posted May-18-2007 02:10 PM               

For example, if you have HR data from an all-out half-marathon you'll know that you can probably support approximately 95% of that number for a full marathon, and vice versa. You can then tailor your running program accordingly. If you want to do marathon pace tempo runs, you can do them at your appropriate HR. In my opinion the worst thing you can do is attempt to do tempo runs at your future dream marathon pace in an attempt to make that your marathon pace.

I've noticed Hadd mentioned recently, I used his teachings to tailor my program. He advocates a 5 x 2400meter at advancing HR's series to periodically test fitness. He mentions that the 4th level pace should be very close to what you're capable of in the marathon.

My test consists of 115, 125, 135, 145, 155. A year ago I did the test very shortly after a 3:09 marathon and 1:30:00 half, and the 4th level said I should be at 3:10 pace. Two weeks ago I did a test right after a 1:26 half (which calculates to 3:01 full) and my 4th level estimated a 3:01 marathon pace. Pretty accurate stuff. For the sake of reference in setting Hadd test HR's, my max HR is 176. My confirmed all-out half-marathon HR is 159. Planned marathon HR is about 151, and daily training intensity (85% of miles) is 125.

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posted May-18-2007 04:10 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by willamona:
Short version. In 6 months, I took an hour off of my marathon time. I am now training for my next marathon. I only use MAF to base build.

---

When you started this programme, whre you looking to lose any weight at all ? If you were, then how did that come along ?

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posted May-18-2007 05:20 PM               

My MHR is 200, the temp started around 50 deg and ended at 77 or 78 deg, this was hotter than I am used to running in.

As far as splits go I'm still living in the stone age, no splits...just a simple HR monitor.

"I wouldn't overanalyze your first marathon ". Seems that I always try to overanalyze everything, I just need to calm down and just go for a run.....Hey wait a minute, thats how I got into this mess in the first palce!

Thanks for the input Jimmy

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[This message has been edited by Stealth26 (edited May-18-2007).]

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posted May-18-2007 06:01 PM               

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posted May-18-2007 06:13 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by willamona:
Jesse,

If I shoot you an e-mail, can you send me the previous iterations of this thread?

---

I've noticed that the previous MAF threads are still out there in cyberspace. I've found 2 threads not including this one:

For posts from 05/2005 through 03/2006 - 65 pages long:
http://www.coolrunning.com/forums/Archives/Archive-000003/HTML/20060330-6-014522.shtml

For posts from 03/2006 through 11/2006 - 57 pages long (although the 1st page is missing):
http://www.coolrunning.com/forums/Forum6/HTML/018553-2.shtml

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posted May-18-2007 06:19 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by zeba:
When you started this programme, whre you looking to lose any weight at all ? If you were, then how did that come along ?

---

I am naturally thin. If you need advice in losing weight, I am the worst person to ask. I was the junior high girl every other girl was jealous of because of my thin build. Some people run just to run.

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posted May-18-2007 06:22 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by weeleeto:
I've noticed that the previous MAF threads are still out there in cyberspace. I've found 2 threads not including this one:

For posts from 05/2005 through 03/2006 - 65 pages long:
http://www.coolrunning.com/forums/Archives/Archive-000003/HTML/20060330-6-014522.shtml

For posts from 03/2006 through 11/2006 - 57 pages long (although the 1st page is missing):
http://www.coolrunning.com/forums/Forum6/HTML/018553-2.shtml

---

Ok, Jesse, unless you have already sent it, this is good enough for me. Thank you.

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posted May-18-2007 06:34 PM            

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posted May-18-2007 06:42 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by Aetheana:
Just a really quick question.

When doing these MAF runs, my calves KILL me compared to when I do jogs at higher heart rates. Right now my MAF is around 17 min/mi (I feel special to be where Jesse was at when he began. )

Is the pain in the calves just due to using different muscles when going slower? Does it have to do with the recruiting of blood vessels and super charging the mitochondria? Am I over analyzing things?

