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Basebuilding, low heart rate training, a la Maffetone and Mark Allen


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Author Topic:   Basebuilding, low heart rate training, a la Maffetone and Mark Allen
Who Dey
Cool Runner
posted May-29-2007 12:58 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Who Dey     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Docster and Aharmer,

Thank you for the replies. Friday's run was a definite low point for me, but I was pleased with Monday's run. I am commited to giving "The Program" a fair shake. I am also commited to honestly sharing my Newbie highs and lows in hope that other Newbies might find some solace.

For today's lunch-time run, it was 80 degress and 60% humidity. I've gotten much better at modulating my pace/HR over hill and dale. With the rising temps, it's difficult for me to compare runs on the same course, but I definitely feel like I've made some progress.

Yet, one milestone has eluded me. It's been 4 weeks and I have yet to pass another runner! Oh, I can't wait till that day!

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RacingThoughts
Member
posted May-29-2007 02:59 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for RacingThoughts     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Just started my third week... seeing some progress so far, mainly in the form of less walking and more running @ my maf HR. My fastest miles are in the high 13s and my average pace has improved from mid 15s to mid 14s. Not saying it's all due to maf training, a lot of it probably has to do with my body getting used to running again and to being out in the heat. I ended up doing 9 miles my first week and 9.4 last week.

Unfortunately, I tweaked my lower back after operating some heavy machinery this past Saturday and have had to rest until today. I probably won't be putting in as many miles this week, but hopefully I'll be back to 100% next week.

[This message has been edited by RacingThoughts (edited May-29-2007).]

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leitnerj
Cool Runner
posted May-29-2007 06:25 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for leitnerj   Click Here to Email leitnerj     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Actually, I did just run a 10k last weekend, but it's not
a great metric since it was the last part of a tri and I
was screaming high on a hillacious 25 mile bike course
just before the run
(here's the whole thing, if you want to see it:
http://trail.motionbased.com/trail/activity/2786932
bike and run combined). The time was 45:04 but it
was also one of the hilliest 10k road races you'll ever
find. I'd say if I ran a 10k all-out on a good day, I'd
hit about 41:30-42:15.

Nice to see a positive in your run, who dey, and sorry
about your back problems, racingthoughts.

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leitnerj
Cool Runner
posted May-29-2007 09:10 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for leitnerj   Click Here to Email leitnerj     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
A little more detail on my 10k times. I hit 42:29 for the first
6.24 miles of the Cherry Blossom 10 miler last year. In my
last 2 marathons, I hit the 10k point in about 43:40. I'm pretty
sure I will not hit a 5k PR in any race other than a 5k. My best
10k time will probably never be more than a minute or two
better than my first 10k split in a marathon.

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jjwaverly42
Cool Runner
posted May-30-2007 11:55 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for jjwaverly42     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Had a good 90 minute run today. Made 9 miles:
72º/43% humidity sunny

11:27 106
10:14 124
9:58 132
10:14 142 (hill)
9:46 140
9:25 143 (downhill)
9:32 150
9:32 150
9:43 151

That's a 9:49 pace (minus 1st mile). Compare to my last four 90 minute runs (done mostly on Wednesdays):
phr (peak average HR)

date..mi......avpace...phr....%MHR..temp....place
4/24...8.23...10:51...150....75%....73º/29%....bike trail
5/2.....8.38...10:33....148....74%....57º/58%...bike trail
5/9.....8.50...10:28....160.....80%....79º/33%...bike trail
5/23...8.35...10:37....149.....75%....69º/41%....bike trail
5/30..9.00......9:49....151.....76%...72º/43%...bike trail

Made 40 miles last week. Getting there.


--Jimmy

Jog Log
zzzzzzz

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Ace8
Member
posted May-30-2007 12:02 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Ace8     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by leitnerj:
I'm sorry to hear that. Yes, there is much you can do on the elliptical -
just make sure you keep your heart rate up. Stay within 5-10 beats
of MAF - no lower than that, otherwise, your benefits will be limited.
If you can keep right on MAF, that would probably be the most beneficial.
It may require you to work hard. Good luck.



Thanks for the response and to Jimmy's response. I believe I learned how to use my wife's foam roller correctly and the ITBS seems to be fading away. We'll see tonight when I give jogging another try.

