posted Jun-19-2007 11:45 AM            

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posted Jun-19-2007 06:35 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by Docster:
Well, my first marathon was last February, and I was targeting a 3:39 or better. My MAFF pace (145 target) was about 9:30 at that time. I did, however, log quite a few miles. (60+ for 4 weeks until my marathon taper)

I ran a 3:34:46, with a negative half split by several minutes. So, I could have gone even faster.

I ran another marathon in much warmer temps, and ran a 3:27:50.

My MAF pace is now down to about 8:35-8:40, and I'm confident I can (er....I will!) BQ this fall (need a 7:30 pace) assuming my training goes well, etc.

I've found that if I can run one minute slower than MP at MAF, then so far I've had absolutely no problems maintaining MP. Of course, that won't be true for everyone, but it should for most I would think.

Others who MAF here and tackle marathons...what is your MAF pace and marathon pace, out of curiousity?

---

My MAF runs are at about 9:15-9:30 and I ran a 3:15 marathon.

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posted Jun-19-2007 07:51 PM            

My Maf as calulated is 148. I went on a 4 mile Maf run today with an average heart rate of 144. After that, I decided to find my max heart rate. The best I could do with 5 sprints of as much as I could muster was a hr of 172, the others peaked at 171.

The thing is, the last time I tried for a MHR, about a year ago, it was 192. Pre MAFing, all of my training runs would be in the 160's for heart rate.

I am 32 with no real injuries. I've been running 3-5 days a week with mileages from 20-35mpw for a little over a year, off and on the last decade. My first marathon was in April and I ran a 4:06:01.

What gives? Can I be sick and not know it? Weather was great, felt great except for a little nagging left calf pain.

Thanks!
p.s. Anyone know of a great sports doctor in the Toledo area?

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posted Jun-19-2007 09:38 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by 13squared:
Okay,

My Maf as calulated is 148. I went on a 4 mile Maf run today with an average heart rate of 144. After that, I decided to find my max heart rate. The best I could do with 5 sprints of as much as I could muster was a hr of 172, the others peaked at 171.

The thing is, the last time I tried for a MHR, about a year ago, it was 192. Pre MAFing, all of my training runs would be in the 160's for heart rate.

I am 32 with no real injuries. I've been running 3-5 days a week with mileages from 20-35mpw for a little over a year, off and on the last decade. My first marathon was in April and I ran a 4:06:01.

What gives? Can I be sick and not know it? Weather was great, felt great except for a little nagging left calf pain.

Thanks!
p.s. Anyone know of a great sports doctor in the Toledo area?

---

I takes a lot of warming up and then some hard miles, and then heart--about--to--come--out--of--your--nose sprinting to get near you MHR.
If you saw 192 last year, then go with that until you see a higher number.
Even if it was 5 beats higher, it won't make tooo much difference.

When you were runnning over 160, you were running over 83% MHR. Almost LT running.

Did you run the marathon on 32 miles per week?

The only person I know from Toledo is Klinger.

--Jimmy
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posted Jun-19-2007 11:08 PM            

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posted Jun-19-2007 11:36 PM               

quote:

---

Originally posted by Sparrowface:
I have tried this low HR training before with positive results. Am ready to give it another go. Just wondering what you guys and gals with experience and progress with this think the best way to do a run is. In the book, the author says to determine your maximum aerobic function (MAF), which will be your ceiling. Mine would be 137 (180-age). Then he says to make the lower part of the zone 10 beats lower, 127-137. Do you run closer to the 127 or the 137? Should I warm up to the 127 after a few miles then increment up to the 137 by the end, lets say 1 beat per mile higher, or keep the hr a little below the 137 the whole time, and slow down to keep under? How did you do your runs when you started, Jesse, and now? Once I'm clear on this, I'm going to give it a go. Thanx.