Also, do other people experience this? I know people allude to the 'pain' of MAF runs, but is it HONEST pain in the legs or just the PAIN of slowing down when you're used to speeding through?

Thanks!

---

I've experienced this as well. I am in my 11th week of Maff (no progress yet) and the soreness has become knee pain. (too much wogging up and down hills?) I have stopped "wogging" and have just been walking (although this only gets my HR up to 130, nowhere near my Maf HR of 154,

I am a stubborn person by nature, and I'm not quite ready to give up on this, BUT I read somewhere on another thread about a guy (also named Jesse??) who tried MAF for 30 weeks and never saw ANY progress, so maybe there does come a time when one should just give up??

I have a book called Precision Heart Rate training that has a plan by someone called Coach Benson. His plan would give me three days of running between 143-156, one long run where I could go up to 164, one fartlek (up to 164, back down to 143), and one run between 163 and 170. I was thinking of trying that plan instead- does it sound reasonable?

To whoever asked about the weight loss- I have lost about 5-6 pounds just naturally (not trying to lose) since I started maffing. I was already at a healthy weight, though. I think it's because I am much less hungry after running. I no longer have that bottomless-pit feeling I used to get.

Oh, and I've been cleared from any medical issues- iron, thyroid, EkG all normal- I guess it must just be my fitness

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posted May-18-2007 06:48 PM            

and BTW- Jimmy, you are really funny. Your posts always make me laugh.

Thanks,

Christine

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posted May-18-2007 09:44 PM               

quote:

---

Originally posted by weeleeto:
I've noticed that the previous MAF threads are still out there in cyberspace. I've found 2 threads not including this one:

For posts from 05/2005 through 03/2006 - 65 pages long:
http://www.coolrunning.com/forums/Archives/Archive-000003/HTML/20060330-6-014522.shtml

For posts from 03/2006 through 11/2006 - 57 pages long (although the 1st page is missing):
http://www.coolrunning.com/forums/Forum6/HTML/018553-2.shtml

---

Wow, it sure is funny to flip through those old versions!

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posted May-18-2007 10:06 PM               

quote:

---

Originally posted by chase3543:
I've experienced this as well. I am in my 11th week of Maff (no progress yet) and the soreness has become knee pain. (too much wogging up and down hills?) I have stopped "wogging" and have just been walking (although this only gets my HR up to 130, nowhere near my Maf HR of 154,

I am a stubborn person by nature, and I'm not quite ready to give up on this, BUT I read somewhere on another thread about a guy (also named Jesse??) who tried MAF for 30 weeks and never saw ANY progress, so maybe there does come a time when one should just give up??

I have a book called Precision Heart Rate training that has a plan by someone called Coach Benson. His plan would give me three days of running between 143-156, one long run where I could go up to 164, one fartlek (up to 164, back down to 143), and one run between 163 and 170. I was thinking of trying that plan instead- does it sound reasonable?

To whoever asked about the weight loss- I have lost about 5-6 pounds just naturally (not trying to lose) since I started maffing. I was already at a healthy weight, though. I think it's because I am much less hungry after running. I no longer have that bottomless-pit feeling I used to get.

Oh, and I've been cleared from any medical issues- iron, thyroid, EkG all normal- I guess it must just be my fitness

