posted May-17-2007 07:38 PM            

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posted May-17-2007 07:45 PM               

quote:

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Originally posted by willamona:
Jesse,

If I shoot you an e-mail, can you send me the previous iterations of this thread?

---

You bet, but they're huge - not really emailable. I'd have to post
them somewhere.

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posted May-17-2007 07:53 PM               

quote:

---

Originally posted by willamona:
I need to know if this is normal. I ran my last marathon on April 29th. I have spent the last couple of weeks slowly working my way back to the grind. The surprise is that today, I am almost back to where my minutes per mile were the two weeks prior to the marathon. After my first marathon, it took almost two months to do get close to those pre-marathon times. Have I really improved my recovery time by that much?

---

Well, I can give a long, drawn-out diatribe or I can simply say that
before MAF training (back when I couldn't break 4 hrs for a marathon),
I could barely squeeze in 2 marathons a year and survive and now,
about 2 years later, I've just run 9 marathons and ultras over a period
of less than 3 months, including PRs in the marathon, the 50k, and
the 100 mile distance (ok, my first finish at 100) all within one month.
So, to keep it short, yes, relish the moment!

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posted May-17-2007 08:01 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by leitnerj:
You bet, but they're huge - not really emailable. I'd have to post
them somewhere.

---

Even zipped?

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posted May-17-2007 08:33 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by willamona:
I need to know if this is normal. I ran my last marathon on April 29th. I have spent the last couple of weeks slowly working my way back to the grind. The surprise is that today, I am almost back to where my minutes per mile were the two weeks prior to the marathon. After my first marathon, it took almost two months to do get close to those pre-marathon times. Have I really improved my recovery time by that much?

---

My last marathon was the 28th of April..my first was Feb. 17th. After both of those races I noticed almost no difference in my pace given the same HR. The first I took 3 days off...the 2nd I took 6 days off.

Of course, if I was to start running several marathons a month I'm sure it would be a different story.

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posted May-17-2007 08:33 PM               

quote:

---

Originally posted by leitnerj:
Well, I can give a long, drawn-out diatribe or I can simply say that
before MAF training (back when I couldn't break 4 hrs for a marathon),
I could barely squeeze in 2 marathons a year and survive and now,
about 2 years later, I've just run 9 marathons and ultras over a period
of less than 3 months, including PRs in the marathon, the 50k, and
the 100 mile distance (ok, my first finish at 100) all within one month.
So, to keep it short, yes, relish the moment!

---

You are a freak -- in a good way. I know you put up with a lot of flack for your views, but it's hard to argue with your results. While I'm not a MAF disciple the way you are, I give this thread and its basic principles the credit for helping me turn the corner in my running. run jesse run

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posted May-17-2007 09:08 PM               

quote:

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Originally posted by willamona:
Even zipped?

---

I just dug through and noticed that I had to break them
up anyway because I was having "Word" issues with them,
so they are all 3 meg or less, so they're sendable.

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posted May-17-2007 09:13 PM               

quote:

---

Originally posted by martinjames:
You are a freak -- in a good way. I know you put up with a lot of flack for your views, but it's hard to argue with your results. While I'm not a MAF disciple the way you are, I give this thread and its basic principles the credit for helping me turn the corner in my running. run jesse run

---

Thanks, that's good to hear. One need not be an extremist as I am
to reap some benefits. Really, if they get nothing else from it,
people should learn what an "easy run" really is and run them
occasionally! For some people, it's hard to run an easy run without
a heart rate monitor - I was certainly one of them.

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posted May-17-2007 10:03 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by willamona:
I need to know if this is normal. I ran my last marathon on April 29th. I have spent the last couple of weeks slowly working my way back to the grind. The surprise is that today, I am almost back to where my minutes per mile were the two weeks prior to the marathon. After my first marathon, it took almost two months to do get close to those pre-marathon times. Have I really improved my recovery time by that much?

