posted Nov-19-2006 08:55 AM               

quote:

---

Originally posted by fjordrunner:
it's been a while since i posted anything here, but i've essentially been following MAF since last may. i'm 54, started at 143 lbs, down to 121 lbs now. i try to run 30 miles/week. my runs are all on hills, and on the same hills that sent my heart rate soaring last may i can now keep on trucking at about 18 min miles; last may i couldn't crawl slowly enough to keep my HR below MAF. my MAF is 126; i try to stay 5 below, and allow my HRR of 133 on the hills. i've used the treadmill a few times now that the snow has started, but it's frustrating because i can't get the miles in during a reasonable amount of time. i also watch my HR climb and find it harder to slow the treadmill down, than to just let my feet slow down when i'm outdoors. i've run two 5Ks this fall, and actually saw one mile at 10.25 (my average pace on runs is more in the 13 to 14 range - a huge improvement from when i started, in the 15 or 16 range, and over 20 on hills).
it works, even on old folks like me

---

The biggest thing I have to say there is - congratulations on that
spectacular weight loss! And on moderate mileage to boot. 18 minute
miles up hills ain't too bad.

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posted Nov-19-2006 09:28 AM               

quote:

---

Originally posted by fjordrunner:
it's been a while since i posted anything here, but i've essentially been following MAF since last may. i'm 54, started at 143 lbs, down to 121 lbs now. i try to run 30 miles/week. my runs are all on hills, and on the same hills that sent my heart rate soaring last may i can now keep on trucking at about 18 min miles; last may i couldn't crawl slowly enough to keep my HR below MAF. my MAF is 126; i try to stay 5 below, and allow my HRR of 133 on the hills. i've used the treadmill a few times now that the snow has started, but it's frustrating because i can't get the miles in during a reasonable amount of time. i also watch my HR climb and find it harder to slow the treadmill down, than to just let my feet slow down when i'm outdoors. i've run two 5Ks this fall, and actually saw one mile at 10.25 (my average pace on runs is more in the 13 to 14 range - a huge improvement from when i started, in the 15 or 16 range, and over 20 on hills).
it works, even on old folks like me

---

I THINK YOU ARE WONDERFUL AND REALLY AN INSPIRATION TO OTHERS!

Your beating me and I'm a bit younger, 46, and need to be more consistent! I think I'll keep reading your post and gaining strength from it!

CONGRATS.....

[This message has been edited by Boston124 (edited Nov-19-2006).]

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posted Nov-19-2006 11:43 AM               

quote:

---

Originally posted by leitnerj:
Well, I could pretend that I know the real answer, but I can
only say that if it's not excessively hot and the overall distance
is not too long, I generally reach a steady state after 4 or 5 miles
or so, where my heart rate drifts very slowly. In the first few
miles there are a lot transients that will eventually die out.

---

but you are the Guru you know all the answers

how does one interpret (sp??) this info for a half marathon in 2 weeks time ie what pace do I run at

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posted Nov-19-2006 12:47 PM               

quote:

---

Originally posted by footsie:
but you are the Guru you know all the answers

how does one interpret (sp??) this info for a half marathon in 2 weeks time ie what pace do I run at

---

I don't think you should take the data off of your recent training
runs to tell you what you should do for a half marathon. I can't
tell from your "laps" what your pace per mileage at MAF is (unless
your laps are miles). In either case, if you know your pace per
mileage at MAF, you can go into the table I have in the FAQ
for a ballpark estimate of what you might be capable of, but
that's just a guess for a starting point.

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posted Nov-19-2006 02:33 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by Cashmason:
Kponds, you are good to go right now.

Be warned the first few weeks are reallly frustrating as you will be force to go so slow that snails will jump up and bite you on the ankles, and granny's in their walkers will pass you.

If you stick with it you will be able to run many more miles than you do now and eventually you will be faster and the running will be easier.

---

Actually this doesn't seem to be the case at all for me. I'm a slower runner (12:00/mile is fast for me), and I haven't been using an HRM consistently until now, maybe I have been Maffetoning all along and haven't known it!

But, I've done 3 runs now specifically trying to stay under MAF at all times, and they have been much more enjoyable and comfortable, and on my long run today, I didn't feel like I was ready to die at the end like I usually do.

Some questions, I know that Maffetone reccomends not doing weightlifting. Should we avoid other things which would cause us to raise our heart rates above MAF? I can see this being a problem in the bedroom...lol.