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dcv2002
Cool Runner
posted May-30-2007 01:53 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for dcv2002     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Just when things started to look good, I think I might have hit a snag. My last couple of runs have all been consistently under 10mpm (around 915-920mpm). So this morning planning a 6 miler, going along at a good pace, HR is low, but a calf problem that has been hanging around popped up so I had to stop 2.2 miles in. Still store. Frustrating, as it would have been a good run.

What was funny is that I managed to walk/shuffle home (1.85 miles) @ 11:11mpm in a low average HR of 120. My 1st two runs 6 weeks ago were at 11:40mpm at AHR 143. I have a half marathon in 10 weeks so I have to play if cautiously. Maybe its the 15 lbs I've put on. Maybe its the change in stride from running slower, or maybe its was the 3 months off that "tightened" up my muscle. Oh well, hopefully I'll be back soon.

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labhiker
Cool Runner
posted May-31-2007 06:43 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for labhiker     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Having been trying to follow a MAF based training program for some time now (1.5 years +), I feel ready to commit to my first marathon in the Fall. In doing so my primary interest is not to train for this first 26.2 mile run, but rather a long-term vision of many marathons. Being in my mid 40s, I want to do it wisely and remain injury free.

In preparing for the Fall I think it is necessary to commit to an appropriate training program.

In the past I have never followed a formal or structured marathon training program and have simply worked towards logging an average weekly total of 30-35mpw (longer runs on Sat & Sun). Last Fall I started working with the Cool Running Intermediate program, yet picked up some knee issues after pushing beyond 20mile long run (foolishly thought I could run something like 10 on Sat and then a "fast paced" 22 mile run on Sun. It ended up being a stupid training idea for a newbie.)

How does everyone feel about the Higdon Intermediate II program? It seems like a structured program with weekend long runs and moderate mid-week distance. Im currently in week 3 which a down week with little miles.

My thought is to follow the HH program for mileage structure only, and run allat an average pace of MAF - 5-10bpm. Does this sound OK? My concern is that Higdon makes a lot of reference in his book Marathon and training programs to running many runs at "marathon pace".

If you avoid all so called speed work, how to your target marathon pace? Im currently thinking of not worrying too much about pace and running on HR only, however pace may vary based on effort?

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leitnerj
Cool Runner
posted May-31-2007 06:51 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for leitnerj   Click Here to Email leitnerj     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Higdon's intermediate is as good as any. Whether you do speedwork,
tempos, and/or marathon-paced runs is a matter of personal choice.
If you're planning on running many marathons and you're not thinking
of each one as your last, then what difference does it make if you do
any marathon-paced runs? In either case, Higdon does not recommend
marathon-paced long runs. If someone is well-developed aerobically,
marathon-paced runs won't hurt anything at all, even 3 times/wk. However,
if one is still developing the aerobic system, it will tend to push things
in the opposite direction. Nonetheless, after a solid 12, 16, or whatever
weeks of basebuilding, it's completely typical and expected to move into
a full-fledged training program for whatever you're doing, so there's nothing
wrong with that. Given that I don't do any marathon paced runs in training
(but I run a good number of marathons), this may be hypocritical, but I
think if you just run a handful of miles per week at marathon pace, that
would be more than sufficient to keep you used to that sort of thing. The
best approach I would suggest in that regard is the McMillan-style
fast-finish long run, where you run the last few miles of some of your
long runs at MRP, perhaps picking a peak one where you run, say, the
last 8-10 miles at that pace.

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labhiker
Cool Runner
posted May-31-2007 07:20 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for labhiker     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
thanks for the prompt response.

my biggest concern has been to attempt this type of thing not knowing if I ever maximized aerobic fitness. I have been afraid to try some faster pace pickups at the end of a few longer runs thinking it would erode/ destroy the benefits of slow-paced MAF training runs.

In general, Im thinking of running structured miles per HH program and picking up the pace towards the last 25% of a few long runs.


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leitnerj
Cool Runner
posted May-31-2007 07:30 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for leitnerj   Click Here to Email leitnerj     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by labhiker:
thanks for the prompt response.

my biggest concern has been to attempt this type of thing not knowing if I ever maximized aerobic fitness. I have been afraid to try some faster pace pickups at the end of a few longer runs thinking it would erode/ destroy the benefits of slow-paced MAF training runs.

In general, Im thinking of running structured miles per HH program and picking up the pace towards the last 25% of a few long runs.


Sounds like a good approach. If you keep the higher end stuff to
no more than about 5-10% of your overall volume, it should not have
a significant detrimental effect. However, as always, I suggest that you
should do your best to try to get most of your faster training on downhills
if you can so that you can get the running economy while still staying
in the aerobic regime.

