posted May-23-2007 08:01 PM               

quote:

---

Originally posted by jjwaverly42:
I don't know if "retain" is the proper word for me in terms of when we started out. I know I started out wth slow paces, then knocked a bunch of time of the training pace at the same HR. After my first layoff of just a few weeks and dropping mileage, my paces dropped a lot. After this recent layoff, I managed to keep some. I did some stationary bike and walking, maybe that helped. Still there was a dropoff of 1-2 minutes on a 5-mile benchmark run. I didn't drop back as far as before though.

As far as my ratio of fast to slow twitch, I haven't a clue as I am afraid of any kind of biopsy,monoopsy, and triopsy. I really don't want to know anyway, it won't get me any more sex than I am now reaping.

--Jimmy

Jog Log
zzzzzzz

---

You can take comfort knowing you're a Level 3 (or 2), genetically.

IP: Logged

posted May-23-2007 10:33 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by martinjames:

You can take comfort knowing you're a Level 3 (or 2), genetically.

---

Actually, genetically, I'm a Momo, but have overachieved to a Nuk-luk.
My dad calls me a Nuklukking Momo. Nuk-luk should not be confused with the comedy level of nuk-nuk-nuk where rolling in circles on the floor using the ear as the central point going "wooo-woo-woo-woo" is what is extremely funny to the one rolling in circles on the floor using the ear as the central point

Levels:

10 Skunk Ape
9 Oh-mah
8 Momo
7 Wookie
6 Grassman
5 Toké-Mussi
4 Woods Devil
3 Sasquatch
2 Nuk-luk
1 Yeti

--Jimmy

Jog Log
zzzzzzz

IP: Logged

posted May-24-2007 09:58 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by Long Run Nick:

Total Effort I would like to chat with you. No search functions. Please e-mail me. Thanks for info. Nick

---

_____

Well here I am. I have the long term base like you only close to 100,000 miles so if I get your drift it is that the long term base creates a different set of issues for you than others?

Glad to help if I can yet my own style is a bit unconventional and sort of always has been. No speed work , no tempo runs, no fartlek work , no marathons , few rest days, no weights , no real running injuries, lots of long slow miles , 35 races a year , virtuallly no carbs. and drink only water. I have always kind of "felt" my way through the entire process . If you still want to chat check your e-mail as I wrote you . Otherwise good luck !!

IP: Logged

posted May-24-2007 10:54 PM            

Anyway... I finished the Ice Age 50 1.5 weeks ago in a PR (9:57).

Prior to this, I could do most of my runs at about 8:40 min/mi pace and my heart rate would be in the low-140s range. Since then, my heart rate has been 140 for 11:00 min/mi pace.

I had strong aerobic conditioning; but the extreme stress of a hard 50 - has put me back (temporarily) close to where I'd be starting from scratch. I'm assuming it'll come back more quickly, but its been slow.

I marvel at how Jesse can recover from his hard efforts so quickly. For me, thrilled to get the PR, but really went anaerobic for quite a while toward the end - and shows why you only want to do this in an important race.

Moral of the story - save your runs over MAF for big races; otherwise - keep the HR down.

IP: Logged

posted May-25-2007 09:12 AM            

1. 12:19 113
2. 11:01 124
3. 10:33 129
4. 11:09 135
5. 11:07 138
6. 10:23 136
7. 9:56 137
8. 9:44 147
9. 9:16 153
10. 9:25 154
11. 9:16 158
12. 9:33 159
13. 9:26 160 80%MHR

Bettered my pace over my last long run of 12 miles two weeks ago (10:18 pace) in same temperature. I got out earlier than usual to beat the 90º heat coming a bit later. It was slow going at first, yet the HR stayed low. As I woke up, I was able to bring the pace faster, and run the last half of the run much faster than the first.

I'm psyched to be back up to 13 miles. It's been a long time.

Positive signs.