If my HR hops above MAF for a few seconds is that even a problem?

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posted Nov-19-2006 06:08 PM            

Beat former marathon PR of 3:28:30 (Philly 2005).

I guess Maffetone low-HR training is a waste of time. :> )

I'll give more when I get home.

--Jimmy

My running world

Current MAFTraining

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posted Nov-19-2006 07:16 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by jjwaverly42:
Todays Philadelphia Marathon, Sunday Nov. 19:
3:22:18 PR BQ (needed 3:30:59)

Beat former marathon PR of 3:28:30 (Philly 2005).

I guess Maffetone low-HR training is a waste of time. :> )

I'll give more when I get home.

--Jimmy

My running world

Current MAFTraining

---

A 6-minute PR and a great time. BQ'd by a mile. Congratulations! You deserve it. What's next, 200-mile weeks? Looking forward to the alway entertaining race report.

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posted Nov-19-2006 07:29 PM               

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posted Nov-19-2006 09:36 PM               

Susan, you are doing very well.

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posted Nov-19-2006 09:51 PM               

quote:

---

Originally posted by kponds:

Some questions, I know that Maffetone reccomends not doing weightlifting. Should we avoid other things which would cause us to raise our heart rates above MAF? I can see this being a problem in the bedroom...lol.

If my HR hops above MAF for a few seconds is that even a problem?

---

Don't go too crazy with it! If you spend more time weightlifting
than you do running, then that may interfere. If your weightlifting
volume is much smaller than running volume, it probably won't
have any appreciable negative effect.

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posted Nov-19-2006 09:53 PM               

quote:

---

Originally posted by jjwaverly42:
Todays Philadelphia Marathon, Sunday Nov. 19:
3:22:18 PR BQ (needed 3:30:59)

Beat former marathon PR of 3:28:30 (Philly 2005).

I guess Maffetone low-HR training is a waste of time. :> )

I'll give more when I get home.

--Jimmy

My running world

Current MAFTraining

---

Fantastic Jimmy! Great to see some nice results. Are you feeling
pretty good and recovering?

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posted Nov-20-2006 05:25 AM            

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posted Nov-21-2006 12:58 AM               

The real reason I wanted to do it again is that my mile splits sped up over my last test. Since then, I've bought and started reading Training For Endurance and it is stated that if your splits speed up, this means that I did warm up. Well, here are my splits for today:

No wind with temps at 45*F

My warmup was a 5-10 min walk (HR at 100) followed by a slow 1.39 mi. jog with ave/maxHR 139/150 for 16:48.

Here are the mile splits run on a track. My MAF is 150:

Mile--Time-----AveHR----MaxHR
1-----10:52-------147--------150
2-----10:59-------148--------151
3-----10:59-------148--------151
4-----10:58-------148--------152
5-----10:51-------148--------150

I finished up this with a 2.10 mi cooldown.

As I mentioned earlier, I'm not comparing this test to last weeks or getting excited at the results, but I find it interesting that I'm not seeing a slowing of pace at MAF HR. I feel that I'm sufficently warmed up after walking + jogging for over 20 min before starting the MAF test. By the start of mile 5, I'm about 1 hour into the run, so certainly I'm warmed up by then, but yet in both tests, this was my fastest mile. I'm not going to worry about it, but am curious to get anybody's thoughts on this.

Chris

PS. Congrats, Jimmy on your BQ

[This message has been edited by camy (edited Nov-21-2006).]

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posted Nov-21-2006 01:23 AM            

PHILLY MARATHON

Came into the race with a sore right heel (diagnosis: plantar fasciitis--more on the how's and why's later). I could feel it with every step. 36 hours before, while watching The Amazing Race on tape, my calf seized up. You know how you feel it coming and you try to catch it before it turns into a baseball? I caught it in time so that it was just a golf ball. About half way. So, the next night, it was still tight and sore. Magnified by pre-race excitement. Stayed at the sold-out host hotel, Sheraton, about a mile from the start. They put me and my sweetie on the 26th floor in room 2620, believe it or not (26.2 miles--get it?). Great view, nice relaxing room until...9:00. That's when the party for the Sci-Fi convention started. BOOM! BOOM! BOOM! I called to complain, as we paid good money for that room. What the hell was a band doing playing on the roof? Anyway, it went on until 2 in the morning. The desk kept saying it would be over soon. It wasn't. They comped the room--nice. I got 2 hours sleep. Better than zero.