---

I think once you put in a few sessions of this with high volume, it doesn't go away quickly. At the end of 2005, I turned to MAF and was running very slowly (12:00-13:00). At the end of 2006, I took about 5 weeks off, no running, and have been running very little since January (compared to last year), and I haven't fell back to my 2005-early 06 levels. I started in January 10-11:00ish at MAF, and am down to 9:30-10:30ish, on low mileage. Something stays with you. You don't go back to square 1.

--Jimmy

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posted May-17-2007 10:10 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by leitnerj:
Well, I can give a long, drawn-out diatribe or I can simply say that
before MAF training (back when I couldn't break 4 hrs for a marathon),
I could barely squeeze in 2 marathons a year and survive and now,
about 2 years later, I've just run 9 marathons and ultras over a period
of less than 3 months, including PRs in the marathon, the 50k, and
the 100 mile distance (ok, my first finish at 100) all within one month.
So, to keep it short, yes, relish the moment!

---

I wish I cold go back to the early HRT threads form 2004, Jesse. Bring out the posts from when you first started with the HRM. Show people just how fast you have developed into an aerobic endurance machine.

Congrats on all your success lately. Especially that 100-miler! Yes!

--Jimmy

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posted May-17-2007 10:20 PM            

Jesse, I sent you an e-mail.

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posted May-18-2007 01:27 AM               

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posted May-18-2007 08:12 AM            

(I'm not Jesse, but I do pretend to be him in my rocket science fantasies. "It does take a rocket scientist, m'am. Now disrobe, please. Time to burn some fat...")

Congratulations on finishing a MARATHON! Awesome. You broke 5 hours after a year of running. Not bad. Sounds like you hit the wall by mile 22, also not bad for your first (I hit it in mile 20 in my first). Lots of factors can affect performance in the marathon. Temperature is a biggie. How warm? In my first marathon it reached 70+ degrees, which made it feel slightly yucky from the start. The best temps are high 40's at the start, feeling chilly, staying in the low 50's. If you have time splitsahol, please post them.

What is your MHR?

Your heart rate being high before a race is not unusual, which is one reason why I don't use a HRM in a marathon to control speed. I do 10-14 mile marathon-race-pace tempo runs during training, using heart rate to guide them. Once I establish a pace. I then make a pace plan, starting a little slower than the ultimate average pace, working up to speed by mile 3-4. Then maintaining the same effort, going faster in the second half.

Parker says to keep your HR at a 75% HRR average for a marathon. I wore a HRM in one marathon to gather data (not to control speed). I averaged:

1st half=169 (85% MHR, 81% HRR) 1:49:15
2nd half=179 (90% MHR , 87% HRR) 1:41:17
Race= 173 (87% MHR, 83% HRR) 3:30:32

So, for the whole race, I averaged 83% HRR. A little bit higher than Parker's 75%. It wasn't my best performance (2 minutes off my then PR), so maybe a little closer to the 75% HRR for an average would have been better. But that's not how I currently do things. I think the human spirit can push you through in spite of %HRR's. Although, when I think of showing up to a marathon and the temperatures are over 75º, I might consider using one for safety reasons.

That all being said and related, I wouldn't overanalyze your first marathon. It might just come down to temperature and that you haven't been running long enough to push back the wall. It took until my third marathon and almost 3 years of running (I started in March 2003) and nearly 2 of running at lower heart rates to push it back to BQ-ville (no wall whatsoever).

If you stick with the 100% MAF base periods, followed by periods of racing and higher HR's (10-15% of total mileage), you will eventually begin to realize some of your potential. You will develop a system that works for you; one that helps you to determine a proper pace for your races.

Again, congratulations. Completing a marathon is a great accomplishment.

--Jimmy

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zzzzzzz

[This message has been edited by jjwaverly42 (edited May-18-2007).]

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posted May-18-2007 08:22 AM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by jjwaverly42:
Your heart rate being high before a race is not unusual, which is one reason why I don't use a HRM in a marathon to control speed. I do 10-14 mile marathon-race-pace tempo runs during training, using heart rate to guide them. Once I establish a pace. I then make a pace plan ...

