Cool Running :: Basebuilding, low heart rate training, a la Maffetone and Mark Allen

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Basebuilding, low heart rate training, a la Maffetone and Mark Allen

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Author	Topic: Basebuilding, low heart rate training, a la Maffetone and Mark Allen
Mobius Cool Runner	posted May-10-2007 01:08 PM Monika - my HR was always higher in the morning also -- by about 10 bpm, and this was getting up at 7 and running at 9 or 10. I tried drinking differently, eating differently, showering/not, caffeine/not, etc. I don't have an update on it though because I don't run in the mornings anymore. Not by design, it just doesn't work out that way now that the family has gotten bigger by 1. IP: Logged
jjwaverly42 Cool Runner	posted May-10-2007 02:09 PM I've never done this comparison, because I always run in the morning. Perhaps you're a bit more dehydrated in the morning since you haven't had any regular hydration overnight. Just a theory. --Jimmy Jog Log zzzzzzz IP: Logged
Long Run Nick Cool Runner	posted May-10-2007 04:11 PM Oh Guys, This MAF stuff is not for sissies. Jesse advised to work with a 125--yeow!! I did an 8 miler avg 130--11:30 per mile. I think I have felt better the last miles of a marathon. It was warm --mid 70's and not real humid--Florida-you know. My legs felt terrible. It may well be true that it is tough to teach an old horse new tricks. As I have mentioned, I have always trained 2-3 minutes slower than my current race pace. Normally around 70% of my max (200). So running 140's generate about a 10:15 to 10:30 mile once I have warmed up several miles--at like 120-130 HR. When I trained for ultras in the old Days I would run 70% HR for 27 min and walk 3. I would be out 4-5-6 hrs and probably ended up averging between 65-70% though HR would drift depending on temps/humidity and fatigue. For the last several years I run 10 min and walk 1 on my EZ longer runs. I think I am to a place that has resulted in me still loving running after 31 yrs and over 63,000 miles w/o too much "scientific" interference. Rarely injured/relatively competitive in my age group and looking forward to another 63,000 miles. I was disappointed I didn't get in under 4 hrs in Feb. in my first marathon in 21 yrs, but I know what I didn't do right. I plan on working on a MAF formula that works for me. I am thinking I have been pretty close to right on for lots of years. I will definetly run some easier stuff than what I am use to. By most folks standards I train slower than a turtle. Race day I have surprised a lot of folks over the years. I have lived and run with the a philosphy that isn't quite as radical as at least my MAF 125 HR appears to be for me. But then I don't think there are too many 63 yr old runners with 3 decades of consistent running(63K + miles) to base the simple formula of 180-age. The old stand by 220-age would give me a max of 157. As I mentioned I can get to 200 in a race if I am hammering at the end. I usually average in the low 190's for 5K/10K races. All that said I appreciate Jesse and marvel at his accomplishments. The system has definitely worked for him. I plan on continuing to read this thread and jump in with some comments I will call "The World According To Nick". Please continue to have fun with your running--and do yourself a favor--don't ever take yourself too seriously. Nick IP: Logged
Docster Cool Runner	posted May-10-2007 04:55 PM quote: Originally posted by leitnerj: By the way, are others having as much trouble as I am accessing the FAQ? Do you get some sort of windows live space error? Is it time to move it to another site? I also have it crosslisted under "running articles" at www.myjjk.com, but I don't maintain it there so there's some out of date stuff. It's working fine for me. Still having problems, Jesse? IP: Logged