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martinjames
Cool Runner
posted May-31-2007 07:32 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for martinjames   Click Here to Email martinjames     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by labhiker:
Having been trying to follow a MAF based training program for some time now (1.5 years +), I feel ready to commit to my first marathon in the Fall. In doing so my primary interest is not to train for this first 26.2 mile run, but rather a long-term vision of many marathons. Being in my mid 40s, I want to do it wisely and remain injury free.

In preparing for the Fall I think it is necessary to commit to an appropriate training program.

In the past I have never followed a formal or structured marathon training program and have simply worked towards logging an average weekly total of 30-35mpw (longer runs on Sat & Sun). Last Fall I started working with the Cool Running Intermediate program, yet picked up some knee issues after pushing beyond 20mile long run (foolishly thought I could run something like 10 on Sat and then a "fast paced" 22 mile run on Sun. It ended up being a stupid training idea for a newbie.)

How does everyone feel about the Higdon Intermediate II program? It seems like a structured program with weekend long runs and moderate mid-week distance. Im currently in week 3 which a down week with little miles.

My thought is to follow the HH program for mileage structure only, and run allat an average pace of MAF - 5-10bpm. Does this sound OK? My concern is that Higdon makes a lot of reference in his book Marathon and training programs to running many runs at "marathon pace".

If you avoid all so called speed work, how to your target marathon pace? Im currently thinking of not worrying too much about pace and running on HR only, however pace may vary based on effort?


I used Higdon novice for my first marathon, but didn't like the intermediate program. I don't like (a) the back-to-back weekend runs -- too much stress with too little recovery (b) the two rest days or (c) the monotony. Other than the every other Saturday pace runs, it's exactly the same every day but for the distance. I

I used Pfitzinger's 55 mpw plan, which is more challenging but offers more variety. Plus his book Advanced Marathoning is really good. I modified the plan to my fitness level. I'm sure I never hit 55 mpw. I'd shave a mile or two here and there (I think the plan was built for someone faster than me) and used his HR recommendations for most of the runs. Prior to starting, I did about 4 weeks of slow mileage following Hadd's guidelines -- a lot for me (@8 hours or 50 mpw)

I honestly don't recall ever doing a "marathon pace" training run. There are some lactate threshold runs that are taxing enough. I also don't believe in long runs beyond 20 miles because the toll they take on me throughout the week prevents me from doing quality runs midweek.

Pfitzinger's guidelines for long runs is to finish at 10% below your planned marathon pace. That's a good workout. I felt well prepared for my marathon and, but for the wind, would have finished within a minute or two of my target.

For my 3d marathon, I went back to Pfitzinger and hit my target (BQ). I recommend that you buy the book and consider that plan.

Just my $.02

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labhiker
Cool Runner
posted May-31-2007 07:40 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for labhiker     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
again, thanks and sorry for so many questions. in working on downhill speed work, would you suggest maxing out my MAF (180-age), or push to my ideal training effort of MAF -5 or 10 bpm?

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leitnerj
Cool Runner
posted May-31-2007 08:50 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for leitnerj   Click Here to Email leitnerj     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by labhiker:
again, thanks and sorry for so many questions. in working on downhill speed work, would you suggest maxing out my MAF (180-age), or push to my ideal training effort of MAF -5 or 10 bpm?

For downhills, go all the way up. If you're going to cheat at any time,
that's the time.

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fortysomething
unregistered
posted May-31-2007 09:14 PM           Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
First, some quick background on me before I pose a question to all in this forum about low heart rate training, a la Maffetone and Mark Allen (and Hadd)...

I've run about 10 marathons, was stuck in the 3:08 range for a while before setting two consecutive PRs of 3:06 and 3:03 at the ages of 39 and 40. I'm now 44, haven't run another marathon since then, but am still dreaming of breaking 3:00 even at this advanced age.

A few years back I was introduced to Hadd's methods, and found renewed hope in a training method that I hadn't tried yet. Unfortunately, I have not yet been able to complete the full Hadd program due to injuries and other factors. I'm now back on track, nearing completion of Hadd's Phase 1... my maximum HR is about 190, I'm looking to run a marathon at an effort of between HR165 and HR170. I'm currently feeling pretty comfortable at HR160, thinking another month or two before HR165-HR170 feels entirely comfortable.

