posted May-14-2007 03:45 PM               

quote:

---

Originally posted by CSuzette:
You need to converse with Total Effort on this site. He has a base of about 35 years.

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Total Effort I would like to chat with you. No search functions. Please e-mail me. Thanks for info. Nick

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posted May-15-2007 08:10 PM            

I've tried the couch-to-5k plan and got about 7 weeks into it before my heart rate really started getting out of control. It would creep up to 190+ while running at a relatively slow pace. I got kind of frustrated from that and decided to try something new, especially after realizing how out of shape I am. I'm 26 and already have borderline high blood pressure and cholesterol. Not really overweight or anything either, 5'10" 170 lbs. Thanks, dad. :/

Anyways, I started the training today, my calculated Maf HR should be around 149 (180 - 26 - 5). It's really hard to keep at it that, at my slowest running pace it shoots up to the 160s, and walking fast it stays around 135. I alternate and keep it at 150 average as best as I can. I did two miles today, first mile was 14:00 and the second around 16:00. Should I be running more miles than this? Will it even be beneficial? Any feedback is appreciated.

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posted May-15-2007 09:00 PM               

quote:

---

Originally posted by RacingThoughts:
Is Maf/low heart rate training recommended for people new to running?

I've tried the couch-to-5k plan and got about 7 weeks into it before my heart rate really started getting out of control. It would creep up to 190+ while running at a relatively slow pace. I got kind of frustrated from that and decided to try something new, especially after realizing how out of shape I am. I'm 26 and already have borderline high blood pressure and cholesterol. Not really overweight or anything either, 5'10" 170 lbs. Thanks, dad. :/

Anyways, I started the training today, my calculated Maf HR should be around 149 (180 - 26 - 5). It's really hard to keep at it that, at my slowest running pace it shoots up to the 160s, and walking fast it stays around 135. I alternate and keep it at 150 average as best as I can. I did two miles today, first mile was 14:00 and the second around 16:00. Should I be running more miles than this? Will it even be beneficial? Any feedback is appreciated.

---

I'm very wishy-washy on the subject of new runners trying MAF.
I generally suggest just running for a while, keeping the heart rate
as low as possible, until you develop comfort with running, then
start thinking about heart rate. On the other hand, I had been
running for a couple of years with a few marathons under my belt
before I started MAF running and my first pace was 17 minutes
per mile on the treadmill at MAF, so your pace isn't all that
wildly slow. Probably what I would lean
towards is to tell you to try it for 3 weeks or so and see what happens.
See if your pace slowly improves. Build up your mileage base a bit.
Ultimately, I think you can benefit from building up at MAF, but it's
not clear what progress you'll see as a new runner, but it's probably
worth a try.

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posted May-15-2007 09:15 PM               

1st mile - 8:13 hr 130
2nd 8:06 132
3rd 8:00 136
4 7:54 139
5 7:48 144
6 7:42 146
7 7:36 149
8 7:30 151
9 7:24 154

BR: 43 yr old male
Running on and off for last 3 yrs
in last life ran track and x-country entered mil and was in spec forces (PJ for a little)

I tried to do a max HR test after doing this but couldn't get above 172. I did a max HR about a yr - 1.5 yrs ago and had 183. Would it drop that much, or was it because I was alresdy semi-tired? That's not the real question though. If I was to try Maff (I am currently doing more of a Hadd thing) would I just use 136 or maybe a 141 as my pace?

Appreciate your take on this,
pj

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posted May-15-2007 09:31 PM               

quote:

---

Originally posted by Patriotsr1:
Hey Jesse,
Been following this thread off and on for a while. Just started running again in Jan (after 3 month layoff, sprained ankle from GOLF of all things) anyway, I just found my HR monitor and tried a HR test (sort of). I did mile pick ups and monitored HR throughout. Here's the data:

1st mile - 8:13 hr 130
2nd 8:06 132
3rd 8:00 136
4 7:54 139
5 7:48 144
6 7:42 146
7 7:36 149
8 7:30 151
9 7:24 154

BR: 43 yr old male
Running on and off for last 3 yrs
in last life ran track and x-country entered mil and was in spec forces (PJ for a little)

I tried to do a max HR test after doing this but couldn't get above 172. I did a max HR about a yr - 1.5 yrs ago and had 183. Would it drop that much, or was it because I was alresdy semi-tired? That's not the real question though. If I was to try Maff (I am currently doing more of a Hadd thing) would I just use 136 or maybe a 141 as my pace?