dfcameron Cool Runner	posted May-10-2007 05:41 PM I'll mirror Nick's responses. I've been running since 1978. I'm 44 years old (started in H.S. cross country). Early in my running years I ran the way I was taught in H.S. - do lots of fast stuff; get some sort of base. I ended up doing fine in my teens, but got injured as I got into my 20s. Since I've been logging my miles, I have about 35,000 (I didn't start logging in 1978). Over the last several years, I've tended to train slower than most of my running friends on most of my runs, but race faster. Our training differences are that I often run about 10:00 min/mi pace for most runs; but will do an occasional pick up to about 7:00 min/mi pace for just the last half mile. They'll be more likely to run 9:00 min/mi pace throughout. Fast forward to a marathon; I finish in 3:30, they finish in 3:40. They can't figure it out. When I've deviated; got greedy - did more runs anaerobically or even above MAF - I either get injured again, or actually get worse - closer to the 3:40. Not only have I now been a runner for 29 years, but I still enjoy it when left to train smartly. IP: Logged
kuan Cool Runner	posted May-10-2007 10:32 PM What's the blood lactate level at MAF? IP: Logged
sansmap Member	posted May-10-2007 10:35 PM quote: Originally posted by monikam: It's my first week of MAFing.. Today was warmer and humid and I had to slow down to 20 min miles to stay within my target zone which is 145-150. Before MAF I was running 10:30 mm average.. Somebody please tell me this is normal.. because I heard of 16 or 17 mm but never of 20mm.. I can walk faster but I don't want to walk.. I want to run and that means I have to go super slow.. Advice?? Hi, Monikam I find the heat makes a big difference. A lot of that work the heart is doing is to keep us cool. Tonight I ran the same 6 mile route I ran on Tuesday, but it was ten degrees warmer. I couldn't figure out why I was running so much slower until I saw the thermometer near the end of my run. There are plenty of things that can make a difference on any given day, but temperature is surely a big one. sansmap www.sub-5.blogspot.com [This message has been edited by sansmap (edited May-10-2007).] IP: Logged
slowgino Cool Runner	posted May-10-2007 10:52 PM quote: Originally posted by Long Run Nick: When I trained for ultras in the old Days I would run 70% HR for 27 min and walk 3. I would be out 4-5-6 hrs and probably ended up averging between 65-70% though HR would drift depending on temps/humidity and fatigue. For the last several years I run 10 min and walk 1 on my EZ longer runs. It's great to hear from you, Nick. Welcome aboard. The training you describe above sounds absolutely great. ...I was disappointed I didn't get in under 4 hrs in Feb. in my first marathon in 21 yrs, but I know what I didn't do right. I plan on working on a MAF formula that works for me. I am thinking I have been pretty close to right on for lots of years. You are going to do marathons a lot faster than that. I remember two local runners that I'm reminded of when I read your first post. One ran a 2:42 marathon at age 64, a 2:52 at age 68, and a 1:01:50 15K at age 71. The other guy had been a bicycle racer in Europe. I remember him very fondly, he was a great guy. Frans ran a 3:48 50K at age 62, but I really remember him for the 6:24 in his first 50-mile race at age 60, where he set a national age-group record. You are absolutely right when you say a MAF formula that works for me. IMHO because of your age and training history it's almost certain that the formulas won't work to tell you your "Maximun Aerobic Function" (MAF) limit for easy heart-rate training. In the database of VO2 tests I got to look at, there were 2 runners in their 60s in "pretty good" shape from easy distance training. One had an Aerobic Threshold (AeT) which was 80% of his MHR, and the other had an AeT over 85% of his MHR. I would love to have you get VO2 tested. Hey, I'll even pitch in to help cover the cost of the test if necessary... (did I just say that?... yes I guess I did!) ... By most folks standards I train slower than a turtle. Race day I have surprised a lot of folks over the years. I have lived and run with a philosphy that isn't quite as radical as at least my MAF 125 HR appears to be for me. But then I don't think there are too many 63 yr old runners with 3 decades of consistent running(63K + miles) to base the simple formula of 180-age. The old stand by 220-age would give me a max of 157. As I mentioned I can get to 200 in a race if I am hammering at the end. I usually average in the low 190's for 5K/10K races. You are exactly right! 