--Jimmy

Jog Log
zzzzzzz

IP: Logged

posted May-25-2007 01:21 PM            

Anyway, I will likely have to do much more elliptical training than scheduled. My question is- has anyone here had an injury and was still able to make endurance gains by crosstraining only with no running? I am just hoping if I put the elliptical time at a low heart rate, my below-MAF pace wil be better than it is now when I go back to my regular running schedule.

IP: Logged

posted May-25-2007 01:40 PM               

quote:

---

Originally posted by totaleffort:
_____

Well here I am. I have the long term base like you only close to 100,000 miles so if I get your drift it is that the long term base creates a different set of issues for you than others?

Glad to help if I can yet my own style is a bit unconventional and sort of always has been. No speed work , no tempo runs, no fartlek work , no marathons , few rest days, no weights , no real running injuries, lots of long slow miles , 35 races a year , virtuallly no carbs. and drink only water. I have always kind of "felt" my way through the entire process . If you still want to chat check your e-mail as I wrote you . Otherwise good luck !!

---

Hey Total E--never got your e-mail. I would like to chat with someone who has put in 100,000 miles. Thanks. Nick

IP: Logged

posted May-25-2007 07:05 PM               

quote:

---

Originally posted by Ace8:
I'm on my 18th day of low heart rate training. Unfortunately, I think the shorter strides affected my gait and I've developed ITBS (I thinker the shorter strides were a factor because when I first felt my knee getting tight, I would get some relief going downhill when I could lengthen my stride a bit).

Anyway, I will likely have to do much more elliptical training than scheduled. My question is- has anyone here had an injury and was still able to make endurance gains by crosstraining only with no running? I am just hoping if I put the elliptical time at a low heart rate, my below-MAF pace wil be better than it is now when I go back to my regular running schedule.

---

I'm sorry to hear that. Yes, there is much you can do on the elliptical -
just make sure you keep your heart rate up. Stay within 5-10 beats
of MAF - no lower than that, otherwise, your benefits will be limited.
If you can keep right on MAF, that would probably be the most beneficial.
It may require you to work hard. Good luck.

------------------
MyRunningLog
MyStuff
Low Heart Rate Training FAQ
My marathons and ultras
My races and reports

IP: Logged

posted May-25-2007 07:45 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by Ace8:
I'm on my 18th day of low heart rate training. Unfortunately, I think the shorter strides affected my gait and I've developed ITBS (I thinker the shorter strides were a factor because when I first felt my knee getting tight, I would get some relief going downhill when I could lengthen my stride a bit).

Anyway, I will likely have to do much more elliptical training than scheduled. My question is- has anyone here had an injury and was still able to make endurance gains by crosstraining only with no running? I am just hoping if I put the elliptical time at a low heart rate, my below-MAF pace wil be better than it is now when I go back to my regular running schedule.

---

My friend had a terrible case of ITB. He went to a Rolfer, and poof!
Here's an article he wrote about his experience for our club website:

http://www.rirr.org/rolfing_chrispoulos.html

Maybe it could be for you..

Good luck.

--Jimmy

Jog Log
zzzzzzz

IP: Logged

posted May-25-2007 09:21 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by Long Run Nick:
Hey Total E--never got your e-mail. I would like to chat with someone who has put in 100,000 miles. Thanks. Nick

---

--

I'll get to back to you in due course but my son has the computer tied up with a film editing project for a bit.

IP: Logged

posted May-27-2007 01:57 PM            

I wouldn't call it a run at all.

Unbelievably, I can actually manage some variety of jogging, wogging, slogging shuffle at ... hold you breath... 20.5 minutes/mile at a MAF of 145! It took me an hour and twenty minutes to go 4 miles. Talk about time commitment.

For my own benefit, it was outside and hot (74 degrees) and humid (58 degree dew point and 50% humidity). It really sort of sucks, to be honest with you although I do feel like I could go forever... I'll put the time in, though and after this, I'm moving to the treadmill. The 'hills' just made my heartrate go up too much.

I know this is what is to be expected, but this whole MAF thing sorta sucks at the beginning. I was at least hoping for 17 min/mi...

