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Topic: Basebuilding, low heart rate training, a la Maffetone and Mark Allen |
runningforfreedom
Cool Runner |
 posted Jun-04-2007 05:10 PM
   
Hello,
I started Maf training today... not quite sure I stayed in my range the whole time, but I tried to stay close as possible... I have a question though... I just used the 180-age.. comming up with 146 as my MAF... I had a couple of spikes over that momentarily today... but mostly stayed at or below that... my question is this... how low should I let my HR get to... is there like a minimum? I mean, there were some points where I was about 10 beats less.. and a few times I might have dipped lower... because it's the first day, I had no idea what my pace would need to be at... so I was toying round with the speed on the TM... trying to find what would work to keep me in my HR range. I know I shouldn't be training at like 100... but a realistic range, or should I just try and figure out where I need to be to keep my HR as close to 146 as possible? I also have been batterling some minor shinsplints since my frist HM 3 months ago... another reason I decided to try this approach to base build over the next 3 months at least, maybe longer depending on where it takes me. Because of the shinsplints should I be doing -5 also... making me MAF 141? Sorry about all the questions LHR newbies want to know LOLThanks in advance!
[edited to add] I am right now doing all my runs for time rather than for distance... so a minimum of an hour a day, 5 days a week, with 2 runs of an hour and a half (for now)... I would like to build from there... with my speed today being 16mm... that is not a ton of miles... but is it enough to get benifits from this kind of training? I'm guessing that to be about 20mpw... give or take a few miles... how many MPW should one run in MAF range to get maximum benifits? Or is there a number? I want to increase my miles... but want to do so smartly, so I can do it easily and without getting hurt.
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myspace
Higher Chakra Jewlery When running through swarms of love bugs, it has nothing to do with love, but if you just keep running, at least they can't land on you! [This message has been edited by runningforfreedom (edited Jun-04-2007).]
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leitnerj
Cool Runner |
posted Jun-04-2007 11:23 PM
quote:
Originally posted by Long Run Nick:
Jesse,
Thanks. Also a bigger thanks for the time and effort you put in on this forum. I appreciate you and your efforts. Good luck with your sinus surgery.As you know I will continue to struggle a little with the formula, but I know getting folks to slow down to speed up works. Again, thanks. Nick
No problem, Nick - this is fun stuff! Too much fun. I'm happy to
iterate with you until we find that optimal training zone! ------------------
MyRunningLog
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leitnerj
Cool Runner |
posted Jun-04-2007 11:30 PM
There's not really a "too low" but if you want to build up
"aerobic speed" you should be making sure you pick up
your speed when you are going downhill rather than just
keeping pace and letting your HR sink down. Otherwise, you'll
miss the running economy improvements that you need to
get faster. If you set a lower baseline, that should be fine,
as long as you are at a reasonable pace. If your pace is
many minutes per mile slower than your previous typical
running pace, then you should be running as close to the
suggested MAF is possible (which might mean you are
still subtracting 5 or 10 from the 180-age mark, as
applicable).
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MyRunningLog
MyStuff
Low Heart Rate Training FAQ
My marathons and ultras
My races and reports
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jjwaverly42
Cool Runner |
posted Jun-05-2007 10:54 PM
Decided tonight to go back to MAF training. I've been following a scheme of different zones (70%, 80%, 80%, 90%) for the past few months, and even though I've become a little fitter, I don't feel as healthy as I would want. I'm running low mileage and certain muscles are feeling a bit stressed from doing a weekly tempo run, and a weekly long run that maxes out at my MAF +30. The injury I sustained last fall (PF) has improved greatly with the strengthening--stretching--yoga--nightly hot epsom salt soak--3 days a week in Nike Frees-- routine I've been doing for the last 8 weeks. Pretty much gone, but not totally--never feel it in the morning or during the day walking, just mildly after the long run. I also am not dropping any weight, still at 175. So the assessment is that I fall into the category where I have to subtract 5 beats from 180-age (180-46=134). For me that would be 129. Actually, I used that ceiling during my last MAF period, figuring it would help me through the 100-mile weeks. It did. I have few races here and there along the way (about 5-6 short ones thru December), and will attempt to remain under 129 bpm the rest of the time.