220-age doesn't work for you and 180-age almost certainly doesn't either. Your heart rates for 5K and 10K races match up with exactly what one would expect from your MHR according to the table "RACING AND TRAINING PULSES" under "Target Pulse Rates for Training" in this teamoregon page: www.teamoregon.com/publications/pulsrate.html Notice that for "easy 20 mi training" you have HR < 150, "marathon race pace" has HR 170, etc. As the authors say, if you've measured your MHR use the closest column instead and ignore the age. Of course, VO2 test results would really be the way to get optimum training and racing HR ranges. Nick, I'm absolutely in awe at what you've done with consistent training. In looking at your PRs from a few decades ago and comparing them with mine from a similar time, you were quite a bit faster than I was (my age 40 15K PR 59:26). I have no doubt that you could have been an under 2:45 marathoner back then, and you could definitely be at or under 3:30 at age 65+ (that last might be too conservative.) No doubt at all. Just my opinion, of course, but I can do the math. There must be a lot of us here who are totally blown away by the fact that your MHR and 5K, 10K, etc race pace HRs are exactly what one expects for someone 1/3 your age! Wow. Let us know how it goes with your training. Gino IP: Logged
jjwaverly42 Cool Runner	posted May-10-2007 11:47 PM When commiting to a period of MAF training, I believe one has to let go of any ideas on how fast you should be running, or how your HR should be behaving. You just do what you have to do. If that means walking some, then you have to do it. In a period I did last year, there were a few times, when it was hot, that I slowed to 14:00. There are fluctuations and extremes as you go. What you are looking for is an overall trend of improvement over time. Take a look at my 2006 Jog Log, I did a period at the beginning of the year, and one for 8-weeks starting in September to prepare for Philly Marathon. Notice how slow my paces were, and they improved only about 1:30 ish in 8 weeks and a ton of miles. Still that made a half-marathon pretty easy and the Philly Marathon a nice PR. In the beginning of the year, the paces were slow and improved by about the same amount. I was able to run Boston as a training run for Sugarloaf in under 4 hours and still make 3:30 for a BQ at Sugarloaf a month later.( In retrospect, I think running Boston was a training mistake, as when I was done, I felt like I ran a hard marathon. Not a good thing for me to run a 26.2 4-5 weeks out from a goal marathon. Took something out of my legs at Sugarloaf. It was a strange winter...death...injury...Toronto...couldn't train for Boston like I wanted...so I picked Sugarloaf...I digress...Moe, please slap me). The point being, I was running paces that were way slower than the training paces recommended by many coaches that base their pacing on calculations off certain race times. I was a sub-3:30 marathoner suddenly running 11-12:00 miles again. Yet I still improved. That can be hard to take for some, but if you're truly committed, you take it and go with it. Not worrying about those days where you are slowing to a crawl to stay under your mark. Even though it seems nothing is happening, something is happening. It's all part of the experiment. Also, notice that at some point, I added tempo runs (LT and MRP). Still keeping more than 80% of miles under MAF. Important to eventually add some speed to the mix, whether it be races or tempo runs. After a period of base training, this wakes your legs up, and suddenly paces REALLY drop quickly. Good luck and keep going! Suck up those slow days, even if they are ALL slow! Don't stop until you are burning more fat than a whale oil lamp. --Jimmy Jog Log zzzzzzz [This message has been edited by jjwaverly42 (edited May-10-2007).] IP: Logged
leitnerj Cool Runner	posted May-11-2007 04:27 AM quote: Originally posted by Docster: It's working fine for me. Still having problems, Jesse? Yeah, I still can't access it - at least from home. Hmm, funny. ------------------ MyRunningLog MyStuff Low Heart Rate Training FAQ My marathons and ultras My races and reports IP: Logged
jjwaverly42 Cool Runner	posted May-11-2007 07:42 AM quote: Originally posted by leitnerj: Yeah, I still can't access it - at least from home. Hmm, funny. Downloaded in 2 seconds, Jesse. 8:03 EST. --JJ IP: Logged
dfcameron Cool Runner	posted May-11-2007 08:17 AM Kuan asked what the blood lactate level is at MAF. From what I know, I'd say a little under 2.0 IP: Logged