IP: Logged

posted May-28-2007 01:12 AM               

I typically run long on Saturday. I follow that with a 3-5 mile recovery on Sunday. Mon 5-6 / Tues 8-10 / Wed 5-6 / Thur 5. All runs are under MAF. 4-5 of them on the treadmill, 1-2 outdoors including the long run.

Am I pushing too hard on the long run, or is this somewhat normal. My weekly mileage has been above 30 for the past few months with several weeks mid to upper 30s. Last week I upped it to 41 with a 13.5 long. No muscle soreness at all.

IP: Logged

posted May-28-2007 09:31 AM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by corland14:
2 weeks in a row I've noticed a significant slow down in the 1-3 runs after my long run. By slow down I mean 11min miles on Sunday + Monday at 138-140bpm / 9:30 miles Wed + Thur at 138-140. Tuesday is somewhere in between. Times given are on a treadmill in a controlled temp.

I typically run long on Saturday. I follow that with a 3-5 mile recovery on Sunday. Mon 5-6 / Tues 8-10 / Wed 5-6 / Thur 5. All runs are under MAF. 4-5 of them on the treadmill, 1-2 outdoors including the long run.

Am I pushing too hard on the long run, or is this somewhat normal. My weekly mileage has been above 30 for the past few months with several weeks mid to upper 30s. Last week I upped it to 41 with a 13.5 long. No muscle soreness at all.

---

I usually rest on the day after the long run, instead of the day before. You could try taking that Sunday 3-5, moving it to Friday, then resting on Sunday. Maybe take a 30-minute walk with your wife, husband, sigoth, kids, dog, plants, or pet paramecium (whatever you consider your fam) to stay loose. As you go along, and build, you might not feel sore after a long run, especially running under MAF, but you still might need a good recovery period the next day.

Just keep going. You will see variations along the way that seem to be trends, but are really just part of the ubersystem of mini-peaks and valleys that are all just part of slow, steady improvement towards The Galaxy Of Potentially Realizing Of Your Potent Potential.

--Jimmy

Jog Log
zzzzzzz

IP: Logged

posted May-28-2007 10:19 AM            

------------------
MAF - I. CAN. DO. IT.

I AM A RUNNER

Monika
My User Profile

IP: Logged

posted May-28-2007 12:00 PM               

IP: Logged

posted May-28-2007 07:06 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by Aetheana:
Well, I did my first OFFICIAL MAF run today.

I wouldn't call it a run at all.

Unbelievably, I can actually manage some variety of jogging, wogging, slogging shuffle at ... hold you breath... 20.5 minutes/mile at a MAF of 145! It took me an hour and twenty minutes to go 4 miles. Talk about time commitment.

For my own benefit, it was outside and hot (74 degrees) and humid (58 degree dew point and 50% humidity). It really sort of sucks, to be honest with you although I do feel like I could go forever... I'll put the time in, though and after this, I'm moving to the treadmill. The 'hills' just made my heartrate go up too much.

I know this is what is to be expected, but this whole MAF thing sorta sucks at the beginning. I was at least hoping for 17 min/mi...

---

I started the "MAF" principle two weeks ago, and for simplicity decided to stick to the treadmill for several weeks. I met a friend for a run yesterday at the park, and fully intended to run slow over a flat course in the shade. I found it very difficult to run and my HR shot up well over MAF! I felt so out of shape on the road compared to the treadmill. I run on a top of the line Woodway treadmill, calibrated, etc. Has anyone experienced this discrepancy between treadmills and the road?

Thanks

IP: Logged

posted May-28-2007 07:26 PM               

quote:

---

Originally posted by momintheburbs:

I started the "MAF" principle two weeks ago, and for simplicity decided to stick to the treadmill for several weeks. I met a friend for a run yesterday at the park, and fully intended to run slow over a flat course in the shade. I found it very difficult to run and my HR shot up well over MAF! I felt so out of shape on the road compared to the treadmill. I run on a top of the line Woodway treadmill, calibrated, etc. Has anyone experienced this discrepancy between treadmills and the road?