As an experiment, I am not AVERAGE 129 as a ceiling (that usually means a span of 128-132). 129 is THE CEILING. If I see 130, I'm slowing down. My long term goal is to run the Boston Marathon in 2008 (already qualified), and BQ at Boston, and then have a healthy late spring and fall race season. That gives me 10 months until Boston. 2007 will be about rebuilding myself into an aerobic machine. No huge hops in volume, nothing crazy. A mild 5-10% increase in mileage every week, with a cutback every 4th. I'll keep ya posted on my progress. Thanks for all your posts. Keeps me going. --Jimmy Jog Log
zzzzzzz
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Who Dey
Cool Runner |
posted Jun-06-2007 07:51 AM
Jimmy ... Your post prompts me to ask a question that I'm afraid I know the answer to ...  I'm in a similar situation ... 47 yrs old and trying to recover from a bad case of PF and/or sesamoiditis. I've been working at running below MAF (180-47=133). My injury has been getting better except that it has flared up the last couple of days. Because of injury, is it recommended that I subtract 5 bpm from my MAF ... bringing it down to 128?
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gurutc
Cool Runner |
posted Jun-06-2007 08:36 AM
* Sin Confession *I stayed humble, did the low-HR regimen, got fast (even ranked locally), and switched over to the Dark Side by focusing on training short and fast. I still kept my long runs, but... Oh the Humanity! I had the first DNF of my life in an Ultra over the weekend. I know what I must do. Another 1000 or so slow HR miles and my sins are resolved. Slow and long, not cheating on the HR, is the only way to go! - gurutc
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jjwaverly42
Cool Runner |
posted Jun-06-2007 09:55 AM
quote:
Originally posted by Who Dey:
Jimmy ... Your post prompts me to ask a question that I'm afraid I know the answer to ... I'm in a similar situation ... 47 yrs old and trying to recover from a bad case of PF and/or sesamoiditis. I've been working at running below MAF (180-47=133). My injury has been getting better except that it has flared up the last couple of days. Because of injury, is it recommended that I subtract 5 bpm from my MAF ... bringing it down to 128?
Don't be afraid of 128. I worked in that area last fall, and was able to build volume, and my paces improved AND I made huge PR's at the half and full marathon. Go there with me--let's gooooooooooo! 128-ville here we come! The way I see it, if I'm going to give a program the ol' Jimbo try, then I might as well follow what the coach says. If I run at the 129 for a year, and I am healthy (no colds or injuries), and I PR some races, then I get 180-age PLUS 5 beats for good MAF behavior. The truth is that my foot may be at 95%, but that is not 100%. Dr. Maffetone is telling me I am not healthy, thus I need to train in a way that gets me healthy. I may be fit enough to match my PR in a 5k, but that doesn't mean I am healthy. I'm commited to creating a healthy 2008, and a good time at Boston. It's all up to you, but think about it. You are not healthy. For your PF, you might think about trying what I am doing. It is working wonders. Read the article in Runners World, do the exercises religiously. I do the balancing plus other balances in yoga: Build Stronger Feet --soak your feet nightly in the hottest water you can stand (mixed with a half cup of Epsom salts) for 30 minutes.After 15 minutes, pick up marbles with your toes while soaking in the water. Massage. Wiggle your toes. After the soak do the plantar stretch (should do this stretch 3 times a day). The hot water will get blood into the area. The plantar tendon isn't very blood rich, and this will help. I got the idea from a running friend who cured it in a few months using a heating pad. Ice after a run if you feel any pain. Apply hot later on. --I use the Nike Free on 3 short runs a week. If you decide to try this shoe, be very careful. You have to start out with a little each week. 1st week is just walking around the house, building to a mile, then two... you get it. My belief is that I had a weakness in my right foot that put too much stress on the plantar, and by ignoring the rules of recovery that have served me so well, I exposed the weakness. I believe strengthening, stretching, nutrient-filled blood and MAF training will return me to a healthy state. Good luck, Who Dey. Don't fear being slow or having to walk. If you stick with it, and think long term, you'll be amzing yourself before you know it. --Jimmy P.S. Are you related to Laurie Partridge? Jog Log
zzzzzzz [This message has been edited by jjwaverly42 (edited Jun-06-2007).]
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runningforfreedom
Cool Runner |
posted Jun-06-2007 10:06 AM
Quck question here... this is my first week of MAF training, and the first time I have ever trained like this... there are a few times during my alst 2 runs that my HR went a bit over my MAF max... the spikes have all been temporary, and as soon as I saw my HR climb, I backed my speed down. I have heard that this is normal for the first little bit... What I'm wondering is should I go a bit slower so that my spikes are below my MAF, or just try and stay below as much as possible and when I see spikes slow down?