Long Run Nick Cool Runner	posted May-11-2007 01:26 PM Slowgino, Nice post thanks. Looking back, as well as now, and into the future, my race times have been the least important part of my running. The most important part has been being grateful/greatful for the ability to do what I do and the passion and energy I have. If I never qualify for Boston, I will still consider my life complete. Thanks for taking the time to post. Continue to enjoy the journey. Nick IP: Logged
corland14 Cool Runner	posted May-12-2007 12:52 PM I posted some stuff back on page 28. Aharmer had some questions and I felt compelled to post an update. Well here's my 25k - mile splits. Interval 1 Mi 8:23 133 Interval 1 Mi 7:59 142 Interval 1 Mi 8:09 140 Interval 1 Mi 8:08 141 Interval 1 Mi 7:58 145 Interval 1 Mi 8:00 146 Interval 1 Mi 8:07 145 Interval 1 Mi 8:05 147 Interval 1 Mi 8:08 151 Interval 1 Mi 8:18 150 Interval 1 Mi 8:05 153 Interval 1 Mi 8:12 156 Interval 1 Mi 8:10 154 Interval 1 Mi 8:24 158 Interval 1 Mi 8:17 161 Interval 0.53 Mi 4:19 167 finished 2:06:42 Two years ago it was 2:33 Last year it was 2:17 Its moving bit by bit closer to my appropriate pace. I ran a 5k a few years back in 22:09 I ran a 5k last year in 20:50 I know I could flirt with 20 minutes right now. McMillian would have me running a 1:51 25k based on that predicted 5k. I've done a TON of basework using Maff approach over the past couple of years. I cant help thinking that my blood pressure med (beta-blocker, diuretic) is screwing up my base work. Although I've moved closer to an appropriate longer distance pace, its still a ways off. Today I was pushing hard down the stretch and could only manage to hit 173 on the HR monitor. I'm 31 years old and have been training at a max Maff pace of 139 (180-31-10 for BP med). Usually run around 135. Somethings up. I go see the doc Wed. I'm changing my med. Hopefully it will help. IP: Logged
leitnerj Cool Runner	posted May-12-2007 01:21 PM quote: Originally posted by jjwaverly42: Downloaded in 2 seconds, Jesse. 8:03 EST. --JJ Must be some kind of java issue with the newer mac browsers. I can get in fine using my internet explorer which hasn't been updated in years. Can't get in with safari and firefox for whatever reason. Netscape works fine as well. ------------------ MyRunningLog MyStuff Low Heart Rate Training FAQ My marathons and ultras My races and reports [This message has been edited by leitnerj (edited May-12-2007).] IP: Logged
pismodiver Cool Runner	posted May-12-2007 03:31 PM quote: Originally posted by leitnerj: Must be some kind of java issue with the newer mac browsers. I can get in fine using my internet explorer which hasn't been updated in years. Can't get in with safari and firefox for whatever reason. Netscape works fine as well. I can access it without any problems using Safari and Firefox on my Mac. IP: Logged
leitnerj Cool Runner	posted May-12-2007 03:38 PM quote: Originally posted by pismodiver: I can access it without any problems using Safari and Firefox on my Mac. Which versions of each (boy, am I highjacking my own thread here, but it's for the good of all of us macusers anyway ...)? Somehow I think my problems started when I upgraded each. ------------------ MyRunningLog MyStuff Low Heart Rate Training FAQ My marathons and ultras My races and reports IP: Logged
pismodiver Cool Runner	posted May-12-2007 05:33 PM quote: Originally posted by leitnerj: Which versions of each (boy, am I highjacking my own thread here, but it's for the good of all of us macusers anyway ...)? Somehow I think my problems started when I upgraded each. Safari 2.0.4 and Firefox 2.0.0.3 on an iSight iMac(PPC)...I believe they are the latest versions. We are talking about the FAQ in your sig block, correct? IP: Logged
leitnerj Cool Runner	posted May-12-2007 05:49 PM quote: Originally posted by pismodiver: Safari 2.0.4 and Firefox 2.0.0.3 on an iSight iMac(PPC)...I believe they are the latest versions. We are talking about the FAQ in your sig block, correct? Same firefox version, not safari. Oh well. Thanks. Yup, same FAQ. I'm done. End of current hijack. ------------------ MyRunningLog MyStuff Low Heart Rate Training FAQ My marathons and ultras My races and reports IP: Logged