To the race in a nutshell. My weight the morning of the race--172 (3 less than Philly last year, and 9 less than Sugarloaf). The weather was perfect, 42º at the start and 48º at the finish, pretty much the same as last year. I made a pact with my body that if it would hold up, I'd give it lots of rest for many weeks. I think it agreed.

I walked the 1.1 mile to the start, ran 15 minutes, then lined up in my shorts and RIRR singlet alongside my friend and fellow RIRR member, Chris (3:16 PR). I started with an 8:16 first mile, and finished with an 8:14 paced last 1.2 mile. So, I slowed a little in the last two miles, as I chose just to run relaxed until the end. I figured I had a 3:21-3:22 -ish in the bag--good enough. No need to take advantage of "the pact" by turning my heel into mush to finish 30-45 seconds faster. Starting at mile 14 thru mile 20, the wind picked up and was a factor. I decided to just let it do whatever it wanted to my pace, and I held the same perceived effort. At mile 18, some dominant voice from the crowd yelled "run relaxed." Good idea. That's what I focused on from then on. Made a huge difference mentally and in my stride. The wind helped on the way in. Finished nicely, ate a few bananas, and walked back to the hotel talking with a guy from New York. It was good to see my sweetie back at the room. We went out for Irish food (traditional Shepherd's Pie), followed by a sumptious salmon dinner at Shulas (strangest fine-dining place ever--the menu was on a real football).

Overall splits:
1st half 1:40:35
2nd half 1:41:43
Total 3:22:18 (7:43 pace)

Pretty even halves I would say.

706th place of 6119 total runners
62nd of 545 in age division (45-49)

MAF AND THE YEAR
Now a brief synopsis of 2006 and the low-HR experiment:

Total Miles: 2558
(MAF=141 bpm)

142 bpm 72% and below = 2177 miles (85% total miles)

143-145 bpm 73-74% MHR = 46 miles (1.8% of total miles)

146-152 bpm 74-77% Mhr = 100 miles (3.9% of total miles)

153-159 bpm 78-81% MHR = 15 miles (0.6% of total miles)

mrp tempo 160-179 81-91% MHR = 50 (2.0% of total miles)

V02 max intervals = 8 miles (0.3% of total miles)

LT = 31 (1.2% of total miles)

fartlek = 7 (0.3% of total miles)

Miles Raced: 124 (5% of total miles)

PR's (all on same courses as previous PR's) :
10-mile 1 minute PR
half-marathon 2 minute PR
marathon 6 minute PR

1 injury--no layoff
*******************************

It was a weird year for me. Training never played out fully as I wanted it to, though I did complete the MAF periods I had planned. One 16 week (starting in DEC. 2005) and one 8 week. There were just a few mrp tempo miles at the end of a few long runs in the 8 -weeker. My mom died during the first one, and I did what I usually do when I grieve--eat too much. So I went into the Sugarloaf marathon a bit heavy at 181 lbs. Still, I performed pretty much as well as I did in my PR at Philly in 2005. Just 2 minutes slower on a tougher course.

The day after Sugarloaf, I awoke with a new soreness in my heel that I had never felt before. I figured it was just the 11 miles of downhill running in shoes with less support and carrying that extra weight. Well, the soreness went away after a few weeks of MAF running and less miles. Would come back a little after a hard race, then go away. I began the next marathon training, and ran 6 of 8 weeks of 100 miles (mostly below MAF-10 or 66% MHR). Everything was fine. Then I ran a PR half-marathon in October. Woke up the next morning, with the soreness. Instead of taking a rest week, I ran 87 miles with a progression long-run with my friend, Chris, the following Sunday. That put it over the edge. The next morning. With each step as I got out of bed "ouch, ouCH, OUCH, MOMMY!"

Plantars fasciitis.

I took a few days off. I threw the whole healing cupboard at it. 400 towel scrunches a day, calf stretches, Strassberg sock, massage, golf ball on the arches, felt orthotic, ibuprofen, toe taps, and yoga. It got better and I was able to run the remaining 5 weeks of training, I just lowered the mileage. Still got my remaining long run and tempo runs in, and the taper went as planned. But it was never normal, and always hurt a little. By the marathon it was hurting a bit more as the calf seized up. During the marathon, the heel hurt the whole way, but I figured it wasn't getting worse, so might as well get it finished.