---

When I run outside it's always a bit different..sometimes I'm at my target HR after 1/4 mile and sometimes I never make it up there the entire run. On the TM I set it at a pace that takes me about 2 miles to get up close to my target number and then adjust the speed accordingly to keep the HR right at that number for the duration of the run. Sometimes I need to slow it down, other times I actually get to speed up in the middle of the run. When my TM runs take me 3+ miles to get up to the target number, that's when I know it's time to set the TM slightly faster from the beginning.

You just want to make sure that when you're done with a run the average HR is below your target Maff number. Good luck!

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posted Jun-20-2007 06:04 AM               

quote:

---

Originally posted by Sparrowface:
I have tried this low HR training before with positive results. Am ready to give it another go. Just wondering what you guys and gals with experience and progress with this think the best way to do a run is. In the book, the author says to determine your maximum aerobic function (MAF), which will be your ceiling. Mine would be 137 (180-age). Then he says to make the lower part of the zone 10 beats lower, 127-137. Do you run closer to the 127 or the 137? Should I warm up to the 127 after a few miles then increment up to the 137 by the end, lets say 1 beat per mile higher, or keep the hr a little below the 137 the whole time, and slow down to keep under? How did you do your runs when you started, Jesse, and now? Once I'm clear on this, I'm going to give it a go. Thanx.

---

Most everyone does this a bit differently. I've generally done most of
my running well below the MAF value. However, in the early days,
when my pace was atrocious at the low heart rates, I did whatever I
could to eke out a reasonable pace, so I stayed up at the ceiling.
Nowadays, it's not unusual for me to run at MAF-20 or MAF-25,
particularly if I'm running with a friend. When I start back running in
a week or two, I'm sure I'll be back at a reasonably slow pace, so
I'll probably be at MAF-10 (where I should be anyway having just
had surgery).

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posted Jun-20-2007 07:15 AM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by leitnerj:
Most everyone does this a bit differently. I've generally done most of
my running well below the MAF value. However, in the early days,
when my pace was atrocious at the low heart rates, I did whatever I
could to eke out a reasonable pace, so I stayed up at the ceiling.
Nowadays, it's not unusual for me to run at MAF-20 or MAF-25,
particularly if I'm running with a friend. When I start back running in
a week or two, I'm sure I'll be back at a reasonably slow pace, so
I'll probably be at MAF-10 (where I should be anyway having just
had surgery).

---

Thanx. When you say MAF-10, and you run e.g. 12 miles. Do you keep your HR at MAF-10, slowing down if need be, or do you make a zone of MAF-20 to MAF -10, and warm-up to the MAF-20, then just make sure you don't go over the -10? What happens to your HR and pace in a typical 10 to 12 miler or so? How do you structure the run?

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posted Jun-20-2007 07:35 AM            

I'm new at this, but I've approached runs in different ways.

Usually, I have a target HR in mind and adjust my pace as necessary. My weekday running routes are hilly, so this approach works well as it would not be possible to maintain a constant pace and stay below MAF.

On the weekend, I run my long runs on a flat course. This last weekend I settled into a pace where my HR was MAF-10. Over the course of 15 miles, I maintained pace and allowed my HR to climb. HR was relatively constant for the majority of the run, but began to tick up more and more at the end. I finished with my HR at MAF.

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posted Jun-20-2007 08:18 AM               

quote:

---

Originally posted by Sparrowface:
Thanx. When you say MAF-10, and you run e.g. 12 miles. Do you keep your HR at MAF-10, slowing down if need be, or do you make a zone of MAF-20 to MAF -10, and warm-up to the MAF-20, then just make sure you don't go over the -10? What happens to your HR and pace in a typical 10 to 12 miler or so? How do you structure the run?

