posted Jun-15-2007 07:58 AM            

quote:

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" ... going slower and longer and loving it

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Bill

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posted Jun-15-2007 09:14 AM            

Still seeing improvements even after some setbacks (back problems and some type of cold/sinus infection that lasted a week). I've been running up to my MAF HR of 154, then letting it drop to 120 while walking before running again. I find that I waste less energy on starting and stopping this way. My pace hasn't really changed, but my heart rate feels more stable and I'm doing more running and less walking. My body feels good overall besides some sore calves.

[This message has been edited by RacingThoughts (edited Jun-15-2007).]

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posted Jun-15-2007 12:11 PM            

MAF: 129

I broke the run into 4 HR zones:
mile 1-3 108-115
miles 4-6 115-119
miles 7-9 120-125
miles 10-12 125-129

I like to run as evenly as possible and get to the ceiling in the last few miles. Today, I slowed by about 10-20 seconds the last two miles. To be expected in the beginning. I've seen a lot worse (like 1-2 minutes of slowing).

bike trail sunny
63º/62%humidity

12.12 miles
total time 2:30:03
ave pace: 12:23

13:32 108
12:40 110
12:12 114
12:11 115
11:54 117
12:17 119
13:19 123 (long hill)
11:07 123 (long downhill)
12:21 124
11:48 126 (must have been thinking about )
12:30 128
12:37 128
.1:29 128
bike trail sunny

..................... ave.HR...ave pace
miles 1-3............111......0:12:48
miles 4-6............117.....0:12:07
miles 7-9............123.....0:12:16
miles 10-12.12...127......0:12:18
tot. aveHR 120

--Jimmy

MAF Training Jog Log
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posted Jun-17-2007 12:59 PM               

I attribute the ease to the Jesse/MAF/HADD/Nick HR running formula. I have now amassed over 350 miles in a little over 6 weeks and feel great. Not bad for an old fart(63+) closing in on 64,000 miles of running. I have averaged 134 HR--alot slower than my normal 140-150 training runs. My max is 200.

Prior to this experiment I have run 40-45 miles a week--running 5 days a week. I upped my running days to 6 and have moved the mileage up. I am amazed that it seems so easy. I finish my runs feeling great. This, in Florida with temps in the 70's/80's and 90's with high humidity.

For a guy who has coached and preached to runners for decades to slow down--I needed to heed some of my own advice.

Thanks to posters on this thread. I am going to post some of my recent experience with lower HR training on the Boomers site. Never seem to get much response over there. Nick

PS Jesse--hope you are feeling better. Remember. No sneezing--or running for several weeks.

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posted Jun-17-2007 02:55 PM               

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posted Jun-17-2007 03:51 PM            

Heal thy nostrils.

--Jimmy

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posted Jun-17-2007 03:54 PM            

Been training since January, and was derailed for April and the start of May with achilles tendinosis which I promptly fixed with eccentric exercises and reduction/slow build-up of mileage.

My goal is 3:30 - an elegant 8 minute pace, which also works out to 5 minute kilometers when training (the path I run is marked as such). So much less clunky than a 3:40, which is 8:22-ish, etc.... *grin*

Yesterday was one of my tougher training runs, and it makes me wonder if that 6 weeks to go is 'enough'... I guess I'll see.

I did what I call "15/15" - a 15 mile run with 15K in the middle at race pace. My 180-age pace is 147, fyi.

Miles & HR came out about like so (I don't have an overly accurate distance/time tracker, just glancing at the monitor and checking the splits as I cross them):
9:40 140
8:30 140
8:30 144
7:55 160
7:55 163
8:00 163
8:00 162 **ate 1 Gu here
8:00 164
7:55 164
8:00 164 ...and then the wheels started coming off
8:02 170
8:00 174
8:10 174
8:35 160
8:40 158

So I held my pace for the ~10 miles, but started bonking and thus my HR spiked at the end. Note that when I was "cooling down" in those last two miles, it FELT slow, but my time didn't go up much nor did my HR come down.

I had a few swigs of water and 1 Gu during the run, and likely depleted the bulk of my glycogen, which is why the pint of frozen yogurt afterwards always tastes so freakin' awesome...

I'm only doing 40 miles per week, and next Saturday is the 3rd 20+ run (planning four total before the race), and the week after that another 15-16'er with 12 at pace....