---

I'm pretty sure we'll never be able to isolate all of the causes and
circumstances where this type of training doesn't work, but it seems
that over time, we're able to chisel away at them. How hilly are your
runs? Are you getting any substantial periods going downhill? Are
you picking up the pace when you go down the hills to keep your
heart rate up to about MAF? For many people, it seems to be
absolutely critical to get some fast turnover work in on downhills.
There have also been issues in many cases with people in their
low 20s (and younger) and upper 50s (and over). I don't think there's
much risk in running at too low of a heart rate as long as you're getting
the downhill, fast turnover time in. The problem, I believe, is that
when you spend all of your time just slogging around, you'll lose
your running economy. That's one beneficial thing about starting
things on the treadmill, where you can get the most turnover
bang for the buck (as long as you leave it on zero, or better
yet if available, negative, incline). I assume you're also avoiding
carbs in the 2 hours or so before your runs. Indeed you're right -
runawayjesse has been one of the most outspoken critics. I know
that he was adamant that he tried forever and got worse and worse,
but I never got a clear picture of what he did on downhills or other
aspects - I just can't understand how someone can consistently do
it for half a year, continuously getting worse, without trying to make
some kind of mid-course adjustments along the way. From what I've
seen, the good majority of people who are not successful either
do not get the downhill running in (which doesn't seem to be
necessary for everyone) or let their heart rates climb regularly on
the hills.

I'll soon be getting to the point where I will recommend people to
get a vo2max test after checking all of the other boxes - in some
cases, it has turned out that even at the very low heart rates, some
individuals still were burning mostly carb for fuel, which doesn't
point to what to do, but at least gives an indication as to why things
are not working.

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posted May-18-2007 11:25 PM            

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posted May-19-2007 12:14 AM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by jjwaverly42:

Welcome and thanks.

Close.

I don't use McMillan for trainig paces, just as a goal for my training paces. I use HR for trainig paces. If they are getting in line with the calc, then good.

I run my LT runs by HR, and if they are matching what the MCMillan calc says for 15k thru half RACE pace for the race DREAM MARATHON PACE stated on the same page, then I'm on target.

Reread my post with this in mind.

Gotta run. More later...

--Jimmy

Jog Log
zzzzzzz

---

If I were to write a guidebook on my unbelievably ballparky system it would be called "Having The Balls To Ballpark Your Dream Marathon Pace and Then Having A Ball While Knocking It Out Of The Ballpark", and it would go like this:

--5 months out from your marathon, run a few races half-marathon or less. Run them the best you can.

--take your best race,, go to the McMillan Calculator and pop in the time for the distance. Take a deep breath, say the word "spherl" and click the calculate button (it should say "submit" as you aren't doing any calculating, but it does make you feel smart to click). A page will pop up. (I just popped in 1:12:00 for a 10-mile race)

--the top two boxes will show all the possible race times you can achieve at different distances with total fitness, good weather, and a sane course.
For 1:12:00 it gives (I'm excluding all the sub 5k distances 100m-3mi and a few between half and full marathon):

5000m...4M...8000m..5M....10K......15K......13.1M....Marathon
20:41..27:03...34:06..34:17..42:58..1:06:35..1:35:37..3:21:40
6:40.....6:46....6:51...6:51....6:54....7:09........7:18.....7:42

--I keep the 3:21:40 in mind as I begin base training. After 8-16 weeks (depending on the time I have) of runs below MAF and building volume, about 8-10 weeks from the marathon, I'll go out and do a 3-4 mile lactate threshold run. Having the first mile average about 85% MHR, then maintaining pace to get to about 90% by the 3rd or 4th mile.

The goal is to have that LT run fall between the 15k and half marathon time listed above (7:09 and 7:18). If I am way over (i.e 7:25 plus), and the temperature is low enough, that iindicates I am not yet fit enough to shoot for a 3:21:40. There is still time.

--I keep 85-90% of miles below MAF. Then I add either an LT run. a MRP tempo run, or the last 3-4 miles of a long run at marathon heart rate. I might even do fartlek on week, or some intervals (rare). Just something at higher HR's once a week.

--During that final 8-10 weeks, I like to do at least two MRP pace tempo runs between 7-14 miles at marathon heart rate (averaging about 85% MHR). Whatever the pace is, it is. Don't force it to be dream marathon pace. If the temperature is good (55-60º) and the pace is on dream pace or a bit faster, then this indicates dream pace might be a real possibility.
If it is slower for each run, then adjustments to the dream pace might have to be made.