Thanks

---

Generally that will be the case (which is why I suggest starting
out on the treadmill- more speed for a given level of effort) because
of the lack of wind and hills, and the more controlled temperature
and environment. Even on a dead flat course, air resistance itself
makes a difference.

------------------
MyRunningLog
MyStuff
Low Heart Rate Training FAQ
My marathons and ultras
My races and reports

IP: Logged

posted May-29-2007 01:19 AM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by leitnerj:
Doubt it. I do make sure I get a lot of runs on hilly courses and I speed
up going down (that can be a critical part in making progress) and, as
Jimmy said, I run quite a few races. 5 marathons, 3 50ks, 1 100 miler,
and an Olympic tri since February. Each one of these is speedwork in
its own right. Perhaps not the 100.

---

I want to see Jesse race a (hold on..now....don't panic...) 10K!!

That's it..just a mere 10K. Hard though...gut wrenching hard. He can be our crash test dummy from someone with a monstrous aerobic base.

Ok..so maybe I just want to see him run really hard so he can compare his 5/10K times with his marathon times and such. (reverse predictions!) Call me crazy. Especially without any speedwork for such a race distance.

Obviously it's extremely difficult to compare distances as such with the course, temps, etc...but I can't be the only one curious, right?

As for me, I'm hoping to go sub 21:00 for my 5K next Saturday. My last one was 21:11, however that was 2 weeks after my 2nd marathon in 10 weeks. (and my 2nd marathon ever) I expect a bit better this week.

IP: Logged

posted May-29-2007 02:52 AM               

Using McMillan the 10k equals a 3:22 marathon. He ran Baltimore 3 days after the 10k in 3:19.

The 5k computes out to a 3:16 marathon. He ran Grandma's a week prior to the 5k in 3:17. (78 degrees and muggy)

Very very impressive Jesse.

IP: Logged

posted May-29-2007 08:55 AM            

I had a very disappointing 7 mile run on Friday. I ran after work and it was hot/humid. I found it extremely difficult to keep my HR below MAF. My pace deteriorated from 10:30-ish to close to 12 very quickly. Frankly, I did not enjoy this run. I eventually gave up and just let my HR climb above MAF the second half of the run (ended up MAF+8). I can see Maff-ing in the winter, but summer?

Monday I ran 12 miles under cooler, cloudy, drizzly conditions. This run was very different from Fridays. My pace and HR essentially remained constant the entire run (10:30 pace/130 bpm). Compared to Friday, I'm one happy Maff-er.

I still question how this will work over the summer. Some runs I can do in the cooler morning, but some of my runs are at lunch time during the week. I'm wondering if this training approach might be better in the fall/winter ... ?

IP: Logged

posted May-29-2007 09:50 AM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by corland14:
Well you got me interested Docster. I took a look into his log and found a few 06 entries. There's a 5k last June (20:08) and a 10k in Oct (43:12).

Using McMillan the 10k equals a 3:22 marathon. He ran Baltimore 3 days after the 10k in 3:19.

The 5k computes out to a 3:16 marathon. He ran Grandma's a week prior to the 5k in 3:17. (78 degrees and muggy)

Very very impressive Jesse.

---

Ah...I guess I should have looked. Jesse's times have continued to improve and I was curious if the lack of speedwork created much of a discrepency in shorter races.

IP: Logged

posted May-29-2007 10:02 AM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by Who Dey:
4 Weeks of Maff-ing Report

I had a very disappointing 7 mile run on Friday. I ran after work and it was hot/humid. I found it extremely difficult to keep my HR below MAF. My pace deteriorated from 10:30-ish to close to 12 very quickly. Frankly, I did not enjoy this run. I eventually gave up and just let my HR climb above MAF the second half of the run (ended up MAF+8). I can see Maff-ing in the winter, but summer?

Monday I ran 12 miles under cooler, cloudy, drizzly conditions. This run was very different from Fridays. My pace and HR essentially remained constant the entire run (10:30 pace/130 bpm). Compared to Friday, I'm one happy Maff-er.