---

In reality, I don't much thought into it. I don't worry about the
profile. When I'm running with a friend, I generally just run much
more slowly, when I'm by myself, sometimes I push up to the
limits. It's not really a conscientious thing for me anymore.
In either case, my heart rate is always a lot lower in the first mile
or two, whether it's a training run or race. Your best bet is just
to mix things up a bit. If your MAF place is slow enough to whether
it's mucking with your running gait, then stay at the high end for
a while, or put some time in on the treadmill. If it's a reasonably
comfortable pace, try different things on different days. Ultimately
when you're just starting out (or re-starting out as you're doing),
you should just do whatever it takes to keep you within the MAF
boundary and still maintain your sanity.

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posted Jun-20-2007 10:15 AM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by Sparrowface:
Thanx. When you say MAF-10, and you run e.g. 12 miles. Do you keep your HR at MAF-10, slowing down if need be, or do you make a zone of MAF-20 to MAF -10, and warm-up to the MAF-20, then just make sure you don't go over the -10? What happens to your HR and pace in a typical 10 to 12 miler or so? How do you structure the run?

---

This depends on the type of run for me. For my midweek long run (usually 10 to 12 miles) I start out 8 to 10 beats low. By the time I'm done, I'm usually close to MAF, if not at it.

For recovery runs, I'l stay 10 below, even on shorter runs. My last type of "pure" MAF run is after a warmup mile to push MAF the entire time, especially on the downhills. Inevitably up a few of the steep hills I'll drift to +5 or a bit higher, but these days I don't fret much over it. I know that even MAF +5 or probably 10 is still in a good zone for me, but my average almost always ends up at MAF or below now. (practice makes perfect?)

Lately I have also been doing one speedwork run a week. This usually amounts to a tempo run at around AT, or 880 to 1 mile intervals. So far my MAF runs haven't declined at all..in fact they have been improving quite well in the past few months, which is encouraging.

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posted Jun-20-2007 01:04 PM            

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Low Heart Rate Training FAQ Because many have asked...
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posted Jun-20-2007 06:33 PM               

quote:

---

Originally posted by 13squared:
Okay,

My Maf as calulated is 148. I went on a 4 mile Maf run today with an average heart rate of 144. After that, I decided to find my max heart rate. The best I could do with 5 sprints of as much as I could muster was a hr of 172, the others peaked at 171.

The thing is, the last time I tried for a MHR, about a year ago, it was 192. Pre MAFing, all of my training runs would be in the 160's for heart rate.

I am 32 with no real injuries. I've been running 3-5 days a week with mileages from 20-35mpw for a little over a year, off and on the last decade. My first marathon was in April and I ran a 4:06:01.

What gives? Can I be sick and not know it? Weather was great, felt great except for a little nagging left calf pain.

Thanks!
p.s. Anyone know of a great sports doctor in the Toledo area?

---

I'm 31. In my first marathon I ran 4:06 (Oct 06). My mileage before the race was 25-45 mpw. 18 months ago I did a max HR test and hit 193. In March or April of 2007 I could not get my HR above 180. Striking similarities.

I did a lot of low HR training in 2006 before the marathon. I think that may have contributed to the low max HR. I dont think my max has dropped 13-14 bpm, I just dont think I have the will to push hard enough to find it. I think it's harder for an experienced runner to find a max HR as opposed to someone who's just begining.

On a side note, I also changed my blood pressure med in May of 07. It was a beta-blocker (which significantly lowers HR and stroke volume) I changed it to med that does not impair cardic function. I had been on the beta blocker for 10+ years.

I have a 5k scheduled for this coming weekend. I'd like to see if I can warm up throughly, then (re)find my max HR near the end of the race. We'll see if it has changed.

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posted Jun-20-2007 09:39 PM            

I plan on running the 'Run The Skyway 4 Miler' this Saturday to try, again, to find my max heart rate near the end of the race. The race will only happen once, and medals are up for grabs for the first 500 male and female finishers, so incentive is very high to try to max out to the limits of my current fitness level.