Right now, I'm running right around 7:00 minute pace at HR165, so I'm in the ball park of being able to break 3:00 if I can both feel more comfortable at that effort and quicken my pace just a bit at that effort as well, which brings me to my main question...

Does anyone know anything about Hadd's Phase 2? A couple of years back, I had access to some forums in which Hadd actually was giving personal advice. After not participating in those forums for a while, I somehow got locked out so don't have access to that info/advice anymore. I feel Phase 1 is getting me close to where I need to be, but that I would need Phase 2 to give me the extra strength and speed I would need to be able to maintain a sub 3 hour pace for a full marathon.

I'm looking for any insights on this second phase of Hadd's training that can help me achieve my goal. Can anyone help?

Thanks!

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labhiker
Cool Runner
posted May-31-2007 09:24 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for labhiker     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
thanks Jesse, I look forward to adopting my routine with this training advice. If I'm going to cheat, it will be on the prolonged downhill grades with faster foot turnover.

Basically, both Maffetone and Mittleman seem to preach a similar message - "absorb the uphills with an even level-of-effort and then starting to run or free-wheel on the downhills"

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aharmer
Cool Runner
posted May-31-2007 11:05 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for aharmer   Click Here to Email aharmer     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by fortysomething:
First, some quick background on me before I pose a question to all in this forum about low heart rate training, a la Maffetone and Mark Allen (and Hadd)...

I've run about 10 marathons, was stuck in the 3:08 range for a while before setting two consecutive PRs of 3:06 and 3:03 at the ages of 39 and 40. I'm now 44, haven't run another marathon since then, but am still dreaming of breaking 3:00 even at this advanced age.

A few years back I was introduced to Hadd's methods, and found renewed hope in a training method that I hadn't tried yet. Unfortunately, I have not yet been able to complete the full Hadd program due to injuries and other factors. I'm now back on track, nearing completion of Hadd's Phase 1... my maximum HR is about 190, I'm looking to run a marathon at an effort of between HR165 and HR170. I'm currently feeling pretty comfortable at HR160, thinking another month or two before HR165-HR170 feels entirely comfortable.

Right now, I'm running right around 7:00 minute pace at HR165, so I'm in the ball park of being able to break 3:00 if I can both feel more comfortable at that effort and quicken my pace just a bit at that effort as well, which brings me to my main question...

Does anyone know anything about Hadd's Phase 2? A couple of years back, I had access to some forums in which Hadd actually was giving personal advice. After not participating in those forums for a while, I somehow got locked out so don't have access to that info/advice anymore. I feel Phase 1 is getting me close to where I need to be, but that I would need Phase 2 to give me the extra strength and speed I would need to be able to maintain a sub 3 hour pace for a full marathon.

I'm looking for any insights on this second phase of Hadd's training that can help me achieve my goal. Can anyone help?

Thanks!


fortysomething,

Check out my blog, it details my training program which was tailored around Hadd's program. I don't have his link anymore. You and I are very similar in age and speed, I'm attempting to break 3 as well in a couple weeks. Shoot me an email if you have any questions about it.

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"Pain is temporary. Regret hurts forever."
http://www.hrmarathontraining.blogspot.com/

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Docster
Cool Runner
posted Jun-01-2007 09:56 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Docster     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by leitnerj:
Higdon's intermediate is as good as any. Whether you do speedwork,
tempos, and/or marathon-paced runs is a matter of personal choice.
If you're planning on running many marathons and you're not thinking
of each one as your last, then what difference does it make if you do
any marathon-paced runs? In either case, Higdon does not recommend
marathon-paced long runs. If someone is well-developed aerobically,
marathon-paced runs won't hurt anything at all, even 3 times/wk. However,
if one is still developing the aerobic system, it will tend to push things
in the opposite direction. Nonetheless, after a solid 12, 16, or whatever
weeks of basebuilding, it's completely typical and expected to move into
a full-fledged training program for whatever you're doing, so there's nothing
wrong with that. Given that I don't do any marathon paced runs in training
(but I run a good number of marathons), this may be hypocritical, but I
think if you just run a handful of miles per week at marathon pace, that
would be more than sufficient to keep you used to that sort of thing. The
best approach I would suggest in that regard is the McMillan-style
fast-finish long run, where you run the last few miles of some of your
long runs at MRP, perhaps picking a peak one where you run, say, the
last 8-10 miles at that pace.