Mobius Cool Runner	posted May-12-2007 07:44 PM Re: FAQ load... Based on the activity report in Safari (2.0.3) and Firebug net report (Firefox 1.5.0.9 -- I need to update!) there are a lot of issues getting data from one of the ad servers that msn uses. Safari took about 3 mintues to load the page, though it was really just waiting for the ads. I use adblock on Firefox so it came up pretty quickly, but there were still a few files that took a long time to return (so -- not your problem). Many JS errors in both browsers, all related to the MSN spaces stuff. IP: Logged
jjwaverly42 Cool Runner	posted May-14-2007 12:35 AM Sox came back and are 8 up on the Yankees, Dreamz hurt Yauman badly, and Tony gets it now. What an entertainment day Sunday was. Oh, yeah, I made it to 38 miles this week. Not a record, but it sure feels good. --Jimmy Jog Log zzzzzzz IP: Logged
Ace8 Member	posted May-14-2007 10:51 AM I started low-rate heart training this past week and wanted to post a beginning report. It will help me to keep organized and motivated if I post here from time-to-time, so I may include some details here that most will not care to read. However, if anyone wants to read and provide any suggestions, I'm all ears. My vitals: 34 years old, 5' 7", 130 lbs, MAF=146 My PRs: 22:19 (5k), 46:39 (10k) My running history: Pre-2005: None 2005: I ran a little in the summer of '05 to prepare for a local 2.5 mile race. I injured my left ankle (tendonitis) and quit running. 2006: I did some rehab on my left ankle and started some run/walk in June. I ran a few local 5ks in the summer. I trained for and ran a 10k on Thanksgiving- had some minor tendonitis in my right ankle during 10k training. I ended the year by hurting my right hip (bursitis) on 12/31 when I ran too far/too fast. 2007: I struggled through hip bursitis most of the year so far, but it's finally gone. I ran a 5k in March. In April I started increasing my training for an upcoming 10k and injured my right knee (slight case of runner's knee). I competed the 10k in early May. My heart rate was 204 AHR, 217 MHR in both races. I am healthy now for the most part (I can just barely feel my right hip from time-to-time while running). 18-month goals: increase mileage base without getting the nagging injuries, complete a half-marathon and marathon. I have no races planned until Sept '07. Anyway- here's my first week of MAF trainng. I am pretty excited as my Friday/Sunday runs actually felt normal, like I could keep a decent enough pace and stride somewhat normally. I don't have the slightest bit of the typical inflammation-type injuries from my 9 miles yesterday that I certainly would have had based on my previous training methods. 5/7/2007: 3 miles, 11:40 pace, 133 AHR 5/8/2007: 30 minutes elliptical, 132 AHR 5/9/2007: 5 miles, 11:16 pace, 138 AHR 5/10/2007: Rest 5/11/2007 2.1 miles, 10:18 pace, 138 AHR 5/12/2007: 49 minutes elliptcal, 128 AHR 5/13/2007 2 miles, 11:35 pace, 127 AHR (MAF test warm-up) 5/13//2007 5 miles, 10:20 pace (7.5% decay miles 1-5), 145 AHR (MAF test) 5/13/2007 2 miles, 11:29 pace, 139 AHR (MAF test cool down) For awhile, at least, I am going to avoid running back-to-back days and mix in elliptical twice a week. I am going to increase milage by about 2 miles a week for the next month, and probably have a lighter recovery week 1 out of every 4 weeks. [This message has been edited by Ace8 (edited May-14-2007).] IP: Logged
CSuzette Cool Runner	posted May-14-2007 11:26 AM quote: Originally posted by Long Run Nick: Oh Guys, IBut then I don't think there are too many 63 yr old runners with 3 decades of consistent running(63K + miles) to base the simple formula of 180-age. The old stand by 220-age would give me a max of 157. As I mentioned I can get to 200 in a race if I am hammering at the end. I usually average in the low 190's for 5K/10K races. You need to converse with Total Effort on this site. He has a base of about 35 years. IP: Logged
Long Run Nick Cool Runner	posted May-14-2007 03:39 PM quote: Originally posted by CSuzette: You need to converse with Total Effort on this site. He has a base of about 35 years. Do we have a search function? I would love to get in touch with Total Effort. Total Effort--if you are out there, please e-mail me. Thanks. Nick IP: Logged
Long Run Nick Cool Runner	posted May-14-2007 03:41 PM quote: Originally posted by CSuzette: You need to converse with Total Effort on this site. He has a base of about 35 years. Do we have a search function? I would love to get in touch with Total Effort. Total Effort--if you are out there, please e-mail me. Thanks. Nick IP: Logged

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