I still question how this will work over the summer. Some runs I can do in the cooler morning, but some of my runs are at lunch time during the week. I'm wondering if this training approach might be better in the fall/winter ... ?

---

It's tough. It can take some time to acclimatize to the heat. My 11 miler on Saturday was a grind to stay below MAF. I was well over a minute slower than normal. (low to mid 80's...no shade on asphalt) I also think I should have been a touch more hydrated.

However, Sunday I ran 14 miles and was noticeably better. It was just as hot out, but admittedly there was more shade on that route.

You should adapt over a few weeks and not have such a hard time, however the hotter it is the slower you have to go to maintain XYZ heart rate.

Also (unrelated I guess, but maybe not) I calculated my sweat loss at about 10-11 ounces per mile on my 14 miler. (mid 80's) Ouch.

IP: Logged

posted May-29-2007 12:06 PM               

quote:

---

Originally posted by Who Dey:
4 Weeks of Maff-ing Report

I had a very disappointing 7 mile run on Friday. I ran after work and it was hot/humid. I found it extremely difficult to keep my HR below MAF. My pace deteriorated from 10:30-ish to close to 12 very quickly. Frankly, I did not enjoy this run. I eventually gave up and just let my HR climb above MAF the second half of the run (ended up MAF+8). I can see Maff-ing in the winter, but summer?

Monday I ran 12 miles under cooler, cloudy, drizzly conditions. This run was very different from Fridays. My pace and HR essentially remained constant the entire run (10:30 pace/130 bpm). Compared to Friday, I'm one happy Maff-er.

I still question how this will work over the summer. Some runs I can do in the cooler morning, but some of my runs are at lunch time during the week. I'm wondering if this training approach might be better in the fall/winter ... ?

---

Who Dey,

Keep the faith brother! It's tough slogging along at paces that you've always assumed were for people much, much slower than you. If you can handle the humiliation on the roads it will pay big dividends. Remember, there are a lot of people that would be doing backflips of joy if they could hold 12:00 miles at their MAF HR. On the other hand there are people used to running 7:00 pace that will be doing 9:00 pace this summer and feeling the same way. One thing you can do is eliminate the tracking of miles. Simply run by time and it might gnaw at your psyche a little less.

One real-life example: There is a female in my neighborhood that runs past me like I'm standing still fairly often on the trail. In her mind (and voice unfortunately, lol) she is the much faster runner, but our marathon times are 30-40 minutes different. Keep going, best of luck!

------------------
My Profile

"Pain is temporary. Regret hurts forever."
http://www.hrmarathontraining.blogspot.com/

IP: Logged

posted May-29-2007 12:31 PM            

Thank you for the replies. Friday's run was a definite low point for me, but I was pleased with Monday's run. I am commited to giving "The Program" a fair shake. I am also commited to honestly sharing my Newbie highs and lows in hope that other Newbies might find some solace.

For today's lunch-time run, it was 80 degress and 60% humidity. I've gotten much better at modulating my pace/HR over hill and dale. With the rising temps, it's difficult for me to compare runs on the same course, but I definitely feel like I've made some progress.

Yet, one milestone has eluded me. It's been 4 weeks and I have yet to pass another runner! Oh, I can't wait till that day!

IP: Logged

posted May-29-2007 12:38 PM            

Thank you for the replies. Friday's run was a definite low point for me, but I was pleased with Monday's run. I am commited to giving "The Program" a fair shake. I am also commited to honestly sharing my Newbie highs and lows in hope that other Newbies might find some solace.

For today's lunch-time run, it was 80 degress and 60% humidity. I've gotten much better at modulating my pace/HR over hill and dale. With the rising temps, it's difficult for me to compare runs on the same course, but I definitely feel like I've made some progress.

Yet, one milestone has eluded me. It's been 4 weeks and I have yet to pass another runner! Oh, I can't wait till that day!

IP: Logged