---

Jimmy ... This is something I've wondered about ... how to arrive at a "race pace". Can you go into more detail in how you use the 10-14 mile runs with HRM to determine race pace?

Aside ... I ran my first trail run last night with the HRM and worked at keeping my HR below my MAF. The trail I ran was non-technical and relatively easy ... no major ups and downs. I was successful at controling my HR on the uphills, but I really had to fly on the downhills to stay close to MAF. Eventually, I gave up trying to stay close because (a) I felt a little out of control on the downhills and (b) I was beginning to feel the pounding in my knees.

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posted May-18-2007 08:32 AM            

When doing these MAF runs, my calves KILL me compared to when I do jogs at higher heart rates. Right now my MAF is around 17 min/mi (I feel special to be where Jesse was at when he began. )

Is the pain in the calves just due to using different muscles when going slower? Does it have to do with the recruiting of blood vessels and super charging the mitochondria? Am I over analyzing things?

Also, do other people experience this? I know people allude to the 'pain' of MAF runs, but is it HONEST pain in the legs or just the PAIN of slowing down when you're used to speeding through?

Thanks!

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posted May-18-2007 08:42 AM            

I'm new to this way of training also, and I have experienced the "pain" you describe, although I would describe it as more "fatigue" than "pain". I assumed it was attributable to the slow running. I experience it mostly when running up hill.

I developed "Achilles-Issues" last year, so I am careful about not over using my calves. I try not to push off in such a way that I over stress my Achilles. Perhaps this contributes to my calf pain being less than what it might otherwise be.

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posted May-18-2007 08:52 AM            

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posted May-18-2007 09:50 AM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by Aetheana:
Just a really quick question.

When doing these MAF runs, my calves KILL me compared to when I do jogs at higher heart rates. Right now my MAF is around 17 min/mi (I feel special to be where Jesse was at when he began. )

Is the pain in the calves just due to using different muscles when going slower? Does it have to do with the recruiting of blood vessels and super charging the mitochondria? Am I over analyzing things?

Also, do other people experience this? I know people allude to the 'pain' of MAF runs, but is it HONEST pain in the legs or just the PAIN of slowing down when you're used to speeding through?

Thanks!

---

One possible cause is that since you are running slower, if we assume your cadence remains about the same, then you are taking shorter strides. With shorter strides, (especially at slower speeds) the calves will become engaged a bit more.

My $0.02.

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posted May-18-2007 11:27 AM            

And I guess I should add for posterity... I'm not sure about my cadence at the MAF pace. I jog with jogging form at slightly higher heart rates (150-160) in the morning, and then walk with fast walking form at MAF pace (145) to and from work. Maybe my walking form is terrible. I do tend to feel my feet hit the ground a bit more roughly while walking than while jogging.

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posted May-18-2007 11:43 AM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by Who Dey:
Jimmy ... This is something I've wondered about ... how to arrive at a "race pace". Can you go into more detail in how you use the 10-14 mile runs with HRM to determine race pace?

Aside ... I ran my first trail run last night with the HRM and worked at keeping my HR below my MAF. The trail I ran was non-technical and relatively easy ... no major ups and downs. I was successful at controling my HR on the uphills, but I really had to fly on the downhills to stay close to MAF. Eventually, I gave up trying to stay close because (a) I felt a little out of control on the downhills and (b) I was beginning to feel the pounding in my knees.

---

Are you ready for this novella? Here we go!

Just as a side note. the HADD training says the following:

---If your HRmax is 193 OR HIGHER, then the following applies:
HRmax: 193+ (even if over 200)
Best possible HRmarathon: 175-177

--If your HRmax is 183, read all of the above, but use the following numbers:
Best possible HRmarathon: 165-167av

---If your HRmax is 173, read all of the above, but use the following numbers:
Best possible HRmarathon: 155-157 HRav

His numbers are about 88-90% MHR.
I believe he is on the money.