The race celebrates the completion of this:
http://www.dot.state.oh.us/dist2/webcams/mrc/MRCwebcams.htm

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posted Jun-21-2007 12:27 AM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by Sparrowface:
... the author says to determine your maximum aerobic function (MAF), which will be your ceiling. Mine would be 137 (180-age). Then he says to make the lower part of the zone 10 beats lower, 127-137. Do you run closer to the 127 or the 137? Should I warm up to ...

---

Most people start out at the lower end of their range and work up to whatever target they want after a few miles. I have had good luck varying the pace, dropping down 10-15 bpm for 1-3 minutes overy once in a while. That lets me do runs that are significantly longer, which is important when I'm trying to get back into shape after a layoff or some other problem. Doing a run-walk system works great that way - run at your target HR and periodically slow to a walk until you get down to target minus 10 or 15 bpm, then run again, etc.

I'm gonna sound like a broken record, but no formula, 180-age included, is foolproof. The data that I saw from VO2 tests which gave Aerobic Threshold (AeT) and Anaerobic Threshold (AT) show quite a bit of variability from the formulas. I don't know the Respiratory Quotient used to determine the AeT on the test results I saw, but it's probably not too far from what Maffetone used, since the best fit to AeT as a linear function of age was 176-1.03*age ... about as close as you can get to Maffetone's 180-age. Maybe much closer after "Maffetone adjustments" for sickness, injury, medical problems, etc are factored in.

Ok, FWIW, here are the measured AeT values for the six 43 year olds in the data I have:
110, 106, 118, 156, 119, 151.
How accurate would 180-age (137) be for these folks to use as an aerobic range upper limit? I think the four of these people with an AeT below 120 might be very ill served by using a training range of 127-137 for their low heart rate training.

If that 127-137 range feels good, you aren't injury prone with it, and you feel great after those easy runs - even like you could do it again, then it's probably a good training range for you.

MAF tests every month or so should allow you to track improvement in fitness.

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posted Jun-21-2007 07:16 AM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by leitnerj:
In reality, I don't much thought into it. I don't worry about the
profile. When I'm running with a friend, I generally just run much
more slowly, when I'm by myself, sometimes I push up to the
limits. It's not really a conscientious thing for me anymore.
In either case, my heart rate is always a lot lower in the first mile
or two, whether it's a training run or race. Your best bet is just
to mix things up a bit. If your MAF place is slow enough to whether
it's mucking with your running gait, then stay at the high end for
a while, or put some time in on the treadmill. If it's a reasonably
comfortable pace, try different things on different days. Ultimately
when you're just starting out (or re-starting out as you're doing),
you should just do whatever it takes to keep you within the MAF
boundary and still maintain your sanity.

---

Thanx, Jesse. I get what you are saying.
Also, thnx to Willamona and Doctser.
I think will mix it up, always keeping below
my MAF.

[This message has been edited by Sparrowface (edited Jun-21-2007).]

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posted Jun-21-2007 07:33 AM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by slowgino:
Most people start out at the lower end of their range and work up to whatever target they want after a few miles. I have had good luck varying the pace, dropping down 10-15 bpm for 1-3 minutes overy once in a while. That lets me do runs that are significantly longer, which is important when I'm trying to get back into shape after a layoff or some other problem. Doing a run-walk system works great that way - run at your target HR and periodically slow to a walk until you get down to target minus 10 or 15 bpm, then run again, etc.

I'm gonna sound like a broken record, but no formula, 180-age included, is foolproof. The data that I saw from VO2 tests which gave Aerobic Threshold (AeT) and Anaerobic Threshold (AT) show quite a bit of variability from the formulas. I don't know the Respiratory Quotient used to determine the AeT on the test results I saw, but it's probably not too far from what Maffetone used, since the best fit to AeT as a linear function of age was 176-1.03*age ... about as close as you can get to Maffetone's 180-age. Maybe much closer after "Maffetone adjustments" for sickness, injury, medical problems, etc are factored in.