I think I'm on target for my race, but if ya'll have feedback I'd love to hear it.

Andrea

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posted Jun-17-2007 08:57 PM               

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posted Jun-17-2007 09:16 PM            

Jesse, my your sinuses heal as you dream of running. Do they let you do fake bicycle movement in bed at least?

Jimmy, you are the bestest nut in the whole jar.

I am just wallowing right now because summer is in full swing and it takes a lot out of me. I don't mind my times slowing down, but the heat is what is mentally tough for me. I am 3-4 minutes faster per mile than I was last year though. And the area I live in now has hills where as last summer's plodding grounds were mainly flat.

I am just trying to focus on the positive.

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posted Jun-17-2007 09:16 PM               

quote:

---

Originally posted by Long Run Nick:
Aharmer,
Congrats on your 5 min Marathon PR. I tried to leave a message on your blog--it didn't happen. Warm weather was the culprit. A 3:05 is nothing to look down at. Remember--EZ--recovery. Do some walking--it will help in the healing/recovery. Again, great job. Nick

---

Thanks a lot Nick, I appreciate the kind words. I'm happy with the race and will do some walking the next few days before launching the next training experiment in July! Hope the training is going well, keep in touch.

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posted Jun-17-2007 10:04 PM            

Overall i'm really digging the whole LHR thing, but any tips to help my hunger cravings would be greatly appreciated.

This morning I did my longest Maff run (Maff hr 148) yet, 14 miles, in 80 degree heat and a million percent humidity. Overall pace was 9:35 and average hr was 144. Can someone please assure me that once fall hits and I head for the Columbus marathon that i'll be able to run at an 8:30/mile and get my 3:43 that I really want... please?

The run: http://www.flickr.com/photos/dgroom/

How weight dependant is Maff-ing?

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posted Jun-17-2007 11:19 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by Long Run Nick:
Yikes!! First week of running over 60(61) miles in one week since April 1984. This excludes weeks where I would run an Ultra which stopped in the mid 90's.

I attribute the ease to the Jesse/MAF/HADD/Nick HR running formula. I have now amassed over 350 miles in a little over 6 weeks and feel great. Not bad for an old fart(63+) closing in on 64,000 miles of running. I have averaged 134 HR--alot slower than my normal 140-150 training runs. My max is 200.

Prior to this experiment I have run 40-45 miles a week--running 5 days a week. I upped my running days to 6 and have moved the mileage up. I am amazed that it seems so easy. I finish my runs feeling great. This, in Florida with temps in the 70's/80's and 90's with high humidity.

For a guy who has coached and preached to runners for decades to slow down--I needed to heed some of my own advice.

Thanks to posters on this thread. I am going to post some of my recent experience with lower HR training on the Boomers site. Never seem to get much response over there. Nick

PS Jesse--hope you are feeling better. Remember. No sneezing--or running for several weeks.

---

Way to go, Nick. I love to see someone breaking thru.
BTW, I sent my 67 yearold friend your story of late and Gino's as well. I also gave him my copy of "The High Performance Heat" by Maffetone (a bit more accessible than Training For Endurance), Mark Allen's Story, and
one of my heart rate monitors. He spent last week just running at a "perceived 125 bpm" which put him over 12:00 per mile. He ran 28 miles this week with no sciatica or hammie trouble--first time in years. He starts this week with the HRM. He was ready to quit running a few weeks ago, he was that frustrated over his body the past two years. Now, he is psyched up, has hope.

Keep going!

--Jimmy

Jog Log
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posted Jun-17-2007 11:43 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by 13squared:
I've been giving the low heart rate training a try for the past 6 weeks or so and I have a question. Is anyone else finding they are extremely hungry all the time under this plan? It seems like i can't get enough to eat, and i'm almost ready to admit that i've gained a few pounds since beginning.

Overall i'm really digging the whole LHR thing, but any tips to help my hunger cravings would be greatly appreciated.

This morning I did my longest Maff run (Maff hr 148) yet, 14 miles, in 80 degree heat and a million percent humidity. Overall pace was 9:35 and average hr was 144. Can someone please assure me that once fall hits and I head for the Columbus marathon that i'll be able to run at an 8:30/mile and get my 3:43 that I really want... please?

The run: http://www.flickr.com/photos/dgroom/

How weight dependant is Maff-ing?

