.
Don't mind my drool. It's getting better since I broke the 13:00 barrier.
Bring cookies.

--Jimmy

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posted Jun-22-2007 10:34 AM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by RacingThoughts:
Quick question, given the same amount of effort, will you generally be slower running on soft gravel/dirt tracks vs. concrete or asphalt? If that's true, then would your heart rate be higher while running on the gravel/dirt track at the same pace?

Just curious- Lately I've been doing most of my runs at a park with a 1.25 mile soft gravel track, and it isn't exactly flat. There are 2 4-5 ft. steep valleys on the track, plus 2 long and very gradual uphill / downhill sections. I know I need to mix in some runs on a harder surface. Last night we went to another park with a concrete track. I felt faster, plus my HR was lower than normal. It's definitely not as easy on the feet and legs though!

[This message has been edited by RacingThoughts (edited Jun-22-2007).]

---

Yes, and yes. I run on greenways a lot where it ranges from crushed rock, to lime, to boardwalk, to ashpalt path, and I would say I lose a good 10-15 seconds a mile on the lime and crushed rock, depending on how soft/slippery it is in spots, etc. It definitely slows me down at the same heart rate.

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posted Jun-23-2007 09:39 AM            

Last August I started with low HR training, coming off an injury etc. My aerobic base was not so good. Low HR training helped me build my mileage back up, slowly. I made pretty good progress for the first 3 months. Then I stagnated for about 2 months before abandoning strict low HR training in favor of a different approach. It took me 3 months of experimenting to finally devise an approach that worked.

The new approach was to essentially increase my usual/easy HR range from a ceiling of HR 140 up to HR 150. I started doing tempo runs and I kept increasing my weekly mileage. Over the last 4 months I've seen a lot of progress.

Start of MAF, Aug 2006
MAF: 140
Weekly mileage: 30 mpw
Fastest pace at MAF 140: 11:30 min/mile

End of strict MAF, Dec 2007
MAF: 140
Weekly mileage: 40 mpw
Fastest pace at MAF 140: 10:15 min/mile

Current: June 2007
Usual/easy training HR ceiling: 150
Weekly mileage: 55-75 mpw
Fastest pace at HR 140: 9:00 min/mile
Fastest pace at HR 150: 8:18 min/mile
Tempo paces from 6:00 to 8:00, from 5 to 15 miles

During my weekly tempo runs I've actually set new PRs: I've run a 20-minute 5K, a sub-43-minute 10K and a 1:38 half marathon. These times match up well with "race predictions", indicating I'm much more aerobically fit than before, when my times were awful. During these longer tempo runs I've never felt winded or out of breath; the limiting factor seems to be muscular endurance. My first attempt at a tempo was an 8:00 min/mile for 20 minutes. HR was 175. Today I can run an 8:00 pace with my HR 155-160, and I can maintain it for 2 hours.

Back in the summer of 2006, I recall trying to do "speedwork" and running a mere 800m at a 7:00 pace about killed me. Now I can run a 6:15 pace for 3 miles and not feel winded. That is the difference between having an aerobic base and wishing you had one. What a difference a year makes!

My perspective on MAF training: I think it's great for beginners, the injured, or those who need to build an aerobic base. I'm not convinced that one can just keep MAFing and reaping progress. I think after 3 months of MAF training that my body "outgrew" it and needed an additional challenge/stimulus. I attribute a lot of my progress to my tempo runs. I am convinced, though, that low HR training is great for building and maintaining a base, and the majority of my runs would probably be consistent with the MAF approach. I think, in the end, the best way to train is going to be different for everyone and we have to figure it out on our own.

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posted Jun-23-2007 09:52 AM               

quote:

---

Originally posted by Harper:

My perspective on MAF training: I think it's great for beginners, the injured, or those who need to build an aerobic base. I'm not convinced that one can just keep MAFing and reaping progress. I think after 3 months of MAF training that my body "outgrew" it and needed an additional challenge/stimulus. I attribute a lot of my progress to my tempo runs. I am convinced, though, that low HR training is great for building and maintaining a base, and the majority of my runs would probably be consistent with the MAF approach. I think, in the end, the best way to train is going to be different for everyone and we have to figure it out on our own.

---

I think you did exactly what basebuilding is intended to do - spend
your time and build your base, then move on to the training program
that suits your needs. It may be that you won't continue to improve
using MAF training all the time and that's probably the case if you
don't race regularly. However, I've been continuously knocking off
PRs for the last 2 years with absolutely no hard training runs. Not
just in long races, shorter ones as well. However,
I run a lot of races, mostly marathons and ultras. I use marathons
as my only form of speed work and I think it works quite well. I
still consider myself a beginning runner, so I probably still am in the
category that you're talking about. Even with 35+ marathons and ultras
in the last couple of years, I do believe that just hitting 4 years of
running from scratch still keeps me as a newbie! Very likely, if
I moved into a focused training program with speed work, tempos,
etc., I'd probably carve a few minutes off of my marathon time,
but it's interesting to see how far you can get it without doing a lick
of hard work in training. It's a dream for a lazy guy like me!

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posted Jun-23-2007 12:09 PM               

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posted Jun-23-2007 12:13 PM               

quote:

---

Originally posted by Long Run Nick:
Hey Jesse,
Medical update--8 days out from your sinus surgery. Also, are you allowed to pick your nose? Nick

---

That's about all I'm allowed to do! Actually, in all honesty, I'm feeling
great and this is the first time I've realized there's actually an air
passage on that side of my head. Two hamsters were removed from
my nose a couple of days ago and things feel great. I could easily
get myself running today, but I'll follow directions and wait out the
full 2 weeks. Looking forward to Friday, where I'll start out slowly
and begin the prep for the fall! Thanks for asking.

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posted Jun-23-2007 01:08 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by Harper:

My perspective on MAF training: I think it's great for beginners, the injured, or those who need to build an aerobic base. I'm not convinced that one can just keep MAFing and reaping progress. I think after 3 months of MAF training that my body "outgrew" it and needed an additional challenge/stimulus. I attribute a lot of my progress to my tempo runs. I am convinced, though, that low HR training is great for building and maintaining a base, and the majority of my runs would probably be consistent with the MAF approach. I think, in the end, the best way to train is going to be different for everyone and we have to figure it out on our own.

---

Congrats on your progress. Though it seems that you don't fully understand MAF training. It is not always running below MAF.

MAF Training includes tempo running, anaerobic work, and races. If you read Training For Endurance, he includes everything--when it's right. Mark Allen for years would do his sub-MAF base periods followed by periods that included races and up tempo training. He was no beginner, wasn't injured, and had base. The use of the MAF test will tell you when it's time to switch from one to the other. When your MAF's plateau or begin regressing in either part, then it's time to switch over.

I think to really see if it works or not is to commit to it fully for a few years. Then you can say for sure. Personally, I'm thinking long term these days, and not immediate. I'm preparing for next year and beyond.

Good luck. Wish you the best back in Normalville!

--Jimmy

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