My podiatrist and I determined together that the heel was injured originally at the Sugarloaf Marathon due to being overweight, the relentless downhill pounding, new less-cushiony in the heel shoes, and a unknown biomechanical problem in my right foot (thus the felt orthotic). MAF training kept it at bay, then when I would run hard it would begin to surface. The combination of a half-marathon, high mileage, and a hard progression run in the span of 8 days put it over the top. That was a mistake.

So, in final:

--good marathon

--good half-marathon (raced during hard training)

--good 10-mile pr

--MAF training is for real, though (without proof) I believe it's more of a case of working below 72% MHR (or maybe a % of some other threshold like AT or LT) than it is the 180-age formula. I think the formula is a great way to get most down into the proper lower, aerobic, fat-burning HR's. But it might not work for some as they will still be working too high or too low in relation to MHR or AT/LT. I say go for the 180-age, and if it doesn't work even though you are building mileage, adjust to the %MHR. I plan to stick with the low-HR training until it stops working.

--Extra weight is not good

--After any hard race, rest, rest, rest. At my age and level of development, I can't be running a 100-mile week, then a half marathon, then 87 miles, then a hard long run too close together.

--time for a nice period of rest, healing, walking, losing more weight (goal: 155-160--I'm 5'10"), aerobic work on the bike, and hopefully be ready to begin training in January for Boston.

Thanks to Jesse and all of you for your support, and for contributing to this great experiment. Your action and sharing of personal stories and data has helped me to learn, push my limits more, and to improve.

Now, where are are those FIg Newtons...no, stop...just one, come on...okay, just one...hey, that was six!...they're smaller than they use to be....

--Jimmy

2006 Training Log
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[This message has been edited by jjwaverly42 (edited Nov-21-2006).]

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posted Nov-21-2006 03:41 AM               

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**DTFB**

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posted Nov-22-2006 09:04 AM               

Check this out. I quote from the book: "Use muscle testing to assess the fit of the shoe. ... While in the store, perform the basic muscle-testing techniques. Extend your arm perpendicular to your body, and have someone apply pressure on the back of your outstretched hand while you stand with no shoes on. This test will be your benchmark. Next, try on the shoe model, and walk around the store or run around the block. Use the muscle-testing technique again to determine if your body is strengthened or weakened by the particular shoe."

hahahaha

He also has comments like this for PICKING FOOD. Right.... "Is this apple the one I should get, or should I pick out that one next to it?" Just ask your muscles!

The really scary thing is that the illustrious Dr. Phil Maffetone was totally into this bunk pseudo-science of muscle-testing, too. Stu relates numerous "magical" stories about Maffetone. No, this doesn't discredit his MAF method, but I do look at Maffetone in a different way now.

(I have just tested my muscles, and they approved this message.)

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posted Nov-22-2006 09:41 AM               

quote:

---

Originally posted by Ad Nihilum:
I just bought Stu Mittleman's book Slow Burn. The first half of this book is filled with, um, well, to be polite, nonsense. I respect Stu's achievements and I bought the book for some additional reading on low-HR training. But I'm not going to "ask my muscles" if a pair of shoes is right.

Check this out. I quote from the book: "Use muscle testing to assess the fit of the shoe. ... While in the store, perform the basic muscle-testing techniques. Extend your arm perpendicular to your body, and have someone apply pressure on the back of your outstretched hand while you stand with no shoes on. This test will be your benchmark. Next, try on the shoe model, and walk around the store or run around the block. Use the muscle-testing technique again to determine if your body is strengthened or weakened by the particular shoe."

hahahaha

He also has comments like this for PICKING FOOD. Right.... "Is this apple the one I should get, or should I pick out that one next to it?" Just ask your muscles!

The really scary thing is that the illustrious Dr. Phil Maffetone was totally into this bunk pseudo-science of muscle-testing, too. Stu relates numerous "magical" stories about Maffetone. No, this doesn't discredit his MAF method, but I do look at Maffetone in a different way now.

(I have just tested my muscles, and they approved this message.)

---

I agree with you 100%, both with regard to some of the elements
of Mittleman and Maffetone. One may tend to read carefully the
"wrong" elements of either of their writings and say "how can you
believe anything these crackpots say?" Maffetone with the walmart
shoes - what's with that? There was one good comment in Mittleman
on shoes that I can relate to - wearing a couple of sizes up is a
good way to go. I think if it weren't for some of the crackpot elements
of any of this literature, we may not need this thread!