---

Anything over 75-80º, and my HR zooms. Today's run was an example. I played around the house, had some coffee, taking kmy time. Finally go out about 10:30:

12:44 102
11:54 117
12:41 120
14:04 122
14:37 122

80º 56% humidity.

Best to get out when it's cooler. If you make improvement in the summer, you are doing well. When the temps drop in the fall and winter, it is so much easier to keep the HR down and have faster paces.

As far as your cravings, that could be either from increased time or distance, not necessarily running at a low-HR. Whatever the reason, it is what you are experiencing. Figure out a strategy to keep your calories in check so you don't start gaining fat (the voice in the back of my mind just said "Okay, RIGHT, Mr. Fatty! Take a digital picture of that solidified oil around your waist and email it to the dude or dudina, so he or she can see how you are Mr. "I Keep My Calories In Check", you Cliff Clavinlike fake training maven who can't keep the grape popscicles and fistfuls of Honeynut Cheerios from your constantly purple lips with the little crumbs of oats speckled about and collecting in the corners of your mouth, leaving stains and sugary grit on your pillow as you drool at night, as you dream of Twinkies).

That being shared--I am losing weight. Really. My wife thought she saw a rib today (i think it was just intestine).

If you are running 9:35 pace in this heat, and your HR is only 144, you won't see 3:43 (8:31), you will see 3:39 or better. Considering you get enough 20-milers in of course. And you don't eat yourself into size 69 jockies, panties, or maybe a Sumo wrestler's loin clothe--of course.

Keep going!

--Jimmy
Jog Log
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posted Jun-17-2007 11:53 PM            

--Jimmy

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posted Jun-18-2007 07:59 AM            

Previously, I adjusted my pace to maintain a sub-MAF HR. On this run, I settled into a comfortable pace that was MAF-10 and I maintained a constant pace and allowed my HR to rise as needed. The course I ran was essentially flat, so with a Garmin unit it was very easy to maintain a constant pace. I found running at a constant pace much more comfortable than running at a constant HR, although this would be more difficult on a rolling course.

My MAF is 133 ... temp mid/upper 60s ... the nitty gritty ...

Mile 1 10:38 121
Mile 2 10:29 124
Mile 3 10:29 124
Mile 4 10:30 124
Mile 5 10:31 124
Mile 6 10:28 124
Mile 7 10:31 124
Mile 8 10:26 125
Mile 9 10:25 126
Mile 10 10:33 127
Mile 11 10:25 128
Mile 12 10:29 129
Mile 13 10:31 131
Mile 14 10:28 131
Mile 15 10:29 133

I was fortunate (lucky) to pick a pace that resulted in my final mile HR to be at MAF. I was also fortunate that there was some high cloud cover that kept the temperature from climbing as quickly as it might have.

After 7 weeks, I'm happy with my progress. I still wonder, however, how all of this will translate into racing pace. I believe my aerobic fitness is improving, but I feel so slow. Once upon a time, a 10:00 pace felt slow ... now I find myself becoming comfortable with much slower paces ... 10:00 would seem fast to me now. How will sub-9:00 feel?

I still haven't passed anyone while out running, but that day is coming!

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posted Jun-18-2007 08:25 AM            

quote:

---

"If you are running 9:35 pace in this heat, and your HR is only 144, you won't see 3:43 (8:31), you will see 3:39 or better. Considering you get enough 20-milers in of course."

---

Bill

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posted Jun-18-2007 09:14 AM            

I've noticed a spike in pace of about 40 seconds per mile my last two runs. From 9:10-9:20 mpm to 10:00mpm. It either could be warmer weather, tiredness, or lingering effects of a cold/allergies. Don't know yet.

It's tough trying to slog through all of these summer miles, when my goal race isn't til next April!

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posted Jun-18-2007 09:36 AM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by 13squared:
I've been giving the low heart rate training a try for the past 6 weeks or so and I have a question. Is anyone else finding they are extremely hungry all the time under this plan? It seems like i can't get enough to eat, and i'm almost ready to admit that i've gained a few pounds since beginning.

Overall i'm really digging the whole LHR thing, but any tips to help my hunger cravings would be greatly appreciated.