Now, how I go about determining a marathon race pace. I use the following:

--MCMILLAN CALCULATOR: recent race times of any distance popped into the McmIllan calculator. If my aerobic system is developed enough, I should be able to get within a few minutes of the marathon number it gives. I call this number DREAM MARATHON PACE.

--LACTATE THRESHOLD RUNS: 3-5 mile lactate threshold runs run between 168-181 (85-91% MHR). They should be paced between the 15k-half-marathon times given on the McMillan calculator.

--MARATHON RACE PACE TEMPO: 7-14 mile marathon race pace runs averaging 173-175 (87-88% MHR) for the run. The HR can span from 159-185ish, but average around 173-175. The time should be coming within 10 seconds either way of the pace given on the McMillan calculator. Often they are a bit faster due to less mileage than a marathon. Temperature might come into play on these. It might be 20 seconds slower if the temperature is really high that day. It's just an indicator, so it won't be exact. It's ballpark. They let you know that you are on track for the dream pace.

*************
Let's take a look at the indicators going into the Philly Marathon 2005 (3:28 PR first BQ) (7:57 pace) my 3rd marathon:

MCMILLAN CALCULATOR:
--my 2nd marathon in May 2005 (Vermont City), the calculator gave me a 3:27:10 based on a 1:38:14 half marathon in March. I finished with a 3:45. Hit the wall at mile 23. My goal was to break 4 hours and trained for and went out trying to make 3:39:00. Not quite there yet in aerobic development.

--I made a 10 mile PR on 7/29/05 of 1:13:59
McMillan gives me 3:27:16 for a dream marathon pace.

Based on the 10-miler, taking into account that I made a 3:45 at Vermont City in May, and hit the wall in the last 3 miles, I made my dream number 3:28 for a BQ (I needed 3:30:59).

LACTATE THRESHOLD RUNS:
McMillan calculator says 7:20-7:30
I then do the run averaging 170ish for the first mile,
peaking at 179 ave for the last mile (highest hr seen 181)

9/3/05 4 miles ave HR 175 7:29 pace
10/21/05 4 miles ave HR 175 7:20 pace

MARATHON RACE PACE TEMPO RUN:

9/30/05 12 miles 7:52 pace ave HR 173
10/23/05 14 miles 7:49 pace Ave HR 173
11/7/05 7 miles 7:51 pace Ave HR 171

At Philly I averaged 7:57, the first half was 7:59, the second half was 7:54. I hit 3:28 on the button!

I ran a half marathon 6 weeks out, and it indicated a dream pace of 3:24.
I don't think I could have done any better than 3:28. That made the McMillan calculator, or my aerobic development, off by a little less than 2%.

*****

Let's take a look at the indicators going into the Philly Marathon 2006 (3:22 PR BQ) (7:43 pace) my 6th marathon:

This is the year of MAF training for me.

MCMILLAN CALCULATOR:

-- the calculator gave me a 3:24:22 based on a 1:12:58 10-miler at the end of July.

-- the calculator gave me a 3:19:12 based on a 1:34:27 half-marathon on 10/8/06

I made 7:38 (3:19:59) my dream race pace when I began training in September. A big leap from 3:28 in 2005, but maybe doable.

LACTATE THRESHOLD RUNS:
calculator says 7:14-7:24 based on the 10 miler in July
calculator says 7:03-7:13 based on the half marathon on October 8th

Coming off 6 of 8 weeks of 100 miles per week below MAF-10:

10/6/06 4 miles ave HR 174 6:57 pace

Considering the "unfresh" legs in the half-marathon, I'd say the LT run was right on compared to the half-marathon performance.

MARATHON RACE PACE TEMPO RUN:

9/24/05 12 miles 8:05 pace ave HR 173 (159-184)
***too hot 75º 75% humidity bad day.

11/4/05 7 miles 7:37 pace Ave HR 171
temp 45º

At Philly I averaged 7:43, the first half was 7:41, the second half was 7:46. For 3:22:18.