Ok, FWIW, here are the measured AeT values for the six 43 year olds in the data I have:
110, 106, 118, 156, 119, 151.
How accurate would 180-age (137) be for these folks to use as an aerobic range upper limit? I think the four of these people with an AeT below 120 might be very ill served by using a training range of 127-137 for their low heart rate training.

If that 127-137 range feels good, you aren't injury prone with it, and you feel great after those easy runs - even like you could do it again, then it's probably a good training range for you.

MAF tests every month or so should allow you to track improvement in fitness.

---

I have no clue what you are talking about with all this RQ Aet biz. Are you telling me not to do this program? My understanding of it is that, yes, you can go out and run what "feels good" but still might be running at too high a heart range to work the aerobic system properly during the aerobic base period. How did you come up with the 176 formula? Are you a scientist or tester of some kind? Ultimately, what are you saying? How does one determine the proper effort then? If you are saying run what feels good, is a heart rate monitor even necessary? Lastly, why do you post on this thread if you aren't doing the MAF program, and seem to be confusing the issue and trying to lead people away from the formula? Genuinely curious about all questions. Not meant to flame.

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posted Jun-21-2007 07:54 AM            

I've been run/walking almost purely under my MAF hr for about a month (when I started running again) and this is definitely an improvement. Before I couldn't run a mile without my heart rate shooting up to 200. I really want to continue doing more running and less walking, but I'm not sure what I will benefit from more. I definitely feel like running a mile or more straight is helping with my form, running economy, and building leg muscle. I'm not sore or anything, my breathing is very much under control while running easy, and it feels comfortable. Any advice?

http://www.coolrunning.com/cgi-bin/log/display.cgi?u=RacingThoughts;s=RacingThought

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posted Jun-21-2007 08:04 AM               

quote:

---

Originally posted by RacingThoughts:
I've been mixing it up some and I'm not sure what to do. Saturday I ran/walked 6.25 miles never going above MAF + 10, averaging heart rate was MAF - 6. This week I wanted to see where my hr was while running very slowly and with no walking. Monday I was bored and ran some easy fartleks. Tuesday I ran an easy mile with no walking (ended up at a 15:00 pace), my heart rate was 185-190 (temp 88 degrees) then ran/walked another 1.5 miles. Yesterday I tried that again and ran 1.25 miles in 17:00 (13:36 pace) and my heart rate stayed between 172-178 (temp 90 degrees), then ran/walked another 1.25 miles. According to the heart rate reserve method that was about 75% and still aerobic.

I've been run/walking almost purely under my MAF hr for about a month (when I started running again) and this is definitely an improvement. Before I couldn't run a mile without my heart rate shooting up to 200. I really want to continue doing more running and less walking, but I'm not sure what I will benefit from more. I definitely feel like running a mile or more straight is helping with my form, running economy, and building leg muscle. I'm not sore or anything, my breathing is very much under control while running easy, and it feels comfortable. Any advice?

http://www.coolrunning.com/cgi-bin/log/display.cgi?u=RacingThoughts;s=RacingThought

---

How old are you?

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posted Jun-21-2007 08:53 AM            

Also, my max heart rate is around 215 from what I've measured and my resting hr is around 50-55.

[This message has been edited by RacingThoughts (edited Jun-21-2007).]

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posted Jun-21-2007 10:42 AM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by RacingThoughts:
I've been mixing it up some and I'm not sure what to do. Saturday I ran/walked 6.25 miles never going above MAF + 10, averaging heart rate was MAF - 6. This week I wanted to see where my hr was while running very slowly and with no walking. Monday I was bored and ran some easy fartleks. Tuesday I ran an easy mile with no walking (ended up at a 15:00 pace), my heart rate was 185-190 (temp 88 degrees) then ran/walked another 1.5 miles. Yesterday I tried that again and ran 1.25 miles in 17:00 (13:36 pace) and my heart rate stayed between 172-178 (temp 90 degrees), then ran/walked another 1.25 miles. According to the heart rate reserve method that was about 75% and still aerobic.