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Who Dey
Cool Runner |
posted Jun-06-2007 10:56 AM
quote:
Originally posted by jjwaverly42:
Go there with me--let's gooooooooooo! 128-ville here we come!
I was finally getting comfortable with 133 and now I'm headed to Mall Walker-ville. Sigh. quote:
I'm commited to creating a healthy 2008, and a good time at Boston.
I'm not headed to Boston (not yet anyway), but I can relate to wanting to have a healthy year. Injury has disrupted my running goals for several years and it is very frustrating.I'm about to head out for a run and I'll give 128 a try. I'll also look over the exercises you mentioned and try the soak. The truth, however, is that I'm very bad about finding the time to just ice my foot. I'll have to be very disciplined about the soaking. quote:
P.S. Are you related to Laurie Partridge?
Ahhhh, Susan! I hope we're not related because if we are, I was a VERY bad boy as an adolescent ...  (Actually, Mom was my "favorite".)
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jjwaverly42
Cool Runner |
posted Jun-06-2007 10:57 AM
quote:
Originally posted by runningforfreedom:
Quck question here... this is my first week of MAF training, and the first time I have ever trained like this... there are a few times during my alst 2 runs that my HR went a bit over my MAF max... the spikes have all been temporary, and as soon as I saw my HR climb, I backed my speed down. I have heard that this is normal for the first little bit... What I'm wondering is should I go a bit slower so that my spikes are below my MAF, or just try and stay below as much as possible and when I see spikes slow down?
If the spike is just a blip--don't slow. But if the number hangs out for awhile and/or returns there, slow down. Best to have the ceiling be the ceiling. All blips and spikes being the MAF.
--Jimmy Jog Log
zzzzzzz
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Who Dey
Cool Runner |
posted Jun-06-2007 11:03 AM
Runningforfreedom,I run hilly routes during the week and try as I might it is very difficult to completely avoid "spikes". I don't worry about it, but I also try to get my HR below MAF as soon as possible. Sometimes this means resorting to a walk if the hill is especially steep and/or long.
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martinjames
Cool Runner |
posted Jun-06-2007 11:30 AM
Can I offer a quick counterpoint to the "I'm hurt so I need to run slower" theory? That's a rhetorical question because I'm going to offer it anyway. Then I'm going to solicit responses to my counterpoint. When I went low HR last year, it was partially based on the fact that I had hurt my knee and hip. I was new to running and probably going to fast on a daily basis. It worked. My paces improved blah blah blah. You know the drill. So in the past month or so I've tried to slow down again, back to the very low HRs that I used last year. I swear that by slowing down, I've created more stress on the hip and it's gone yucko on me again. I noticed that running downhill when I'm really trying to brake it's worse. I will admit that I've also tried to "improve" my form by landing more midfoot. So now I've decided to modify my plans by speeding up a bit. Sure it brings my HR up to 75% max (or, using Karvonen 65% max), but I feel like it's less stressful than constantly braking to stay below an arbitrary HR. Maybe it's all in my head, but it seems to be working. (Note, by most measures, that's still easy.) So maybe there's an argument that going too slow can also lead to injury. Anyone else ever experienced that?
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Who Dey
Cool Runner |
posted Jun-06-2007 12:43 PM
Martinjames,There is truth IMO to what you are saying. When I slow down to my sub-MAF wog, especially going up hills, I notice that I have a tendency to push off with my toes more than I normally would ... that ends up putting more stress on my calf, achilles, maybe plantar fascia(?). Also, pre-Maffetone I tended to coast on the downhills, effectively resting. Now I run the downhills faster than I used to ... and I can see how that faster downhill running could lead to injury. Depends, of course, on the nature of the hills, how long you've been doing it, etc..
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jjwaverly42
Cool Runner |
posted Jun-06-2007 01:40 PM
Started with an MAF test.
My MAF is 129.