I couldn't agree more with running a few (not *every* long run) of your long runs, with say, the last 3rd at marathon pace. It gives you both the confidence that you can maintain that pace after running for a few hours, and it also gives you some of the physical and mental strain you can expect without the huge recovery from running the entire run at that pace.

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Docster
Cool Runner
posted Jun-01-2007 10:35 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Docster     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by leitnerj:
Higdon's intermediate is as good as any. Whether you do speedwork,
tempos, and/or marathon-paced runs is a matter of personal choice.
If you're planning on running many marathons and you're not thinking
of each one as your last, then what difference does it make if you do
any marathon-paced runs? In either case, Higdon does not recommend
marathon-paced long runs. If someone is well-developed aerobically,
marathon-paced runs won't hurt anything at all, even 3 times/wk. However,
if one is still developing the aerobic system, it will tend to push things
in the opposite direction. Nonetheless, after a solid 12, 16, or whatever
weeks of basebuilding, it's completely typical and expected to move into
a full-fledged training program for whatever you're doing, so there's nothing
wrong with that. Given that I don't do any marathon paced runs in training
(but I run a good number of marathons), this may be hypocritical, but I
think if you just run a handful of miles per week at marathon pace, that
would be more than sufficient to keep you used to that sort of thing. The
best approach I would suggest in that regard is the McMillan-style
fast-finish long run, where you run the last few miles of some of your
long runs at MRP, perhaps picking a peak one where you run, say, the
last 8-10 miles at that pace.



I couldn't agree more with running the MP speed finish on long runs. (not every long run, though) They gave me confidence in being able to maintain that pace after running for 2+ hours, and it also gave me a reminder of the effort it takes, both mentally and physically.

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martinjames
Cool Runner
posted Jun-01-2007 01:27 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for martinjames   Click Here to Email martinjames     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
There's at least some portion of the thread that's still accessible. http://www.letsrun.com/forum/flat_read.php?thread=42240&page=7.

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willamona
Cool Runner
posted Jun-01-2007 01:48 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for willamona     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Hadd is right in the FAQ.

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Long Run Nick
Cool Runner
posted Jun-03-2007 08:20 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Long Run Nick   Click Here to Email Long Run Nick     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Please don't shoot the questioner. I am struggling with the MAF formula that completely ignores one's maximum heart rate. If someone is 40 yrs old their MAF is 140. If their Max HR is 175--they run "ez" at 35 beats less than their max. Myself at 63 (soon to be 64) my MAF is 117--I give myself an extra 5 for 3 decades and 60K + miles which results in my MAF being 122. The problem is my max is 200! Therefore my "ez" runs are 78 beats less than my max. How can the 40 yr old be running "EZ" when he is running 35 beats from his max ( 80% of his MHR) while I am running "EZ" at 78 beats from my max (61% of my MHR)? Now that type of formulation doesn't make any more sense than the old 220 minus your age formula for max heart rate for 2/3 of the population.

How can max hr be ignored? If we all had the same max hr the MAF formula would put everyone on the same footing. As we all know our max hr vary a lot. I will be interested in learning why max heart rates is not a factor. As my example above shows one person runs at 80%--which in any formula is probably too intense for normal aerobic training while my 61% is a tad too easy. Help me justify why I would have to run around 60% of my max while my 40 yr old friend runs at 80%. Just doesn't seem to make much sense. Thanks. Nick

PS I have long been a strong supporter of building a strong aerobic base by running 2-3 minutes slower than 5K/10K pace. I have probably run 90-95% of my miles around 70% maxHR. That may be a factor in amassing nearly 64,000 relatively injury free miles over the last 31 years. I like the concept of ez base building just can't buy the one formula fits all.

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Long Run Nick
Cool Runner
posted Jun-03-2007 08:21 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Long Run Nick   Click Here to Email Long Run Nick     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Please don't shoot the questioner. I am struggling with the MAF formula that completely ignores one's maximum heart rate. If someone is 40 yrs old their MAF is 140. If their Max HR is 175--they run "ez" at 35 beats less than their max. Myself at 63 (soon to be 64) my MAF is 117--I give myself an extra 5 for 3 decades and 60K + miles which results in my MAF being 122. The problem is my max is 200! Therefore my "ez" runs are 78 beats less than my max. How can the 40 yr old be running "EZ" when he is running 35 beats from his max ( 80% of his MHR) while I am running "EZ" at 78 beats from my max (61% of my MHR)? Now that type of formulation doesn't make any more sense than the old 220 minus your age formula for max heart rate for 2/3 of the population.