This morning I did my longest Maff run (Maff hr 148) yet, 14 miles, in 80 degree heat and a million percent humidity. Overall pace was 9:35 and average hr was 144. Can someone please assure me that once fall hits and I head for the Columbus marathon that i'll be able to run at an 8:30/mile and get my 3:43 that I really want... please?

The run: http://www.flickr.com/photos/dgroom/

How weight dependant is Maff-ing?

---

Well, my first marathon was last February, and I was targeting a 3:39 or better. My MAFF pace (145 target) was about 9:30 at that time. I did, however, log quite a few miles. (60+ for 4 weeks until my marathon taper)

I ran a 3:34:46, with a negative half split by several minutes. So, I could have gone even faster.

I ran another marathon in much warmer temps, and ran a 3:27:50.

My MAF pace is now down to about 8:35-8:40, and I'm confident I can (er....I will!) BQ this fall (need a 7:30 pace) assuming my training goes well, etc.

I've found that if I can run one minute slower than MP at MAF, then so far I've had absolutely no problems maintaining MP. Of course, that won't be true for everyone, but it should for most I would think.

Others who MAF here and tackle marathons...what is your MAF pace and marathon pace, out of curiousity?

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posted Jun-18-2007 08:22 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by Docster:
Well, my first marathon was last February, and I was targeting a 3:39 or better. My MAF pace (145 target) was about 9:30 at that time. I did, however, log quite a few miles. (60+ for 4 weeks until my marathon taper)

I ran a 3:34:46, with a negative half split by several minutes. So, I could have gone even faster.

I ran another marathon in April much warmer temps, and ran a 3:27:50.

My MAF pace is now down to about 8:35-8:40, and I'm confident I can (er....I will!) BQ this fall (need a 7:30 pace) assuming my training goes well, etc.

I've found that if I can run one minute slower than MP at MAF, then so far I've had absolutely no problems maintaining MP. Of course, that won't be true for everyone, but it should for most I would think.

Others who MAF here and tackle marathons...what is your MAF pace and marathon pace, out of curiousity?

---

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posted Jun-18-2007 08:47 PM            

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posted Jun-19-2007 01:54 AM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by willamona:
All I can say is, I better flippin' BQ this fall. Since the temps are up right now, I am usually seeing 12-13 mm. I get my next peek at how well I am doing whenever the temps drop into the 60s. In the meantime, I just slog along.

---

It will pay off, as long as your training load doesn't have to be drastically cut because of the heat.

Remember Marty Liquori in 1977? He had been training hard for 6 weeks in really hot Florida weather, and was thinking of skipping the World Cup, for which he was the American 5K representative. His times just weren't good. His long-time training partner told him it was just the heat, that he should go to Europe.

He was a complete unknown in Europe and hadn't run a race in that hot six weeks. In a "tune-up" 1500 in Nice he blew ahead with 300 to go, beating Mike Boit, Wilson Waigwa, et al. Two days later in a 5K against the best field in four years he was still an unknown dark horse. Again, he struck with a lap to go, winning by 2 seconds against guys like Dick Quax, Mirus Yifter, and Henry Rono... setting a new American record .

Just something to think about when you're training in the heat. That and the BQ you're going to do.

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posted Jun-19-2007 08:23 AM            

quote:

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Originally posted by willamona:
Well, let's see, right before my last marathon I was starting to see 10 mm but was usually at about 10:30 mm or so. I ended up with a 3:48 marathon which isn't so bad until you consider that a 3:45 is a BQ for me. I missed it by 83 seconds. Now, when the temps are down, I can MAF at about 9:30-9:20 mm. All I can say is, I better flippin' BQ this fall. Since the temps are up right now, I am usually seeing 12-13 mm. I get my next peek at how well I am doing whenever the temps drop into the 60s. In the meantime, I just slog along.

---

What was your MAF heart rate and what was your heart rate for the marathon? Was it a significant number of beats over MAF? I sure don't feel like i'll be able to go that much faster right now. i.e. my MAF feels like the fastest I could sustain for an entire marathon....

I plan on having three 20 milers and a fourth long run of 22 three weeks before the marathon. I sure hope that this all pays off in the end... i'm trying to avenge my first marathon which was a 4:06:01 when i really wanted to beat 4.