Appreciate your take on this,
pj

---

Max HR is a somewhat arbitrary quantity. It's always just a "peak"
heart rate under a given exercise and set of conditions. I doubt your
max has really gone down by 11 beats - more likely you just couldn't
get it maxed out. Given the pace/HR combos you achieved recently,
you're probably ok for 141, but still I would recommend you try 136
for a while and see what happens. Given that you have a good pace
going at 130, I would contend that you will see nice progress at
136 and below. See where it takes you. If you're using a Hadd approach,
you can probably safely assume 175 or so as a max. My guess is that
Hadd and Maffetone recommendations would be pretty close.

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posted May-15-2007 10:51 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by leitnerj:
I'm very wishy-washy on the subject of new runners trying MAF.
I generally suggest just running for a while, keeping the heart rate
as low as possible, until you develop comfort with running, then
start thinking about heart rate. On the other hand, I had been
running for a couple of years with a few marathons under my belt
before I started MAF running and my first pace was 17 minutes
per mile on the treadmill at MAF, so your pace isn't all that
wildly slow. Probably what I would lean
towards is to tell you to try it for 3 weeks or so and see what happens.
See if your pace slowly improves. Build up your mileage base a bit.
Ultimately, I think you can benefit from building up at MAF, but it's
not clear what progress you'll see as a new runner, but it's probably
worth a try.

---

Thanks for the advice. I'll probably stick with it for a while like you said and see how it goes.

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posted May-16-2007 07:11 AM            

Anyways, I started the training today, my calculated Maf HR should be around 149 (180 - 26 - 5). It's really hard to keep at it that, at my slowest running pace it shoots up to the 160s, and walking fast it stays around 135. I alternate and keep it at 150 average as best as I can. I did two miles today, first mile was 14:00 and the second around 16:00. Should I be running more miles than this? Will it even be beneficial? Any feedback is appreciated.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
quote: leitnerj
I'm very wishy-washy on the subject of new runners trying MAF. I generally suggest just running for a while, keeping the heart rate as low as possible, until you develop comfort with running, then start thinking about heart rate. On the other hand, I had been running for a couple of years with a few marathons under my belt before I started MAF running and my first pace was 17 minutes per mile on the treadmill at MAF, so your pace isn't all that wildly slow. Probably what I would lean towards is to tell you to try it for 3 weeks or so and see what happens. See if your pace slowly improves. Build up your mileage base a bit. Ultimately, I think you can benefit from building up at MAF, but it's not clear what progress you'll see as a new runner, but it's probably worth a try.
/end quote/

I just experienced the same thing this morning and I was going to ask just about the same question. I just graduated from C25K today, but my run was awful. I had to stop at a porta pot due to really bad intestinal cramping. I decided that since I had already walked a whole bunch and stopped that I'd try to hit my MAF which I set at 145 (180-25-10). It was really really hard! Its like I have to power walk so fast to get it up but as soon as i settle into a SLOW jog, it sky rockets (well, to 160ish). It was really demoralizing. I think I'm just going to go for the rest of the summer at a slow jog, though not necessarily as low as MAF, and maybe try MAF again in January. I figure that'll give me a good couple months to get my feet under me and in Jan I might be forced onto the treadmill where it might be easier to hold a pace by jogging instead of power walking or doing a walk/jog combo.

Glad to see another total Newbie on this thread!

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posted May-16-2007 08:13 AM            

From what I remember while doing the couch-to-5k plan, it was easier to to keep my heart rate down while running on a treadmill. I may give that a shot too.

[This message has been edited by RacingThoughts (edited May-16-2007).]

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posted May-16-2007 08:55 AM               

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posted May-16-2007 09:14 AM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by RacingThoughts:
Is Maf/low heart rate training recommended for people new to running?