I've been run/walking almost purely under my MAF hr for about a month (when I started running again) and this is definitely an improvement. Before I couldn't run a mile without my heart rate shooting up to 200. I really want to continue doing more running and less walking, but I'm not sure what I will benefit from more. I definitely feel like running a mile or more straight is helping with my form, running economy, and building leg muscle. I'm not sore or anything, my breathing is very much under control while running easy, and it feels comfortable. Any advice?

http://www.coolrunning.com/cgi-bin/log/display.cgi?u=RacingThoughts;s=RacingThought

---

Heat like that can be very stressful, and is not the best way to measure fitness at this point in relation to your MAF. I think in sub 70º temps you might be down closer to your MAF. That being said, like my own, your aerobic system needs some major work. I suggest a Galloway run with walk breaks to stay under your MAF. Build volume by 5-10% or so per week, cutting back every 4th, then resuming where you left off for the next cycle. Before you know it, you'll be running everything. It takes time to see improvement. Be patient. You can also try some of the suggestions in "Training For Endurance" by Phil Maffetone like:

--aerobic intervals. Keep your HR at about MAF-15, then for two minutes run a pace that gets your HR up to your 154 MAF, then go back to the pace that gives you 139bpm again. Do that a bunch of times.

--downhill aerobic running or repeats. Find a hill that's not too steep, but long. Keep near your MAF on the downhills, you'll find you can run faster and work on your turnover (apple is my fave). Stay under MAF going back up the hill.

Good luck and keep going!!!!!

--Jimmy

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posted Jun-21-2007 10:47 AM               

quote:

---

Originally posted by RacingThoughts:
Sorry, I'm 26. Maf should be around 154 - 5. I started running again around 5 weeks ago after trying the C25K plan last year and hitting a wall (and finding out I have exercised/cold weather/allergy induced asthma) after about 6 weeks into it.

Also, my max heart rate is around 215 from what I've measured and my resting hr is around 50-55.

[This message has been edited by RacingThoughts (edited Jun-21-2007).]

---

Ok, given that you're on the young side, I'd suggest one of
two approaches, depending on your patience. (1) continue
doing what you're doing for a good 6 weeks, making sure that
you see progress along the way (less walking required, pace
picking up, etc) or (2) let yourself go 10-15 beats high for
several weeks and see what happens. I believe at your
age, you can safely go over the 180-age threshold by quite
a bit and still stay well into the aerobic zone. In either case,
you just want to make sure that over 2-3 week horizons
things move in the right direction. Personally, for people in
their early 20s and younger, I would generally encourage
#2 above, especially for someone that wants to run but
is mostly walking.

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posted Jun-21-2007 11:23 AM            

@jjwaverly42:
The heat and humidity have been killer! It's been raining on and off and the temps are averaging low to mid 90s, with 50-60% or more humidity. The park where I really like to run is too far from my house to get there and run before work in the early morning when it's cool. :/ The aerobic intervals Maffetone mentions sounds close to what I've been doing, except I've been letting it drop more than 15 beats most of the time. More like 20-30. Hills are hard to come by in southern Louisiana, everything is FLAT. I can think exactly 2-3 decent hills nearby to run and neither are very long or high! I might try them though.

@leitnerj:
I think I'm going try a little of both. I don't want to totally abandon what I've been doing to get here, but I don't want to get frustrated by constantly run/walking either. I'll probably keep strictly under my MAF HR on the really easy/recovery days, and going 15 or so beats above MAF on harder but still easy days. If I'm not progressing still in a few weeks, I'll go back to staying below it again.

[This message has been edited by RacingThoughts (edited Jun-21-2007).]

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posted Jun-21-2007 11:48 AM            

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posted Jun-21-2007 12:56 PM            

I know i'm slow, but at least i can get quicker

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