I kept my HR between 127-129. Allowing 10 second blips of 130, anything longer, I slowed down. If I saw 131 at all, I slowed down. If I saw 126 for longer than 10 seconds, I sped up. Trying to average 128 or 129 per mile.MAF TEST 6/6/07
temp70º humidity 52%
weight: 173.8
treadmill with fan on low Warm-up
6:40 ....94.....(4.5 speed at 0% incline)
6:17....102....(4.6-5.0 speed at 0% incline)
5:41....112....(5.1-5.5 speed at 1% incline)
5:06....124....(5.5-6.0 speed at 1% incline)
Time: 23:45
Pace: 11:53 test:
10:10...129....(started at 6.0 speed)
10:34...128
10:48...128
11:03...129
11:19...128....(ended at 5.2 speed) Ave Pace 10:47
Total Time 53:54
decay in pace miles 1-5 :11.31% I thought it was going to be a lot worse. I used to do my MAF runs at 141.
They weren't much better than that in the beginning. I had on in Feb 2006 that averaged 10:35 pace using the 141 ceiling. I have a 5k race that I've been working for on Saturday. That'll be a good time to have to compare later 5k's after months of this training. Keep going! --Jimmy Jog Log
zzzzzzz
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jjwaverly42
Cool Runner |
posted Jun-06-2007 01:58 PM
quote:
Originally posted by martinjames:
Can I offer a quick counterpoint to the "I'm hurt so I need to run slower" theory? That's a rhetorical question because I'm going to offer it anyway. Then I'm going to solicit responses to my counterpoint. When I went low HR last year, it was partially based on the fact that I had hurt my knee and hip. I was new to running and probably going to fast on a daily basis. It worked. My paces improved blah blah blah. You know the drill. So in the past month or so I've tried to slow down again, back to the very low HRs that I used last year. I swear that by slowing down, I've created more stress on the hip and it's gone yucko on me again. I noticed that running downhill when I'm really trying to brake it's worse. I will admit that I've also tried to "improve" my form by landing more midfoot. So now I've decided to modify my plans by speeding up a bit. Sure it brings my HR up to 75% max (or, using Karvonen 65% max), but I feel like it's less stressful than constantly braking to stay below an arbitrary HR. Maybe it's all in my head, but it seems to be working. (Note, by most measures, that's still easy.) So maybe there's an argument that going too slow can also lead to injury. Anyone else ever experienced that?
MAF worked for you when you were injured. There ya go. I doubt it's going to injure you if you try it again. The stress you are feeling this time when you tried it might be other things like trying to create a new footfall, or it could be the braking going downhill (brakedancing downhill is even worse). Why are you braking going downhill? That's the time to work on increasing turnover (shorten the stride and let gravity take you over). I wasn't looking for any counterpoint on my decision to implement the MAF training program. As far as I'm concerned, I'm diving in, using the categories suggested in the program for training. I've been through all the arguments with people on other "challenge" threads that basically say this method is bullpoop, doesn't work, makes you slow, there is no science to back it up, changes your stride, etc. I prefer to just do the program, and let my PR's do the talking. Good luck with your HR program. I wish you the very best, progress, and PR's!!! Stay healthy! --Jimmy Jog Log
zzzzzzz
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martinjames
Cool Runner |
posted Jun-06-2007 04:24 PM
quote:
Originally posted by jjwaverly42:
MAF worked for you when you were injured. There ya go. I doubt it's going to injure you if you try it again. The stress you are feeling this time when you tried it might be other things like trying to create a new footfall, or it could be the braking going downhill (brakedancing downhill is even worse). Why are you braking going downhill? That's the time to work on increasing turnover (shorten the stride and let gravity take you over). I wasn't looking for any counterpoint on my decision to implement the MAF training program. As far as I'm concerned, I'm diving in, using the categories suggested in the program for training. I've been through all the arguments with people on other "challenge" threads that basically say this method is bullpoop, doesn't work, makes you slow, there is no science to back it up, changes your stride, etc. I prefer to just do the program, and let my PR's do the talking. Good luck with your HR program. I wish you the very best, progress, and PR's!!! Stay healthy! --Jimmy Jog Log
zzzzzzz
The counterpoint was more general. Who Dey was really the person who prompted my comment. I'm not a pooper. I'm a big fan of the low HR philosophy (Hadd, not Maff) and admire Jesse's impressive results. But for this thread, I probably would have quit running a year ago. At the same time, I'm not as extreme as Jesse and I am genuinely concerned that going too slow can cause injury. Am I on dope? I don't know. It's why I solicited input. Maybe there's a smarter way to run slow. Again, dunno. S'why I ask. Oh, and I brake going downhill because if I didn't, I'd propel myself into oblivion. I do the faster turnover and all that, but I still can't just let 'er rip and let gravity take over. I'm sure that I'm also braking when I try to keep my pace down. I'm thinking that I'm better off just running comfortably even if it is a little faster.