I've tried the couch-to-5k plan and got about 7 weeks into it before my heart rate really started getting out of control. It would creep up to 190+ while running at a relatively slow pace. I got kind of frustrated from that and decided to try something new, especially after realizing how out of shape I am. I'm 26 and already have borderline high blood pressure and cholesterol. Not really overweight or anything either, 5'10" 170 lbs. Thanks, dad. :/

Anyways, I started the training today, my calculated Maf HR should be around 149 (180 - 26 - 5). It's really hard to keep at it that, at my slowest running pace it shoots up to the 160s, and walking fast it stays around 135. I alternate and keep it at 150 average as best as I can. I did two miles today, first mile was 14:00 and the second around 16:00. Should I be running more miles than this? Will it even be beneficial? Any feedback is appreciated.

---

I essentially started using maf when I began running last summer. Well, I was averaging 12 mpw maybe before I started using it.

I was running around 10:30 minute miles at first, and even then once I got up to 3 or 4 miles it would it rapidly start increasing. (due to lack of endurance, no doubt) Today I'm down to about 8:45 minute miles outdoors on rolling hills.

Since then I've lost another 20 pounds and run over 1800 miles, 2 marathons, and dropped my 5K time from 25:40 to 21:11. I would estimate at least 97% of those miles (excluding races) were run below MAF. (I'm 36)

While I can't really answer your question, I do know that if you stick with it, you will become much less likely to get injured. Since you don't have to lose weight like I did, you should be able to increase your mileage fairly easily.

Regardless, it will get better, especially as your gradually build up your mileage. You might even want to consider forgoing the extra 5 bpm and just go with 180 - 26 for now.

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posted May-16-2007 05:11 PM            

[This message has been edited by RacingThoughts (edited May-16-2007).]

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posted May-16-2007 11:24 PM            

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posted May-16-2007 11:41 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by Foxdog449:
Hi, I'm a newbie also. If you were going to buy one book for starts on this type of training by Hadd, Maffatone, etc. Which one would it be and where can I buy this book? Thanks in advance.....Foxdog449

---

Both of these will serve you well:

Training For Endurance by Phil Maffetone:
http://www.pccoach.com/products/books/book_fit_t4e.htm

Heart Rate Training for the Compleat Idiot by John Parker:
http://www.amazon.com/Heart-Monitor-Training-Compleat-Idiot/dp/0915297256

Good luck!

--Jimmy

Jog Log
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posted May-16-2007 11:53 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by RacingThoughts:
Thanks for the advice. I'm definitely going to keep it up. I feel good today, no soreness or anything. I don't feel like I did enough yesterday though, so I'll probably do 3-4 miles tomorrow instead of 2 and see how that feels. Do people generally run more miles or run more often with maf training than they normally would since it's less intense?

[This message has been edited by RacingThoughts (edited May-16-2007).]

---

It will feel easier and allow you to build miles a bit easier, but don't ignore the sound advice I've received from the running elders. When I have, I paid for it.

Think on these:

--follow a hard day/ recovery day approach. Have 2-3 hard or higher mileage runs per week, and have all the others be lower mileage recovery runs or complete running rest.

--Whatever amount of miles you are starting at, build by no more than 10% per week.

--cut back miles at least 20% every 4th week for recovery. Then start up where you left off the next week.

--build your longest run by a mile every week or two. When you get up to 17+, do them every other week.

--if you feel exhausted and dead, run less or rest for the day

--If you are doing high volume, be careful with hard racing at the same time. If you do some hard races during high volume periods, give ample recovery time before you begin the high mileage and real long runs again.

There ya go. Take it or leave it. Build miles, but don't get carried away. Take you time. You don't become a Karno overnight. I tried to go Karno a little last year and gave myself a nice booboo. Ignored a few of the above principles.

Good luck.

--Jimmy

Jog Log
zzzzzzz

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posted May-17-2007 12:01 AM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by RacingThoughts:
Is Maf/low heart rate training recommended for people new to running?