--Make sure to do more LT runs. Keep tabs on the pace.

--If the pace falls between the goal 15k--half marathon pace, AND the MRP paces are a bit faster than the dream pace, then I go for the dream pace. I am fit enough.

--I then make a pace plan. Here is the pace plan I used for the 2005 Philly Marathon (I made the plan for 3:27:09 pace thru mile 25, or a 7:54 pace. I figured that would give me some room to get 3:28:00 by the end. ) along with what I did in the actual race. Notice I started slower than the 7:57 pace I needed to achieve 3:28:

......PLAN............Actual Execution
Mile.Splits.....actual race......difference
1...0:08:20........0:08:19........+0:01
2...0:16:20........0:16:30........-0:10
3...0:24:20........0:24:14........+0:06
4...0:32:20........0:32:19........+0:01
5...0:40:20........0:40:17........+0:03
6...0:48:20........0:48:18........+0:02
7...0:56:20........0:56:22........-0:02
8...1:04:20........1:04:12........+0:08
9...1:12:10........1:11:40........+0:20
10..1:20:00........1:19:49........+0:11
11..1:27:50........1:28:17........-0:27
12..1:35:40........1:36:00........-0:20
13..1:43:30........1:43:48........-0:18
14..1:51:20........1:51:38........-0:18
15..1:59:10........1:59:20........-0:10
16..2:07:00........2:07:16........-0:16
17..2:14:50........2:15:12........-0:22
18..2:22:40........2:23:07........-0:27
19..2:30:30........2:31:00........-0:30
20..2:38:20........2:38:53........-0:33
21..2:46:10........2:46:50........-0:40
22..2:54:00........2:54:45........-0:45
23..3:01:50........3:02:34........-0:44
24..3:09:40........3:10:25........-0:45 (needed 3:10:24 for 3:28 pace)
25..3:17:30........3:18:26........-0:56 (needed 3:18:20 for 3:28 pace)
26.2..3:28:00.....3:28:10........-0:10

Nice! just 10 seconds off.

--If you are going to use a HRM in the race to dtermine pace, make a HR plan for that as well, and then try to stick to it.

--come race day, if it is super windy or hot (above 65º), then I would slow down a bit more in the first half.

That's how I train for a marathon, and how I pick my pace.

End book. Now, back to Weird Travels. Damn, not the Bigfoot episode again. It was supposed be Stonehenge and crop circles...

--Jimmy

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[This message has been edited by jjwaverly42 (edited May-19-2007).]

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posted May-19-2007 12:31 AM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by aharmer:
In my opinion you should definitely wear a HRM during the races. I don't ever look at my HR during the race, but analyze the data after. With the FR305 you can program the HR information on another screen so it's being recorded but isn't available to peek at.

For example, if you have HR data from an all-out half-marathon you'll know that you can probably support approximately 95% of that number for a full marathon, and vice versa. You can then tailor your running program accordingly. If you want to do marathon pace tempo runs, you can do them at your appropriate HR. In my opinion the worst thing you can do is attempt to do tempo runs at your future dream marathon pace in an attempt to make that your marathon pace.

I've noticed Hadd mentioned recently, I used his teachings to tailor my program. He advocates a 5 x 2400meter at advancing HR's series to periodically test fitness. He mentions that the 4th level pace should be very close to what you're capable of in the marathon.

My test consists of 115, 125, 135, 145, 155. A year ago I did the test very shortly after a 3:09 marathon and 1:30:00 half, and the 4th level said I should be at 3:10 pace. Two weeks ago I did a test right after a 1:26 half (which calculates to 3:01 full) and my 4th level estimated a 3:01 marathon pace. Pretty accurate stuff. For the sake of reference in setting Hadd test HR's, my max HR is 176. My confirmed all-out half-marathon HR is 159. Planned marathon HR is about 151, and daily training intensity (85% of miles) is 125.