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posted Nov-22-2006 10:31 AM               

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posted Nov-22-2006 11:58 AM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by leitnerj:
I agree with you 100%, both with regard to some of the elements
of Mittleman and Maffetone. One may tend to read carefully the
"wrong" elements of either of their writings and say "how can you
believe anything these crackpots say?" Maffetone with the walmart
shoes - what's with that? There was one good comment in Mittleman
on shoes that I can relate to - wearing a couple of sizes up is a
good way to go. I think if it weren't for some of the crackpot elements
of any of this literature, we may not need this thread!

---

I considered doing the low heart rate thing last fall but was turned off after reading "Slow Burn" and elected to try Pfitz 18/55mpw instead. I went back to basebuilding when my common sense told me that consistently running higher mileage over a period of time would help me more than 6x800m @ 5K pace. After I've ridden basebuilding as long as I can, my "speedwork" will probably be a diet (man I'm not looking forward to that). I'm not drinking Stu Mittleman's wheat grass tea though.

As part of this running experiment, I'm reading a lot (a library card works great for this) and trying not to pre-judge (hard with Stu), "proportioning my belief to the evidence."

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posted Nov-22-2006 01:17 PM            

--Jimmy

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posted Nov-23-2006 08:56 PM               

Let's assume I'm going to adopt a program which has me running 90% of miles at Maff, 10% at faster speeds, closer to LT.

Here are the options I'm weighing, which would you incorporate if you were doing the 90/10?

1. One weekly run where entire run is done at higher HR.
2. Make the 10% the end of a weekly long run.
3. Run 10% of each run at the higher HR.
4. Perform a Hadd test each week. This scenario would have me running 4.5 miles above Maff per week, which would be pretty close to 10%.

I've got my preference, just wondering what others would do. Thanks!

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posted Nov-24-2006 12:34 AM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by aharmer:
Jesse, Jimmy, or others:

Let's assume I'm going to adopt a program which has me running 90% of miles at Maff, 10% at faster speeds, closer to LT.

Here are the options I'm weighing, which would you incorporate if you were doing the 90/10?

1. One weekly run where entire run is done at higher HR.
2. Make the 10% the end of a weekly long run.
3. Run 10% of each run at the higher HR.
4. Perform a Hadd test each week. This scenario would have me running 4.5 miles above Maff per week, which would be pretty close to 10%.

I've got my preference, just wondering what others would do. Thanks!

---

If I was in an aerobic base period, I'd do 100% MAF. When I'm in the last 6-8 weeks coming into a marathon, I'll add the higher HR's, mixing it up.
Doing some at the end of a long run. Doing a 7-14 mile race pace tempo run after a 3-7 mile warm-up. Sometimes, even adding a short LT run in addition, making it two runs out of 6 with some higher HR's. If I'm in a racing season, racing almost weekly, I'll keep everything in between, except an occasional LT run, under MAF. I wouldn't do your #3 or #4.
But that's me. I'm a #1 and #2 guy (my grandpappy said it was a blessing when #2 happened at least once a week).

--Jimmy

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posted Nov-24-2006 02:32 AM               

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posted Nov-24-2006 03:53 AM               

Julia: I run alone all the time and always have done, were I live is a little village in the middle of the English countryside so I haven't really got an option. I don't find it a problem, I run along mp3 on, thinking about how MAF will improve my pace etc any races I have ( i only do about 3 a year) and just take in the views. In fact sometimes I get so ingrossed in my thoughts I don't even know whats on the mp3. Great therapy
You have a great MAF pace. Keep at it.
Roy

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posted Nov-24-2006 06:36 AM               

quote:

---

Originally posted by aharmer:
Jesse, Jimmy, or others:

Let's assume I'm going to adopt a program which has me running 90% of miles at Maff, 10% at faster speeds, closer to LT.

Here are the options I'm weighing, which would you incorporate if you were doing the 90/10?

1. One weekly run where entire run is done at higher HR.
2. Make the 10% the end of a weekly long run.
3. Run 10% of each run at the higher HR.
4. Perform a Hadd test each week. This scenario would have me running 4.5 miles above Maff per week, which would be pretty close to 10%.

I've got my preference, just wondering what others would do. Thanks!

---

My approach would be similar to Jimmy's. I would certainly do the
exclusive 8 weeks below MAF. Then I would do the fast finish to
one long run every week or two. The other part would be made up
by doing long races, at least half marathon. Ok, so that's what I do
anyway (except without the fast-finish runs).

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