I've tried the couch-to-5k plan and got about 7 weeks into it before my heart rate really started getting out of control. It would creep up to 190+ while running at a relatively slow pace. I got kind of frustrated from that and decided to try something new, especially after realizing how out of shape I am. I'm 26 and already have borderline high blood pressure and cholesterol. Not really overweight or anything either, 5'10" 170 lbs. Thanks, dad. :/

Anyways, I started the training today, my calculated Maf HR should be around 149 (180 - 26 - 5). It's really hard to keep at it that, at my slowest running pace it shoots up to the 160s, and walking fast it stays around 135. I alternate and keep it at 150 average as best as I can. I did two miles today, first mile was 14:00 and the second around 16:00. Should I be running more miles than this? Will it even be beneficial? Any feedback is appreciated.

---

What you are doing is great. Walk if you have to, and build miles a little every week, slowly. Remember that you are building endurance, so as time goes by, keep challenging your volume limit--give yourself something to endure.

It's a tough realization to see how unfit you are, but that is so completely temporary and in your control. You are playing it very smarty by putting on the HRM and doing what it takes to keep aerobic. A year from now, you will be amazing yourself, if not sooner. Remember to observe the recovery principles and hard/easy approach handed down by the elders.
They work (they are in my above post).

Keep going. You are capable of amazing things! Your friends and family will be afraid of you and your feats before you know it!

--Jimmy

Jog Log
zzzzzzz

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posted May-17-2007 07:40 AM            

The Good ... I'm slowly building my mileage (currently in the low 30's) and running 5 days/week and I feel great. I came to the training after an injury layoff and while my injury wasn't 100% healed I have been getting better each week. I don't have near the number and intensity of little aches and pains that I used to carry with me.

The Bad ... running this slowly is painfully frustrating! Yes, I like not feeling worn out, but I can't help but wonder if I feel rested because I'm not doing enough! There were a few days of warm weather and that coupled with hills really forced me to drop my pace to stay under my MAF (180 - 47 = 133). ("Dr. Maffetone? May I please purchase a few extra bpm? PLEEEAAASSSE?!")

I had the same question as posted recently about increasing mileage. Feeling relatively strong, the temptation is to increase mileage more aggressively than one might have in the past. I will resist that temptation!

While I'm doing this "experiment" I'm not completely sold on the science behind it. Whatever the reason, I do believe that someone like me, who never could achieve "high" mileage because of injury, could benefit from this approach. Through trial and error I learned to avoid speedwork and accumulate miles. I'm hoping that running at this lower intensity will allow me to eventually build to higher mileage levels than I've achieved in the past.

The experiment continues ...

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posted May-17-2007 08:13 AM            

[This message has been edited by RacingThoughts (edited May-17-2007).]

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posted May-17-2007 12:36 PM               

Dave, how did Ice Age feel? I see you ran sub 10...

Jesse, good job at Promise Land...I've run that several times.

Latest news is I'm moving back to NH...

Still doing the Low HR thing! San Juan Solstice 50 in 4 weeks and Hardrock 100 in 8 weeks!
This coming weekend I'm sweeping the Jemez 50 here in NM.

Keep up the great work,
Steve

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posted May-17-2007 05:49 PM            

If I shoot you an e-mail, can you send me the previous iterations of this thread?

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posted May-17-2007 06:05 PM            

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posted May-17-2007 06:18 PM            

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posted May-17-2007 06:33 PM            

My local library had several of Maff's books in the system, had 2 waiting for me in less than a week. Only took an evening to read through them.

Best of luck with low heart rate training, it feels great!

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posted May-17-2007 07:11 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by zeba:
Has any female runner had success with this kind of training ?
I have mostly heard men describe their success stories.

---

Last I checked, I was a woman. Should I check again?

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posted May-17-2007 07:17 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by willamona:
Last I checked, I was a woman. Should I check again?

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sorry, i think i may have missed your story in this long post

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posted May-17-2007 07:24 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by zeba:
sorry, i think i may have missed your story in this long post

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Short version. In 6 months, I took an hour off of my marathon time. I am now training for my next marathon. I only use MAF to base build.

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