---

Wearing a HRM from time to time to gather data is something I do and recommend. I also feel if a person wants to wear one all the time to dictate their pace, then great. Whatever suits you.

I agree that just going out and running dream pace during a MRP tempo run isn't the wisest thing (but I wouldn't call it the worse thing--the worse thing is running a MRP run with no pants or shorts on and getting arrested for not being developed enough--you try to express your freedom and they just lock you up...). I do mine by HR, and if the pace falls at dream pace or better, then fine. Whatever it is, it is.

I think the important thing for someone to do is gather all the data they can and start to see how things relate. Coming up with a system is a joy in terms of process and execution.

One of these days I have to try that HADD 5x2400 test. I've never done it. Sounds like fun, and I would love to see if the data correlates with my other numbers, and matches my new cobalt blue nipple protectors.

--Jimmy

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posted May-19-2007 12:44 AM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by chase3543:
oh- forgot to add- I have a few life stresses at the moment... I'm moving back to the states after three years overseas, I'm a full-time teacher and grad student, my SO is soon-to -be-unemployed... Just wondering if anyone else has a lot of other things happening in life and how that affected their progress.

and BTW- Jimmy, you are really funny. Your posts always make me laugh.

Thanks,

Christine

---

Thanks for those kind words. Well, there's one person who laughs at my jamming!

My mother died suddenly a month after I qualified for Boston at Philly in Nov. 2005 (I think when she heard I finally had a girlfriend again, she decided it was okay to go). At about the same time, I injured my calf on an easy run on the TM. I then proceeded to get my first cold in 20 years. I started to eat a lot and put on a bunch of weight and ran Sugarloaf in may at 181 pounds (about 8 pounds heavier than Philly). I did okay, but I think along with some residual tiredness from running Boston as a training run, it slowed me down, masking the effects of the MAF training I had done. So, in essence, it was my mom's fault that I didn't PR at Sugarloaf.
Right. Stressful things can affect you. But running can help with that as well. We are whole beings--very gestalty. No separation inside the land of you really. A unit. A condo of life. Condo 1a affects condo 7c.

Keep going!

--Jimmy

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posted May-19-2007 12:54 AM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by chase3543:
I've experienced this as well. I am in my 11th week of Maff (no progress yet) and the soreness has become knee pain. (too much wogging up and down hills?) I have stopped "wogging" and have just been walking (although this only gets my HR up to 130, nowhere near my Maf HR of 154,

I am a stubborn person by nature, and I'm not quite ready to give up on this, BUT I read somewhere on another thread about a guy (also named Jesse??) who tried MAF for 30 weeks and never saw ANY progress, so maybe there does come a time when one should just give up??

I have a book called Precision Heart Rate training that has a plan by someone called Coach Benson. His plan would give me three days of running between 143-156, one long run where I could go up to 164, one fartlek (up to 164, back down to 143), and one run between 163 and 170. I was thinking of trying that plan instead- does it sound reasonable?

To whoever asked about the weight loss- I have lost about 5-6 pounds just naturally (not trying to lose) since I started maffing. I was already at a healthy weight, though. I think it's because I am much less hungry after running. I no longer have that bottomless-pit feeling I used to get.

Oh, and I've been cleared from any medical issues- iron, thyroid, EkG all normal- I guess it must just be my fitness

---

Have you built volume at all?
If you don't challenge your mileage limits, you probably won't progress in your training paces too quickly. Give your body something to endure. 11 weeks isn't long at all. Your aerobic system is very unfit and will take a bit longer than some. Although it seems like nothing is happening, something is happening. You might be someone who needs at least 24 weeks to see progress. Keep doing MAF tests every two weeks.

Keep going!

Jimmy
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posted May-19-2007 04:21 AM            

http://sub-5.blogspot.com/

[This message has been edited by sansmap (edited May-19-2007).]