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posted Jun-19-2007 08:25 AM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by willamona:
Well, let's see, right before my last marathon I was starting to see 10 mm but was usually at about 10:30 mm or so. I ended up with a 3:48 marathon which isn't so bad until you consider that a 3:45 is a BQ for me. I missed it by 83 seconds. Now, when the temps are down, I can MAF at about 9:30-9:20 mm. All I can say is, I better flippin' BQ this fall. Since the temps are up right now, I am usually seeing 12-13 mm. I get my next peek at how well I am doing whenever the temps drop into the 60s. In the meantime, I just slog along.

---

What was your MAF heart rate and what was your heart rate for the marathon? Was it a significant number of beats over MAF? I sure don't feel like i'll be able to go that much faster right now. i.e. my MAF feels like the fastest I could sustain for an entire marathon....

I plan on having three 20 milers and a fourth long run of 22 three weeks before the marathon. I sure hope that this all pays off in the end... i'm trying to avenge my first marathon which was a 4:06:01 when i really wanted to beat 4.

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posted Jun-19-2007 09:23 AM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by 13squared:
What was your MAF heart rate and what was your heart rate for the marathon? Was it a significant number of beats over MAF? I sure don't feel like i'll be able to go that much faster right now. i.e. my MAF feels like the fastest I could sustain for an entire marathon....

I plan on having three 20 milers and a fourth long run of 22 three weeks before the marathon. I sure hope that this all pays off in the end... i'm trying to avenge my first marathon which was a 4:06:01 when i really wanted to beat 4.

---

If that's the case then perhaps you should slow down a bit more. MAF should be a fairly easy pace all things considered. What is your max heart rate?

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posted Jun-19-2007 11:21 AM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by 13squared:
What was your MAF heart rate and what was your heart rate for the marathon? Was it a significant number of beats over MAF? I sure don't feel like i'll be able to go that much faster right now. i.e. my MAF feels like the fastest I could sustain for an entire marathon....

I plan on having three 20 milers and a fourth long run of 22 three weeks before the marathon. I sure hope that this all pays off in the end... i'm trying to avenge my first marathon which was a 4:06:01 when i really wanted to beat 4.

---

I run a marathon way above MAF. I measured my HR in one marathon last year. MY MAF was 140 at the time:
Pace....aveHR
1) 8:30 152
2) 8:32 159
3) 8:16 162
4) 8:11 167
5) 8:10 168
6) 8:11 171
7) 8:17 171
8) 8:13 170
9) 9:00 173
10)8:35 171
11) 7:58 169
12) 7:46 168
13) 7:38 175
14) 7:46 175
15) 7:47 173
16) 7:35 172
17) 7:25 174
18) 7:46 176
19) 7:36 179
20) 7:51 181
21) 7:58 181
22) 8:17 180
23) 8:18 179
24) 7:54 183
25) 7:33 187
25.2) 1:42 189
26.2) 7:33 189

I maxed out by the end as I ran the last 2.2 pretty hard, and "sprinted" the last 1/4 mile to BQ by 27 seconds with 3:30:32.

ist half 152-175 bpm ave 167 85%
2nd half 175-189 bpm ave 179 91%
overall average 173 bpm 87% MHR

I averaged about 4-6 beats below LT.

Try a few tempo runs (8-12 miles after a warm-up of 2) as you get closer to the marathon. Get your HR up to about 75-83%. 75% in the first tempo mile, then hold that pace, let the HR rise, but don't go over 85% and see what you pace average is. Providing you have put in enough long runs and MAF work, and you don't eat closer than 3 hours before the marathon (no gels or sports drink until 40 minutes into the race), you should be able to run the marathon close to that pace. Especially if you start slower than the planned pace by at least 30 seconds, and warming into it by mile 3-4.

Nothing wrong with running a marathon at MAF, but you would be keeping your best performance at bay, and just be slowing down the whole time. Not a bad idea to start the first few miles at MAF to warm-up, then speed up to dream race pace.

Another note; John Parker in "HRM Training for the Compleat Idiot"recommends 75% HRR as an average if you are going to use your HRM in the race. Perhaps a zone of 65-75% HRR for the first half, and a zone of 75-85% for the second. He found great success using 75% as an average. That equates to about 80% MHR, give or take a few beats. You could devise a tempo run that averages 75% HRR, and that would give you an idea of what is possible.

Keep going!

--Jimmy

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[This message has been edited by jjwaverly42 (edited Jun-19-2007).]

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