The only thing that affected my performance, and I would say mentally more than physically, was that I came into the race with a painful case of PF in my right foot (due to not resting enough after the half-marathon in Oct. before resuming long runs, exposing a weakness and imbalance in that foot). I could have run the second half maybe 1-2 minutes faster, but I figured at the pace I was going I would make a 3:22, fine enough, no need to run my foot into oblivion (it hurt the whole race). 3:19:59 was definitely probable without the injury. Still, using the half marathon 6 weeks out that indicated a dream pace of 3:19 That made the McMillan calculator, or my aerobic development, off by a little less than 1.49%. Very close.

That's how I do it. Not a huge margin of error. I think being free of the HRM come race day keeps the thing from holding back my will and spirit.
You start out with a higher than normal heart rate, it can make you hold back when you don't have to. My HR and effort increases in the second half, and I will end up breathing pretty hard the last few miles. My HR is above 190. The HRM would tell me to slow down. A race is different from training. Now, that doesn't mean it is the same for others. Some run marathons with a different purpose. Me, I want to do my best and beat as many other racers as possible.

I hope you enjoyed this journey through Jimmyland. It's from the heart.

--Jimmy

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zzzzzzz

[This message has been edited by jjwaverly42 (edited May-18-2007).]

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posted May-18-2007 12:01 PM               

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posted May-18-2007 12:51 PM            

Is this an accurate synopsis ...

- use MAF training to establish an aerobic base

- run non-marathon length races (e.g., Half Marathons) without an HRM

- plug race results into McMillan Calculator to determine pace for lactate threshold and marathon pace runs

- run marathon at Calculator predicted pace without HRM

Congratulations on your training and race performances and thank you for sharing the details. I can't imagine logging 100 mile weeks ... I'm hoping for mid-50's this summer. Hopefully there will be some MAF magic at such level of weekly mileage.

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posted May-18-2007 01:16 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by Who Dey:
Thanks for the tour through Jimmyland!

Is this an accurate synopsis ...

- use MAF training to establish an aerobic base

- run non-marathon length races (e.g., Half Marathons) without an HRM

- plug race results into McMillan Calculator to determine pace for lactate threshold and marathon pace runs

- run marathon at Calculator predicted pace without HRM

Congratulations on your training and race performances and thank you for sharing the details. I can't imagine logging 100 mile weeks ... I'm hoping for mid-50's this summer. Hopefully there will be some MAF magic at such level of weekly mileage.

---

Welcome and thanks.

Close.

I don't use McMillan for trainig paces, just as a goal for my training paces. I use HR for trainig paces. If they are getting in line with the calc, then good.

I run my LT runs by HR, and if they are matching what the MCMillan calc says for 15k thru half RACE pace for the race DREAM MARATHON PACE stated on the same page, then I'm on target.

Reread my post with this in mind.

Gotta run. More later...

--Jimmy

Jog Log
zzzzzzz

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posted May-18-2007 01:24 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by Who Dey:
Thanks for the tour through Jimmyland!

Is this an accurate synopsis ...

- use MAF training to establish an aerobic base

- run non-marathon length races (e.g., Half Marathons) without an HRM

- plug race results into McMillan Calculator to determine pace for lactate threshold and marathon pace runs

- run marathon at Calculator predicted pace without HRM

Congratulations on your training and race performances and thank you for sharing the details. I can't imagine logging 100 mile weeks ... I'm hoping for mid-50's this summer. Hopefully there will be some MAF magic at such level of weekly mileage.

---

Welcome and thanks.

Close.

I don't use McMillan for trainig paces, just as a goal for my training paces. I use HR for trainig paces. If they are getting in line with the calc, then good.

I run my LT runs by HR, and if they are matching what the MCMillan calc says for 15k thru half RACE pace for the race DREAM MARATHON PACE stated on the same page, then I'm on target.

Reread my post with this in mind.

Gotta run. More later...

--Jimmy

Jog Log
zzzzzzz

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posted May-18-2007 01:32 PM            

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