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posted May-19-2007 07:19 AM               

quote:

---

Originally posted by sansmap:
quick question, Jimmy,
on one of your previous posts, you mention HRR. What does this stand for? and how is it higher than MHR (which I think is max heart rate)?
thanks!
John

http://sub-5.blogspot.com/

[This message has been edited by sansmap (edited May-19-2007).]

---

Hopefully JJ doesn't mind me giving you some info. Clearly he was hopped up on all kinds of drugs last night and will probably be in a fat-burn coma for days. Just kiddin buddy, I'll leave the humor to you before I hurt myself.

HRR=Heart Rate Reserve. If I'm not mistaken it's also known as the "Karnonen Method". This calculates HR's for specific exercise intensities, but isolates your base resting HR in order to exclude it as a variable. The resting HR is added back in after the intensity factor is calculated. This method tends to give a higher HR for lower intensities than taking a straight percentage of max HR, but trends closer as you run at increased intensities.

Let's assume you have a max HR of 185 and a resting HR of 45. If you decide to run at 70% of max HR you'll run at 130bpm.

To run at 70% HRR you would take 185 less 45 = 140. Multiply 140 x 0.70 = 98. Then add your resting HR of 45 back in. 98+45=143.

You can see quite a difference in intensity between the two methods. Conversely, if you look at 90% intensity, the max HR number is 166 and the HRR number is 171. Much closer.

I run most of my miles at about 70% of my max HR. If I were to use the HRR formula it's actually 65%.

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posted May-19-2007 07:56 AM            

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posted May-19-2007 10:08 AM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by sansmap:
quick question, Jimmy,
on one of your previous posts, you mention HRR. What does this stand for? and how is it higher than MHR (which I think is max heart rate)?
thanks!
John

http://sub-5.blogspot.com/

[This message has been edited by sansmap (edited May-19-2007).]

---

I just go with MHR as the HRR is not a big difference for me in terms
BPM. My 70% HRR is my 75% MHR. My 75% HRR is my 80% MHR. Pretty much the spread, as my resting heart rate is about 48-49 when unfit, and 45 when I'm fit. Figuring it in doesn't change the zones more than a beat. RHR would have to be in the 30's for the zones to change that much. I do mention HRR from time to time, as PArker's "HRT For The COmpleat Idiot" uses the Karvonen formula mentioned by Aharmer.
I just find it easier to communicate using MHR, as people get that right way.

--Jimmy

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posted May-19-2007 01:13 PM               

is this ok or is the 6% over not good? avg for the whole run 126.
Thanks for your help and all the knowledge out here.

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posted May-19-2007 02:36 PM               

quote:

---

Originally posted by RenoRunner:
1st MAF run this am would like some feedback. I have spent the last week reading all the old posts.
Data 44 yr old was training but not low HR so it would be 180-44= 136 MAF
Here are the stats from my run
zone 110-119 12 min 41 sec 22% of run avg 115
zone120-138 38 min 37 secs 68% of run avg 130
zone 140-159 3 min 27 secs 6% of run avg 143

is this ok or is the 6% over not good? avg for the whole run 126.
Thanks for your help and all the knowledge out here.

---

When you decide to go for it full force, try to stay 100% below
MAF, at least for a while. That's a good start.

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posted May-19-2007 02:46 PM               

quote:

---

Originally posted by leitnerj:
When you decide to go for it full force, try to stay 100% below
MAF, at least for a while. That's a good start.

---

Thanks for your reply. So I should set my alarm to go off at 130 not 135 to keep me 100% under.
How low is too low?

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posted May-19-2007 02:49 PM               

quote:

---

Originally posted by RenoRunner:
Thanks for your reply. So I should set my alarm to go off at 130 not 135 to keep me 100% under.
How low is too low?

---

Personal preference. I used the alarm for about my first three
days of outdoor MAF running, then it just got too annoying and I
turned it off. You are best trying to target 5 beats under, however,
and perhaps let it climb a little bit on the hills.

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