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runningforfreedom
Cool Runner |
posted Jun-06-2007 05:43 PM
I just wanted to say thank you to all who have been responding to my questions regurading MAF running... today I did an hour and a half at MAF, and found the last 10 minutes RAELLY hard not to spike... Had a couple of spikes over my MAF of 146... but this is the first week for me also... so hopefully I'm doing this okay. the spikes were not for long... just a minute or so or less. I'm still trying to figure out the speed I need to be at for this... so am having to check my HR often. right now I'm using the HRM on the TM's... until I can get one of my own, though I think my running will probably still be inside due to high heat and humidity, I think I'd have to walk to keep under MAF outside right now. Anyway, I think my legs are doing okay with this, but it is a chalenge mentally... good training for my mind 
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willamona
Cool Runner |
posted Jun-06-2007 06:27 PM
I recovered from PF while Maffing. I do not believe that it causes injury. I believe this type of pace does just the opposite; it strengthens everything. I have definition in my legs that I have not seen before in my lifetime. I can take a fairly good pounding on the road and come back the next day for more. This is just my opinion though. I really have nothing to back it up beyond my anecdotal evidence. ------------------
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aharmer
Cool Runner |
posted Jun-06-2007 06:44 PM
I believe it is very common to feel leg soreness in the initial stages of Maff training. It makes sense, you're using different muscle fibers when running much more slowly than you're used to. The first time you ran very fast you were probably sore as well. My soreness went away in about three weeks, I've heard others say the same. Barring very unique circumstances you are not going to injure yourself by slowing your pace.------------------
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slowgino
Cool Runner |
posted Jun-07-2007 02:25 PM
quote:
Originally posted by martinjames:
I swear that by slowing down, I've created more stress on the hip and it's gone yucko on me again. I noticed that running downhill when I'm really trying to brake it's worse. I will admit that I've also tried to "improve" my form by landing more midfoot.
...
So maybe there's an argument that going too slow can also lead to injury. Anyone else ever experienced that?
In 2005 I had a nagging hip problem that got so bad in the middle of my second relay leg of Hood-to-Coast that I had to slow to a walk. Then I found out that if I ran faster the pain went away, so I completed the leg at a faster pace... pain free. I later concluded the problem was running form. At a faster pace my cadence was higher and the body's center of mass was more level. For me, running in a more biomechanically efficient way (cadence, posture, footstrike, rear extension, heel lift, slight forward body lean, etc...) has me running faster and without injury, but it also means that I have to stop and walk periodically since I'm starting over on the MAF-style low heart rate training. I have a hard time keeping proper form when going real slow... maybe it just takes time.
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tpenn40
Cool Runner |
posted Jun-09-2007 02:16 PM
I haven't started LHR training; however I am now wearing a HRM during my runs and wanted to know what % max HR would be considered "race pace"? It seems that the LHR training is the best way to build aerobic base but I think I also need to learn to deal with the pain of exerting at an intense level for a long period of time. Any input would be appreciated.
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willamona
Cool Runner |
posted Jun-09-2007 06:31 PM
Wow Tony. The Hadd article in the FAQ has some suggestions for race paces. If you have Pfitz's Advanced Marathoning, he has some basic stuff in there. I know there are more sources, I just can't think of them right now. I am sure others will chime in tho.... ------------------
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tpenn40
Cool Runner |
posted Jun-09-2007 08:13 PM
quote:
Originally posted by willamona:
Wow Tony. The Hadd article in the FAQ has some suggestions for race paces. If you have Pfitz's Advanced Marathoning, he has some basic stuff in there. I know there are more sources, I just can't think of them right now. I am sure others will chime in tho....
Well Hi Willa! Imagine meetin' you in a place like this LOL! I'll check out your FAQ & look at the article. Thanks
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willamona
Cool Runner |
posted Jun-09-2007 08:22 PM
Well, technically, it's Jesse's (leitnerj) FAQ. I just support the effort.------------------
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tpenn40
Cool Runner |
posted Jun-09-2007 09:00 PM
Ok - what I read makes it sound like performance has a lot to do with increasing your lactate threshold...and not much to do with being able to run hard when it hurts.I wonder if this applies to new runners.
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