How can max hr be ignored? If we all had the same max hr the MAF formula would put everyone on the same footing. As we all know our max hr vary a lot. I will be interested in learning why max heart rates is not a factor. As my example above shows one person runs at 80%--which in any formula is probably too intense for normal aerobic training while my 61% is a tad too easy. Help me justify why I would have to run around 60% of my max while my 40 yr old friend runs at 80%. Just doesn't seem to make much sense. Thanks. Nick

PS I have long been a strong supporter of building a strong aerobic base by running 2-3 minutes slower than 5K/10K pace. I have probably run 90-95% of my miles around 70% maxHR. That may be a factor in amassing nearly 64,000 relatively injury free miles over the last 31 years. I like the concept of ez base building just can't buy the one formula fits all.

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leitnerj
Cool Runner
posted Jun-03-2007 08:35 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for leitnerj   Click Here to Email leitnerj     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
HI Nick! Keeping in mind that MAF has virtually nothing to do
with max heart rate, I'll first I'll point you to a few of the FAQ items:

-------------------

14. My max heart rate is very high – should I use a higher MAF heart rate?

No, not unless your max is over 300. Why? Because there can be a lot of heart beats between your anaerobic threshold (the point where you become fully anaerobic) and your maximum heart rate, none of which will give you much to work with for endurance.

15. My max heart rate is very low – should I use a lower MAF heart rate?

Quite possibly. It’s always safer to stay on the low end. If you know that you have a very low max heart rate, I'd recommend you take a look at the Hadd article,
section 6, to select a low heart rate target.

16. How many beats do I let my heart rate climb when I go up steep hills?

None – you need to stay strictly under. This means that in the early stages you may have to walk even gentle hills or you may want to stay on the treadmill until you build your conditioning. Or you may want to experiment with how you can slow yourself down and control heart rate up hills.

17. How could this be better than something more personalized, such as %max heart rate?

In many cases, the numbers will be similar, but % max heart rate doesn’t take fitness into account at all, whereas this method does, and furthermore, for those with high max heart rates but low to moderate fitness, the anaerobic threshold will most likely occur at lower heart rates than those with high fitness and low max heart rates (at a given age).

18. Is this the same as running at x% of heart rate reserve or of max heart rate?

Since max heart rate doesn’t account for fitness, it is not the same. It is somewhat the opposite from using heart rate reserve (HRR) because an HRR approach will have someone running at a higher heart rate if he/she were ill or less well-conditioned (with higher resting heart rate), while this approach does the opposite. Also, for many people the HRR lower limit will be at a heart rate high enough to where more of the anaerobic than the aerobic system is used.

-------------

Bottom line, unless your max heart rate is very low (in which case,
anaerobic threshold is very, very low), the max heart rate is of little
relevance at all for aerobic fitness. If max heart rate is very high
and anaerobic threshold is somewhere up near max heart rate (very
rare - I've never seen a case of this), then the person is an aerobic
beast and it really doesn't matter what heart rate he is running at -
he will have most of his speed at his disposal for endurance activities.
Take me, for example. My max heart rate is 210+. I did most of
my initial basebuilding at about 135 and I run mostly at 140 or below.

Now, with that said, I know that I've mentioned a number of times that
given that you are over your mid-50s, you'll need to play around to find
the right number for you - I wouldn't really trust a formula. I know this
is burning you up inside! In that case, you'll really need to get a vo2max
test done so that you can truly find out how much fat you burn at your
range of heart rates and where your anaerobic threshold occurs.
Alternatively, just find a heart rate where you can run 15-20 miles and
feel like you did very little afterwards - that will give you a good
MAF heart rate. (This assumes that you are already relatively
comfortable with 15-20 mile runs - otherwise, you'll be exhausted).
If you have a vo2max test done, make sure they will be providing
you all of the values of RQ at each intensity level and that they will
bring you beyond an RQ of 1. Otherwise, it's not of great value.

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Long Run Nick
Cool Runner
posted Jun-04-2007 04:53 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Long Run Nick   Click Here to Email Long Run Nick     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Jesse,
Thanks. Also a bigger thanks for the time and effort you put in on this forum. I appreciate you and your efforts. Good luck with your sinus surgery.

As you know I will continue to struggle a little with the formula, but I know getting folks to slow down to speed up works. Again, thanks. Nick

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